Gustave Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave I'm sure Ellen said this as well, right? The Bible teaches it, but yes Ellen has something to say: “The teaching given in regard to what is termed ‘holy flesh’ is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. . . . Not a soul of you has holy flesh now. . . . It is an impossibility. If those who speak so freely of perfection in the flesh could see things in the true light, they would recoil with horror from their presumptuous ideas. . . . Let this phase of doctrine be carried a little further, and it will lead to the claim that its advocates cannot sin, that since they have holy flesh, their actions are all holy. What a door of temptation would thus be opened! . . . " And that's what your church teaches - the unholy doctrine of infused grace. The RCC is mother of legalism & self-righteousness. That's how they could burn those who they disagreed with at the sake & yet think they were doing righteousness. They were sick, unholy individuals deceived by their own nature.... That wasn't a very good red herring Overaged! What you quoted had nothing to do with the second death at all..... ...The Holy felsh movment within SDAism is summarized below. Selected Messages chapter 3 intro "The Holy Flesh theory alleged that those who follow the Saviour must have their fallen natures perfected by passing through a “Garden of Gethsemane” experience... Eyewitness accounts report that in their services the fanatics worked up a high pitch of excitement by use of musical instruments such as organs, flutes, fiddles, tambourines, horns, and even a big bass drum. They sought a physical demonstration and shouted and prayed and sang until someone in the congregation would fall, prostrate and unconscious, from his seat. One or two men, walking up and down the aisle for the purpose, would drag the fallen person up on the rostrum. Then about a dozen individuals would gather around the prostrate body, some singing, some shouting, and some praying, all at the same time. When the subject revived, he was counted among those who had passed through the Gethsemane experience, had obtained holy flesh, and had translation faith. Thereafter, it was asserted, he could not sin and would never die" They thought that these odd theatrics would prevent the FIRST DEATH..... ...Thereby providing an impossibility for the to participate in the 2nd death. ...They would become like Enoch - who Ellen visited on an alien planet. ...Who didn't experience the 2nd death. The 2nd death is "spiritual death" of which there is no coming back from.... ...It is reserved for those who rejected God. ...Try again Overaged.
miz3 Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Those are symbols. Come on over to the reality of the gospel as taught by Paul. It's called the "in Christ" motif. No Sonny these are not symbols. The OT sanctuary system was symbolic. What God did by placing our sins on Jesus Christ is REAL! Jesus Christ did not die a "symbolic death", the sins placed on Jesus Christ were not "symbolic sins", the blood shed was not "symbolic blood", the cross was not a "symbolic cross. NO! NO! NO! These were all REAL! The Gospel is not a "symbolic gospel". Again NO! NO! NO! The Gospel is a REAL GOSPEL!
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 You are the one who is teaching that at the incarnation God "infused" our sinful nature into Jesus Christ. I never said this. You are confused.
Overaged Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Those are symbols. Come on over to the reality of the gospel as taught by Paul. It's called the "in Christ" motif. No Sonny these are not symbols. The OT sanctuary system was symbolic. What God did by placing our sins on Jesus Christ is REAL! Jesus Christ did not die a "symbolic death", the sins placed on Jesus Christ were not "symbolic sins", the blood shed was not "symbolic blood", the cross was not a "symbolic cross. NO! NO! NO! These were all REAL! The Gospel is not a "symbolic gospel". Again NO! NO! NO! The Gospel is a REAL GOSPEL! The gospel is simply wonderful; and wonderfully simple. You make it very confusing; and not so wonderful "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 The sins were placed on that lamb and the lamb was killed as punishment.
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Quote: NO! NO! NO! These were all REAL! The Gospel is not a "symbolic gospel". Again NO! NO! NO! The Gospel is a REAL GOSPEL! You are losing your mind....
Overaged Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 That wasn't a very good red herring Overaged! What you quoted had nothing to do with the second death at all..... ...The Holy felsh movment within SDAism is summarized below. ...Try again Overaged. Gustave! You need to go to Pay Attention School! You are addressing me here when I did not make this post to you...LOL; but thanks for teaching me the new phrase "maggoty teaching!" I will add that to my list of Insults For Adventists 101. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Sonny Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny So how can God take you, miz3, to heaven and still maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns you to the 2nd death? yes? miz3 - please answer this.
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Therefore the only humanity that need saving was OUR humanity - indwelt with iniquity. Hence our corporate life from Mary was united with Christ's Divinity and in this union Christ answered all the demands of the law. That's infusion! Not Biblical!
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 The gospel is simply wonderful; and wonderfully simple. You make it very confusing; and not so wonderful WRONG! What I said was quite simple. What you and Sonny are advocating is actually very, very complicated. In addition, what you advocate is not Biblical. Simple: God placed our sins on Jesus Christ! Done deal. No infusions, no complex symbolism, no twisted assertions. Yes what I said is Biblical and it is wonderful, it is simple!
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 So how can God take you, miz3, to heaven and still maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns you to the 2nd death? I already answered this question. Were you not paying attention? Or, Maybe you didn't like my answer but my answer was taken from the Bible and it was so simple a child could understand it. You can ask the question a hundred times and my answer remains the same. I do know the answer and I have already told you the answer. You think by continually asking the question it will appear like I didn't answer? I did answer but you can believe what you want.
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: overaged The gospel is simply wonderful; and wonderfully simple. You make it very confusing; and not so wonderful WRONG! What I said was quite simple. What you and Sonny are advocating is actually very, very complicated. In addition, what you advocate is not Biblical. Simple: God placed our sins on Jesus Christ! Done deal. No infusions, no complex symbolism, no twisted assertions. Yes what I said is Biblical and it is wonderful, it is simple! I don't think you really know what I advocate...although I am sure you will say you do. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Therefore the only humanity that need saving was OUR humanity - indwelt with iniquity. Hence our corporate life from Mary was united with Christ's Divinity and in this union Christ answered all the demands of the law. That's infusion! Not Biblical! No. It's RC Mutation "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 I don't think you really know what I advocate...although I am sure you will say you do. I do know that you accused me of being confusing when in fact I was nothing of the kind. I was very direct and simple. I was also most importantly Biblical!
Gustave Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 My apologies Overaged - that must be why Sonny never answered me.... ...do you agree with what Sonny said in that post? ...Would that be your same reasoning?
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Therefore the only humanity that need saving was OUR humanity - indwelt with iniquity. Hence our corporate life from Mary was united with Christ's Divinity and in this union Christ answered all the demands of the law. That's infusion! Not Biblical! No, infusion is where God makes a believer righteous the moment that person is justified. Of course this isn't Biblical.
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny So how can God take you, miz3, to heaven and still maintain integrity to His law that justly condemns you to the 2nd death? I did answer but you can believe what you want. No you didn't...You said God can do what He wants and it isn't sin. So He can lie, kill, manipulate, take fits, etc....He can do it and it's okay, but if we do it then it's sin. This is hypocrisy to the highest order. I wouldn't give a god like this the time of day.
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 The 2nd death is "spiritual death" of which there is no coming back from.... No, the 2nd death is where God abandons you with no hope of resurrection because you have ultimately and persistently rejected the gospel.
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 No, infusion is where God makes a believer righteous the moment that person is justified. Of course this isn't Biblical. I was not talking about what you say above. What you are saying about Jesus Christ carrying in is inner parts our sin, that and that alone is what I am labeling as your Doctrine of Infusion. If you want me to call it Sonny's Doctrine of Infusion, to differentiate from other types of "infusion". Ok! Sonny's type of infusion is not Biblical. Jesus Christ did not have any sin regardless of source "infused" (sonny's type of infusion) into His inner nature in any way shape or form.
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: overaged I don't think you really know what I advocate...although I am sure you will say you do. I do know that you accused me of being confusing when in fact I was nothing of the kind. I was very direct and simple. I was also most importantly Biblical! Well; you could look at this two ways. One. I am accusing you. Two. I am just sharing honestly how it is all starting to sound to me. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 No you didn't...You said God can do what He wants and it isn't sin. So He can lie, kill, manipulate, take fits, etc....He can do it and it's okay, but if we do it then it's sin. This is hypocrisy to the highest order. I wouldn't give a god like this the time of day. First, I did not make that claim in regard to how God saves me. God saves me by placing my sins on Jesus Christ while Christ was on the Cross. God placed those sins on Christ the same way the Jews sins were placed on the lamb in the OT. I have now answered your question as to how God saves miz3! Very simple. Very Biblical! Second, in regard to the concept above. God can do what He wants. In fact God does kill, there are many Biblical examples. This is why cardw on another thread does not like Christianity. Third, God does manipulate, read Nebuchadnezzar's testimony at the end of Daniel chapter 4. I will cite it here for you: " His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation. 35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: “What have you done?” Daniel 4:35-34. Fourth, God does indeed take fits. At least once God threw a fit and wanted to destroy the Children of Israel, you remember when Moses talked God out of doing His temper tantrum. Fifth, I will let you be the judge as to whether Jesus Christ was lying, being a false witness, misdirecting the truth, etc. in this incident: "After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, Jesus' brothers said to him, ‘You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.’ For even his own brothers did not believe in him. Therefore Jesus told them, ‘The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. You go to the Feast. I am not yet going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come.’ Having said this, he stayed in Galilee. However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret.” John 7:1-10. Does this mean you are going to stop giving the God of the Bible you "time of day"?
miz3 Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Well; you could look at this two ways. One. I am accusing you. Two. I am just sharing honestly how it is all starting to sound to me. I was not aware that the simple was too complex for you.
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Actually; I don't quite agree with either side right now. LOL; but thanks for the apology! I wasn't really too serious when I made that comment to you re "The School Of Pay Attention"...just having a little fun at your expense. I kinda figured you addressed me by accident! Sometimes it's just the way the forum's quoting mechanism works. I have plenty to say here on this subject but work will keep me too busy for a few days to say much. Let us resolve to take each post to Jesus before we submit it, from here on, and pray carefully about each word we post regarding our Savior! I know I have not done that a few times in this thread; I am thinking how Jesus is worthy of our efforts to glorify Him, in a way that tells the world we can be different; yet united in Him. Lets give it a try eh? "eh" is a Canadian thing that is said to mean "OK?" "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Overaged Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: overaged Well; you could look at this two ways. One. I am accusing you. Two. I am just sharing honestly how it is all starting to sound to me. I was not aware that the simple was too complex for you. When I was a kid; my Mother used to marvel how I sometimes would have trouble with "simple things" and yet at the same time; I could sit and read Grays Anatomy and understand it when I was just turned 13. LOL; God works in mysterious ways. "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Sonny Posted June 14, 2011 Posted June 14, 2011 Does this mean you are going to stop giving the God of the Bible you "time of day"? Your version? Absolutely!
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