Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Our sinful "nature" (our spiritual and moral nature) was crucified on the cross in Christ, not only our sinful "deeds". 1] Sinful deeds can't be crucified. Acts aren't tangible things. 2] Yes, we have sinful natures, but not spiritual/moral natures. So no moral nature was crucified. 3] Here's what Paul said: "We know that our old self [our humanity from Adam] was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed... Our humanity - all of it - had to die. The whole body has been corrupted by iniquity. It's in every fiber of our fallen humanity. Nothing was redeemable. Here's more proof: Romans 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and on account of sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, The flesh is our humanity. Where's sin? In the flesh...in our humanity. So the whole body had to go.... Humanity? Do you mean Adams fallen nature? As humanity existed before the fall...
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I was referring to a single verse, i.e., Roman 9:18. You have to look at the immediate context. Otherwise you come up with strange ideas, like you have, miz3. The "context" does indeed mean we are to take this particular text, Romans 9:18, at "face value"!
Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 With these discussions, how one uses a term can differ. So using Pauls terminology from Romans, I would say that "self" as used by 19th century Christians such as Ellen White, equates to the carnal mind that is fixed on the leading of the flesh. "Self" as a term is not used by Paul in the KJV to denote a part of mans nature. So for safeties sake, I use Pauls terminology when discussing what Paul was talking about. He does not use the idea of "self" the way people use it today in Christian circles. He uses "old man" etc. And He defines what that is. A mind focused on the "flesh", or the selfishnes inherent in the flesh of humanity, is carnal. That flesh contains "lusts and desires". Those "lust and desires" where crucified in Christ, as we accept that fact by faith. And victory lies in that realisation, that the old was crucified and the new has been supplied, for us to partake of.
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Thank you Twilight. You have made some excellent points.
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Sonny, 1. You just did what you accused me of doing. That is you took a single verse and then made conclusions based on that verse. 2. However, you did get what the verse is saying wrong. 3. I will quote the verse and more: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Romans 8:1-8. 4. The Law was powerless to change the "sinful nature", that is the law was powerless to change the human's INNER entity. That inner entity which drives everything a human is and does. Paul has taken great lengths to demonstrate that humans are slaves to this INNER ENTITY in previous chapters. 5. Paul is saying in verse three that God sent Jesus Christ with human's OUTER flesh after the fall. 6. Paul is also saying that Jesus Christ was the "sin offering". In the OT you killed a PERFECT LAMB WITHOUT DEFECT OF ANY KIND to be a sin offering. This OT sin offering is what Paul is saying Jesus Christ IS! 7. Paul says, therefore God has condemned the sin that resides in sinful humanity. Paul uses the word "in" to show that it is the inside of the human. ie: the sinful nature. 8. Verse four states that this met the requirements of the Law! Paul also adds that this Salvation is only for those who do NOT REJECT God's Gift! 9. Verses five and six reinforce the "context" that Paul is talking about the "inner humanity", "the sinful nature", etc. of the human entity. Paul's use of the word "mind" in verse six is a huge clincher! 10. Therefore not only verse three by itself but in addition the context of the passage also states that my "seven points" in a previous post are indeed correct!
Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Thank you Twilight. You have made some excellent points. Praise God alone, I am just sharing what God has been teaching me. And He hasn't finished yet...
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Do you mean Adams fallen nature? As humanity existed before the fall... Our humanity had to die, not the unfallen life of Adam, but the fallen. The law states that "the person who sins must die". Our life from Adam, after the fall, died in Christ. Not just human nature, but our life from Adam indwelt with sin. Ellen White: The infinite value of the sacrifice required for our redemption reveals the fact that sin is a tremendous evil. Through sin the whole human organism is deranged. The mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [The Ministry of Health and Healing, Page 262]
Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 On this point. Two verses in the bible that help to define Christ's moral and spiritual nature in contrast to our own. The first deals with our natural carnal state: 1. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Paul clearly states here that we have sin "IN" us. The second then deals with Christ: 2. 1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. And John says plainly that "IN" Him there is no sin. Both these texts are talking about sin in the individual. In both instances there is a difference. We are born with "sin in us". Christ had "no sin in Him". So we can conclude that Christ did not have the Rom 7:14-25 experience as 1 Jo 3:5 does not allow that. Therefore, Jesus had the Rom 8 experience, which from our perspective is the "born again" perspective, which we can also share.
Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Do you mean Adams fallen nature? As humanity existed before the fall... Our humanity had to die, not the unfallen life of Adam, but the fallen. The law states that "the person who sins must die". Our life from Adam, after the fall, died in Christ. Not just human nature, but our life from Adam indwelt with sin. Ellen White: The infinite value of the sacrifice required for our redemption reveals the fact that sin is a tremendous evil. Through sin the whole human organism is deranged. The mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [The Ministry of Health and Healing, Page 262] I personally would not use "humanity" in the way it has been used in your post, because it is not used by Paul, or indeed any of the bible writers in that manner. To use it in such a way, means we have stepped outside of biblical language and concepts and makes discussion difficult, because you may define that term one way and I another. :-)
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Praise God alone, I am just sharing what God has been teaching me. And He hasn't finished yet... Me too!
Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight Praise God alone, I am just sharing what God has been teaching me. And He hasn't finished yet... Me too! There are many things in the bible I do not understand yet, but the Lord promised to lead us into all truth. :-)
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Paul is saying in verse three that God sent Jesus Christ with human's OUTER flesh after the fall. No, Paul doesn't say that! I can't find "human's outer flesh". Paul says that Christ defeat sin, where? "in the flesh". Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared (was united) in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the devil. Okay, clearly Christ shared our humanity too. He took it upon His sinless Deity. Christ didn't stop being God. He remained God while uniting Himself to our humanity. Back to Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh.... Because of our humanity (flesh) we can't keep the law. The power of sin is stronger than the law. The law has no power. Since all of us have sinned and are (present tense) falling short of God's agape, "God sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and on account of sin, condemned sin in the flesh Where did Christ condemn sin? In the flesh. In order to defeat/condemn indwelling sin Christ had to assume our humanity indwelt with sin. That's what Paul is stating. He assumed us in order to defeat our bent-to-self and He had to do it "in the flesh"
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Quote: I personally would not use "humanity" in the way it has been used in your post, because it is not used by Paul, or indeed any of the bible writers in that manner. I understand. Ellen uses it - it makes sense, so the best I can offer is this: "Our old man was crucified with him [Christ], that the body of sin might be done away..." What is a "man"? Here's Wikipedia: "The term man (pl. men) is used for an adult human male ....However, man is sometimes used to refer to humanity as a whole." Now Paul precedes "old man" with the pronoun "our". Our is plural. There (in Romans 6:6) "old man" is not referring to one man, but many. That would be humanity. So "our old man" refers to our humanity. Remember Paul talks about being a "new creation" in Christ. Well, this is the old creation...the old humanity. So our old humanity from Adam, died when Christ was crucified. Sonny
Members phkrause Posted June 17, 2011 Members Posted June 17, 2011 The Bible intends for us to this text at "face value". I was referring to a single verse, i.e., Roman 9:18. You have to look at the immediate context. Otherwise you come up with strange ideas, like you have, miz3. I have to agree with Sonny on this Miz3. You definitely need to read the entire passage. That verse at even face value makes no sense, at least to me. phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 You definitely need to read the entire passage. That verse at even face value makes no sense, at least to me. Bingo.... My basic understanding of Romans 9 is the Jews demanded that God should give them heaven because of their law obedience. God says, "he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth." In other words God's way of saving mankind is through faith in the doing & dying of Christ. He has mercy to us through Christ. That's the only way to heaven. But the Jews insisted on salvation apart from faith. See verse 31 but Israel (the Jews), following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works.... God is the one that gave the Old Covenant. He did it to open their eyes that "there's none righteous" so they would accept the righteousness of Christ. (see Gal chapter 3) Since He gave the law in order to turn them from legalism to grace, He takes the blame for hardening their hearts. But in the judgment the blame will be placed on Satan because he is the author of sin. But for now God assumes the blame until the day of atonement.
Twilight II Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Quote: I personally would not use "humanity" in the way it has been used in your post, because it is not used by Paul, or indeed any of the bible writers in that manner. I understand. Ellen uses it - it makes sense, so the best I can offer is this: "Our old man was crucified with him [Christ], that the body of sin might be done away..." What is a "man"? Here's Wikipedia: "The term man (pl. men) is used for an adult human male ....However, man is sometimes used to refer to humanity as a whole." Now Paul precedes "old man" with the pronoun "our". Our is plural. There (in Romans 6:6) "old man" is not referring to one man, but many. That would be humanity. So "our old man" refers to our humanity. Remember Paul talks about being a "new creation" in Christ. Well, this is the old creation...the old humanity. So our old humanity from Adam, died when Christ was crucified. Sonny Paul states that we must "put off" the "old man" and put on the "new". Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. So I do not think we could use "man" in this sense and swap it with humanity. Because then we would have to say: "put of the old humanity" and "put on the new humanity". That is not a term Paul used. The "old man" is the mind linked to the flesh, therefore a "carnal man". The "new man" is the mind linked to the Spirit, therefore a "spiritul man". If we are to rigidly stick to Pauls terminology. Which I think would be useful...
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 So I do not think we could use "man" in this sense and swap it with humanity. That's nice, but I didn't use Ephesians to make they call. I used Romans 6:6. Can't you stay to context?
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 I have to agree with Sonny on this Miz3. You definitely need to read the entire passage. That verse at even face value makes no sense, at least to me. You are free to agree with Sonny if you want. However, I have already shown that whether we take that text in "context" or "by itself" it says the same thing. The "context" does not change one iota of the texts stand alone statement. You can refer to "context" and claim that the "context" will give you a different meaning but YOU WOULD BE WRONG! The context changes NOTHING! In fact as I have already shown the "context" actually reinforces my view of the text.
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Sonny, Your take on Romans chapter nine is filled with tortured logic and clear misstatements that have NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT THE PASSAGE IS SAYING! You also use the word "flesh" in the wrong context of the passage. Twilight and I have already pointed out to you in the clearest of language why you are contextually wrong in the use of the word "flesh" but you still persist to in stating it wrong. No matter how many times you do this or for whatever reason you do it, it will not change the fact that you are in error in regard to Jesus Christ and His "inner nature". The Bible is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature". The Bible does not support your contorted complex unScriptural explanations of Christ's "inner nature".
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Sonny, You quoted Romans 6:6. "If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. The "old self" that is your "inner parts" that make you Sonny, and me miz3, was crucified with Jesus Christ. In doing that Jesus Christ freed us from the slavery of that "old self" which made us to sin whether we wanted to or not! The text cannot be talking about the "outer flesh" or "outer old man" because we know that will be changed at the Second Coming. The text is also talking about "our old self" NOT ABOUT JESUS CHRIST having an "old self" or even that Jesus Christ took within Himself our "old self". It does say that "our old self" was placed on Him like the sins of Jew were placed on the lamb in the OT. Thus the pure and spotless lamb took the sins on itself of the Jew. It was only at the Cross where God placed "our old man" on Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did NOT TAKE OUR OLD MAN at any other time! Jesus Christ was NOT born with our "old man". Jesus Christ was NOT tempted with our "old man". ONLY ON THE CROSS! Use the text correctly, Sonny!
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 The context changes NOTHING! In fact as I have already shown the "context" actually reinforces my view of the text.
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 The Bible is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature". Absolutely, Christ took upon HIS sinless nature our sinful nature.
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 The "old self" that is your "inner parts" that make you Sonny, and me miz3, was crucified with Jesus Christ. Oh, my lungs, heart, kidneys, brain, liver etc was crucified with Christ, just not me?
Sonny Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 It does say that "our old self" was placed on Him like the sins of Jew were placed on the lamb in the OT. No, that last part was added by miz3. Do you have a chapter in the Bible? Here's Paul's version: "our old man was crucified with him [past tense], that the body of sin might be done away When Christ's assumed humanity died "all died". Our old life from Adam died "in Christ".
miz3 Posted June 17, 2011 Posted June 17, 2011 Sonny, You also quote Romans 8:3. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.Romans 8:1-4. Verse One: No person is condemned who is in Christ Jesus. Verse Two: Because of Christ Jesus a new law, the Law of the Spirit of Life (inner being) sets us free from the law of sin and death (inner being). We know Paul is talking about the inner being of things because the outer being will not take on immortality until the Second Coming! Thus, it must be the inner self, or inner being, or inner nature, etc. Verse Three: The Law is and was powerless against our "sinful nature" or "inner being". Thus no matter what the Law said the "sinful nature" ruled us because we were slaves to the "sinful nature". We were not slaves to the Law. Since the Law was powerless God sent Jesus Christ to be "a sin offering"! Oh, my Paul is referring to what I mentioned before about the OT and the spotless innocent lamb. The sins of the Jew were placed on the lamb and the lamb payed the penalty of death that the Jew should have payed for his sin. The Jew then walked away scot free. The lamb never took on the sinful nature of the Jew until the lamb was made sin for the Jew at the alter! It also states that Jesus Christ was sent in the "likeness of sinful man". Notice Paul does not use the term "sinful nature" as he did at the beginning of verse three. He uses a completely different term "likeness of sinful man" because now Paul is referring to the outer part of humanity. Paul is making a clear unambiguous differentiation. If Paul wanted it to be the same Paul would have used "sinful nature" again as Paul does in future verses of Romans chapter eight. Again it is thus clear Paul intends the two terms to mean two different things. Thus God condemned the sin "inside" sinful man! Verse Four: In sending Jesus Christ God upholds the Law and met the requirements of the Law. Thus we are now no longer slaves to the "sinful nature" but rather we are slaves to the "Spiritual Nature". There it is Sonny, this text also supports my view of things and does not support your view.
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