Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 It was the humanity of Jesus that was put to the test, not His divinity. God cannot be tempted. Jesus as a man depended wholly upon the Father to fill Him with the Holy Spirit so that as a man living in sinful flesh he might live in harmony with the precepts of the law of God. So can we. This isn't the primary reason that Christ took our fallen, sinful nature upon Himself. When taught in this manner this leads to legalism. This was the main issue fought over the doctrine of justification by faith, in the Counter Reformation. Roman Catholic scholars, like Osiender and Newman, accused the Reformers of legal fiction. If God can justify sinners without first making them righteous, they argued, than He Himself is guilty of breaking His own law. One of the great challenges that faces the Christian Church today is how can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one many sincere people, especially Islamic scholars, accuse Christianity of being an unethical religion. Their main argument is that the doctrine of substitution, as taught by Christianity, is based on a faulty Roman law which allowed an innocent man, Christ, to die in place of the guilty human race. Hence they accuse the Christians religion of “legal fiction.”
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny 4] Now, since you still retain your fallen nature and since you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, that would make the Holy Spirit a sinner, right? Oh my! Again, this is more Jehovah's Witness AKA classic Adventist reasoning.......Allow me to break this down for you. Well, you didn't answer my question. You asked more questions, but failed to answer question # 4. Try again and this time direct answers with no smokescreens.
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 It was the humanity of Jesus that was put to the test, not His divinity. God cannot be tempted. Jesus as a man depended wholly upon the Father to fill Him with the Holy Spirit so that as a man living in sinful flesh he might live in harmony with the precepts of the law of God. Jesus Christ is One----Divine and human. As One you cannot separate the human from the Divine. Jesus Christ did not have two minds----one Divine and one human. Jesus Christ had one brain. Jesus Christ was not some schizophrenic freak. Jesus Christ was One so when He was tempted He was not just tempted in the human personality while the Divine personality stood by and was not tempted. You are making Jesus Christ out to be some schizophrenic freak. Either Jesus Christ was tempted and could have fallen or Jesus Christ was tempted and it was impossible for Him to fall. Jesus is not a split personality. You are making Him a split personality!
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Skyblue888, Jesus Christ was and is God that has never changed. Thus, as God Jesus Christ cannot sin. Taking on humanity did not change Jesus Christ from being God anywhere in or on His Person. The only way to get where you are going is to make Him a split personality which is definitely NOT BIBLICAL!
Gustave Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Well, you didn't answer my question. You asked more questions, but failed to answer question # 4. Try again and this time direct answers with no smokescreens. I didn't think I need to answer that.... ...My answer is a NO! My sinning does not make "God" a sinner! ...WOW! Since Lucifer was made by "God" did Lucifer's sin by default make "God" a sinner?
Dr. Waite Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Overaged Then Jesus did not die; and that is not Biblical! Ellen White has it correct: "Humanity died, Deity did not sink and die. That would be impossible." "Jesus said to Mary, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." When he closed his eyes in death upon the cross, the soul of Christ did not go at once to Heaven, as many believe, or how could his words be true--"I am not yet ascended to my Father"? The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, there to maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciples embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained with his body in the sepulcher; and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from Heaven. He had power to lay down his life and to take it up again." {3SP 203.2} IF JESUS' "DEITY" HAD LIFE AND INTELLIGENCE, THEN IT REMAINED WITH THE BODY IN THE SEPULCHER. grw
ClubV12 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sky quotes EGW: "They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God." 3 S.M.411 Thats really the crux of the matter. You will find, in the bible or the Spirit of Prophecy plenty of hooks upon which to hang your doubts. If you come to the bible with preconceived ideas and looking for "proof" to back them up, you will find them. In the same way, you will find them in Ellen Whites writings as well. I view the bible as inspired and accurate, understanding that man in his limited ability to express the mind of God has to use words and thoughts we can understand. That some things get lost in translation. Ellen White is much the same way, it's not so much an issue of "taking stuff out of context" as it is coming to her writings with a sincere and open heart and believing her words are inspired. Like a bible verse, I'll work out the details later of any given verse. But FIRST, I will believe and accept.
skyblue888 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 "They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God." CluvV12 __________________________ Club, can you explain to me why every time you quote something from my posts, it comes out as coming from someone else's posts when it doesnt?!!! sky I am not pointing the finger at anyone in particular but it needs to be said so that we are all aware. "In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God." 3 S.M.411 Especially the statements of Ellen White. It says you are quoting from John317 and he is not even here!! sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
ClubV12 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Because Ellen White didn't always referrence her source material... ? Duly noted, I must give credit where credit is due (in this modern age). OH, I see what you mean, yeah, I see John317 in a LOT of posts, I have no idea what that means.
skyblue888 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Its not about giving credit but avoiding confusion. Its not the first time I noticed this. sky :) "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Overaged Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 This is a classic paradox Sonny because Ellen said it was possible for Diety.... ...To A) sin, Loose Salvation C) Die & D) cease to exist PERMANENTLY. ...Unless this is some "other type of Christ" I'm not aware of yet within SDA theology. Ellen White Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.” , The Desire of Ages. Page 49 ‘Unto you a Saviour "People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)"I cannot know why suddenly the stormshould rage so fiercely round me in it's wrathBut this I know: God watches all my pathAnd I can trust""God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - OveragedFaith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 My answer is a NO! My sinning does not make "God" a sinner! There you go again, you aren't answering the question. Question # 4 isn't asking that if you sin does that make the Holy Spirit a sinner? The question is, "since you [Gustave] still retain your fallen nature and since you [Gustave] have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, does that make the Holy Spirit (who is in you) a sinner?
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave My answer is a NO! My sinning does not make "God" a sinner! There you go again, you aren't answering the question. Question # 4 isn't asking that if you sin does that make the Holy Spirit a sinner? The question is, "since you [Gustave] still retain your fallen nature and since you [Gustave] have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, does that make the Holy Spirit (who is in you) a sinner? You are dragging your feet on this one. Well, let me help you with this: No, the Holy Spirit, who is in you does not become contaminated because He dwells in your fallen humanity. Why? He remains Himself - God - while you remain yourself - a sinner indwelt with a sinful nature. So since the Holy Spirit can dwell in you without becoming a sinner then Christ as the Son of God can dwell in our fallen humanity (indwelt with a sinful nature) without becoming a sinner Himself. "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature" Notice that Christ remained Himself - i.e., God. Yet at the incarnation Christ took upon His sinless Divinity OUR sinful nature. Did that make Him a sinner? No!
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Sonny, There are two things wrong with your logic. 1. Gustave has shown myriads Ellen White quotes where Jesus Christ as a Divine Entity would have been lost totally had He sinned. Thus, if Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I He would have been lost from the get go. Not to mention that He would have needed a Savior Himself. The "internal nature" of a being is the Driver or Master of that being. Thus Christ would have been a slave to His "sinful nature" like you and I are slaves to it. Right from birth we are slaves to our "sinful nature". You should know this from your reading of Paul in Romans and in Paul's other Epistles as well. So on this count alone Jesus Christ could not have had a "sinful nature" like you and I. 2. Jesus Christ is One----Divine and human. As One you cannot separate the human from the Divine. Jesus Christ did not have two minds----one Divine and one human. Jesus Christ had one brain. Jesus Christ was not some schizophrenic freak. Jesus Christ was One so when He was tempted He was not just tempted in the human personality while the Divine personality stood by and was not tempted. You are making Jesus Christ out to be some schizophrenic freak. Either Jesus Christ was tempted and could have fallen or Jesus Christ was tempted and it was impossible for Him to fall. Jesus is not a split personality. You are making Him a split personality! Jesus Christ was and is God that has never changed. Thus, as God Jesus Christ cannot sin. Taking on humanity did not change Jesus Christ from being God anywhere in or on His Person. The only way to get where you are going is to make Him a split personality which is definitely NOT BIBLICAL!
miz3 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 To Sonny and all others, This text clinches the fact that Jesus Christ DID NOT have a "sinful nature" like you and I. "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." 1John 1:5. If Christ had a "sinful nature" even the smallest amount then Christ would have had in Himself "darkness". However the text clearly states that there was in Him NO DARKNESS AT ALL!
skyblue888 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3. What kind of flesh did David have? Sinless? sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 If Christ had a "sinful nature" even the smallest amount then Christ would have had in Himself "darkness". I don't think any of you are reading what I post. I have persistently stated that Christ didn't HAVE a sinful nature. It wasn't His - it was ours. He assumed us in order to redeem us. Since Christ didn't come to save the unfallen race then He came to save the fallen race. Hence Christ as God assumed us in our fallen state. Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law.... God the Father sent His Son - i.e., the Son of God - and in the womb of Mary (a sinner) He (God the Father) united Christ's Deity with our fallen humanity. God did this so that Christ might live a perfect life of obedience & then so that He might condemn sin in the flesh. So in Christ our humanity was made obedient and in Christ we "died to the law through the body of Christ". This was the only way to answer the demands of God's law. Any other gospel fails to do this.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Jesus Christ did not have two minds----one Divine and one human. Jesus Christ had one brain. Jesus Christ was not some schizophrenic freak. You, a believer, have one mind, right? The Holy Spirit, who dwells in you has His own mind, right? Now reverse this. Christ before the incarnation was God...He was Spirit. At the incarnation God the Father placed the Divinity of Christ within the humanity that lay in Mary's womb. So Divinity and humanity where united.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all." Let's look at the context: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Clearly the context is speaking of God the Father, not Christ....Event then, from the beginning Christ was God. It was at the incarnation that Christ's Deity was united to our fallen humanity.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Rom 6:6 "our old life was crucified with Him, [why?] in order that our body of sin might be done away with...." What does God's law say? The person who sins, this person must die. He/she must die the 2nd death. So then, "in Christ" your humanity came to and end. Rom 7:4 "You also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ" Notice that "in Christ" our humanity died because the law demands the death of the sinner. Hence when Christ's assumed humanity died, all men died. 2 Cor 5:14 "One died for all, then all died" Clearly we can see that it was our humanity that died "in Christ".
skyblue888 Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 "Concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, who was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." Rom.1:3. David had sinful flesh. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Gustave Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 You are dragging your feet on this one. Well, let me help you with this: No, the Holy Spirit, who is in you does not become contaminated because He dwells in your fallen humanity. Why? He remains Himself - God - while you remain yourself - a sinner indwelt with a sinful nature. So since the Holy Spirit can dwell in you without becoming a sinner then Christ as the Son of God can dwell in our fallen humanity (indwelt with a sinful nature) without becoming a sinner Himself. "He took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature" Notice that Christ remained Himself - i.e., God. Yet at the incarnation Christ took upon His sinless Divinity OUR sinful nature. You are comparing "the Incarnation God" to God dwelling ( the concept is actually 'by ones side' ).... ...THIS, SONNY is yet another Heresy - you've taken Christ aware as a saviour and turned Him into a simple example. It's you that is ignoring the points I made and questions..... ...When Ellen says "HIS" ( as in Christ ) prior to coming to earth could loose HIS ( Christ prior to coming to earth ) eternal existence and THIS is what Christ Risked ( along with heaven itself ) that is saying it's fully possible for DIETY to die. Unless you planning on telling me that God was going to pull the "life eternal" out of Christ that your own publications say God INVESTED Christ with before God would annihilate Christ. I'm going to have to go back to the archives and dig this up - And I assure you I will find it.
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 (the concept is actually 'by ones side' ).... I'm sorry, but it seems that you are adding (according to your Catholic traditions) to the Holy Scriptures. The Bible doesn't say "by one's side" - it plainly states the following: "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? [1Cor 3:16 NKJV]
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 ...THIS, SONNY is yet another Heresy No Sir! Not at all...it is you who are presenting heresy! Anyone who teaches (and the Catholic church teaches this heresy) that Jesus did not come in the flesh (Greek: Sarx - sinful, human nature) is anti-Christ. Here's the Scripture: 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit [i.e., living person], but test the spirits (people), whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit [person] that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God , 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. Paul saw the rise of the anti-Christ system even in his days. 2 Thess 2:3 speaks of this: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (the 2nd coming) will not come unless the falling away comes first.... The falling away here refers to the falling away from the gospel - that Christ as God took upon His sinless nature OUR fallen nature. He did this in order to legally redeem us. If you are going to reject this then you must work yourself into heaven, which of course is impossible. Hence my rejection of the Papacy which ultimately preaches salvation by works. This is heresy....
Sonny Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gustave (the concept is actually 'by ones side' ).... I'm sorry, but it seems that you are adding (according to your Catholic traditions) to the Holy Scriptures. The Bible doesn't say "by one's side" - it plainly states the following: "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? [1Cor 3:16 NKJV] Here's more Paul (and he is authorized of God): "the Spirit of God dwells in you" [Rom 8:9] "your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you" [1 Cor 6:19] I'll even add John for you: "He (the Spirit) dwells with you and will be in you" John 14:17
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