Agape

[Sonny]

God's love (click here)

After reading the above link, let's have a civil discussion on God's agape love.

[Gerr]

Perhaps instead of discussing love, let's ask ourselves - do I have it? If not, how can I have it?

[Woody]

Perhaps instead of discussing love, let's ask ourselves - do I have it? If not, how can I have it?

By discussing it we will get it.

By asking if we have it ... we will get nothing.

Only by the study of it and the One who gave it ... will we obtain it.

[Sonny]

Perhaps instead of discussing love, let's ask ourselves - do I have it? If not, how can I have it?

I would say we can experience it, but at the same time we aren't living Christ's life.

[Sonny]

It's sad to see that "agape" gets so little attention. I wonder why?

[Sonny]

God's love (click here)

After reading the above link, let's have a civil discussion on God's agape love.

Here's something interesting from the website above:

Christendom accepted Augustine’s formulation, and caritas became the key definition of divine and Christian love in Roman Catholic theology. Since Augustine’s idea was a mixture of agape and eros, the gospel became perverted from “Not I, but Christ” [see Galatians 2:20] to “I plus Christ.” This concept of the gospel is still prevalent today. The moment the pure meaning of agape was corrupted, the gospel became perverted with self-love, and the Christian church lost its power and plunged into darkness. Not until the Reformation of the sixteenth century, when Martin Luther realized the problem and tried to undo Augustine’s synthesis, did the church begin to emerge into the light of the pure gospel once again. Unfortunately, the Christian church today is still, to a large degree, groping in the darkness, trying to understand the true meaning of agape and, thus, of the gospel.

In other words until the church restores the truth of agape to its rightful place we will continue to pervert the gospel.

[Woody]

It's sad to see that "agape" gets so little attention. I wonder why?

Sonny. From the very beginning of time ... man has prefered to do it on his own rather than accept a gift. I think it is all about ego and pride.

[Sonny]

I think it is all about ego and pride.

Sure...sinful man wants credit. As you say that's pride & ego. The fact that some of us are resting in Christ and place no confidence in our performance is proof that God is suppressing our human natures.

Here's Paul:

Phil 3;1 Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs [wolves in sheep's clothing], those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--

4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. 7

But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

[Woody]

Quote:

Sure...sinful man wants credit. As you say that's pride & ego. The fact that some of us are resting in Christ and place no confidence in our performance is proof that God is suppressing our human natures

You know - I had never thought of it in those terms.

But HOW true

[Gerr]

It's sad to see that "agape" gets so little attention. I wonder why?

My personal take: because, frankly, your version of agape is screwed up - sell all your goodies and give it to your neighbor!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

It's sad to see that "agape" gets so little attention. I wonder why?

My personal take: because, frankly, your version of agape is screwed up - sell all your goodies and give it to your neighbor!

Better than your view which is take your neighbors goodies and give them to yourself. lol What kind of agape is that? That is simply socialism.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

It's sad to see that "agape" gets so little attention. I wonder why?

My personal take: because, frankly, your version of agape is screwed up - sell all your goodies and give it to your neighbor!

Look at Christ's life. He's agape. How did He live? Did He have a home of His own? Did He have a bank account, 401K of His day? No. What did He do? He lived for others. There was no self-seeking in His life. That's agape.

The reason Christ was poor is because He refused to live by the principle of this world. The principle of this world is based on Lucifer's principle of self-seeking. It's in sports, politics, education....Everything in this world is based on moving up the ladder - gaining the advantage.

In heaven none of this will exist. That's why God didn't allow Lucifer to develop his brand of love, which is the love of self, in heaven.

In heaven, says EGW, "none will think of self". Instead they will live for their neighbors. There's no self-love in God's love.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think people are making agape more complicated than it is.

It seems to me that agape is simply altruism with a religious twist of the tongue.. there's a lot of altruistic people in this world. They may not demonstrate it all the time, nonetheless, they do have altruistic natures. IMHO

[Sonny]

It seems to me that agape is simply altruism with a religious twist of the tongue..

Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures, and a core aspect of various religious traditions, though the concept of 'others' toward whom concern should be directed can vary among religions. Altruism is the opposite of selfishness....Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits that recognition of the giving may bring.

Here's the problem with "altruism": One, it's not agape. Two, humans can't generate something they don't have internally.

Humans are born completely void of agape. They may have a desire to do right, but they never do. All humans do, without a mature walk with Christ, is for self-centered reasons.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

You just contradicted yourself on the point I was making. I've done many things that help people out of no concern whatsoever for myself. And many of those things were done when I was a witch.

However, if you want to think that agape does not equate with altruism, because, of course, we **simply** can **not** have it unless you have a "mature walk with Christ," by all means, carry on.

But think on this: there will be many in heaven who never heard of Christ. And many who think they will be there, will hear "I never knew you"....

[Sonny]

You just contradicted yourself on the point I was making. I've done many things that help people out of no concern whatsoever for myself. And many of those things were done when I was a witch.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

You just contradicted yourself on the point I was making. I've done many things that help people out of no concern whatsoever for myself. And many of those things were done when I was a witch.

Did you renounce all selfishness and live solely for the benefit of others, or did you still live for yourself in someway? Christ never lived for Himself. As EGW states, "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

That in no way addresses what I wrote.

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

But think on this: there will be many in heaven who never heard of Christ. And many who think they will be there, will hear "I never knew you"....

Originally Posted By: sonny

Yes, they did know Him by name, but through nature they accepted "the unknown God". God wrote in their hearts agape love. Like I said, no one can do agape without God in their lives, period!

ok, would you like fries with that? Or maybe I should salute, click my heels, and say, "Yes, sir!"

[Sonny]

Yes, they didn't know Him by name, but through nature they accepted "the unknown God".

My mistake.....

[Sonny]

That in no way addresses what I wrote.

What I've done is offended your view of agape....And so you get mad at me because you aren't living Christ's life? His life is agape.

[Gerr]

Gerry:

My personal take: because, frankly, your version of agape is screwed up - sell all your goodies and give it to your neighbor!

Woody:

Better than your view which is take your neighbors goodies and give them to yourself. lol What kind of agape is that? That is simply socialism.

Gerry:

I don't ever recall taking anything from anyone of my neighbors. The opposite is true - I've been sharing from the abundance of my garden. And exchanging goods or services is NOT taking from your neighbor!

[Sonny]

exchanging goods or services is NOT taking from your neighbor!

Lot's of folks do this....Does this mean they are going to heaven?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

That in no way addresses what I wrote.

What I've done is offended your view of agape....And so you get mad at me because you aren't living Christ's life? His life is agape.

I'm not offended, Grasshopper. I feel sorry for you. But feeling sorry for you doesn't mean I have to accept your view of anything. You don't have to accept mine either....that doesn't bother me.

But this is how you're coming across:

[ClubV12]

"Lot's of folks do this...."

Does it mean they aren't going to heaven?

Sometimes I just can't follow the various lines of reasoning around here.

Faith, works, the delicate balance between the two, it's an 1888 dejavu all over again.

There IS a balance. It's rather obvious those who try to "work" there way into heaven will come up short. The balance is less obvious for those who claim "faith" is all you need and disregard the law, or "works" as one might call it.

Either side of the road puts you in the ditch.

[Sonny]

You don't have to accept mine either....that doesn't bother me.

Your view is unbiblical. Mankind is void of agape by birth. Therefore everything he/she does before conversion is polluted with selfishness. If not, disprove me.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

exchanging goods or services is NOT taking from your neighbor!

Lot's of folks do this....Does this mean they are going to heaven?

Did I even intimate that?