Agape

[Sonny]

Did I even intimate that?

No, but is what you are presenting agape?

[Sonny]

Most don't want to talk about agape because they realize how far short they come of living a righteous life. Since many SDA assurance is based on their law performance their security comes into question. They don't want to admit that they are falling short of God's love because to them that means they are lost.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

You don't have to accept mine either....that doesn't bother me.

Your view is unbiblical. Mankind is void of agape by birth. Therefore everything he/she does before conversion is polluted with selfishness. If not, disprove me.

Oh...I didn't know that you were an expert. Well, call me stupid, spank me, and take away my coffee for a week...

[John317]

Most don't want to talk about agape because they realize how far short they come of living a righteous life. Since many SDA assurance is based on their law performance their security comes into question. They don't want to admit that they are falling short of God's love because to them that means they are lost.

This is false. SDAs don't believe that. Everyone constantly falls short of God's glory, including Enoch, Moses and Elijah, who are now in heaven with Christ. No one will be lost simply because they fell short of God's glory.

God is not demanding that people live Christ's life on this earth. Not a single person who's ever lived has done that, and our salvation is not dependent on our living Christ's life.

Quote:

The gifts of His grace through Christ are free to all. There is no election but one's own by which any may perish. . . . Every soul is elected who will work out his own salvation with fear and trembling. He is elected who will put on the armor and fight the good fight of faith. He is elected who will watch unto prayer, who will search the Scriptures, and flee from temptation. He is elected who will have faith continually, and who will be obedient to every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. The provisions of redemption are free to all; the results of redemption will be enjoyed by those who have complied with the conditions. {CC 71.4}

Quote:

The Lord said unto Samuel, "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and in sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." No outward service, even in that which is required by God can be a substitute for an obedient life. The Creator desires heart service of his creatures. {ST, March 21, 1878 par. 10}

God has said through Hosea, "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. But they like men have transgressed the covenant; there have they dealt treacherously against me." The many sacrifices of the Jews and the flowing of blood to atone for sins for which they felt no true repentance was ever repugnant to God. He spoke through Micah saying, "Wherewith shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doeth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?" {ST, March 21, 1878 par. 11}

[Sonny]

This is false. SDAs don't believe that.

Not all, but many do.

[Woody]

Most don't want to talk about agape because they realize how far short they come of living a righteous life. Since many SDA assurance is based on their law performance their security comes into question. They don't want to admit that they are falling short of God's love because to them that means they are lost.

Good insight here. I think for some this is their experience in the SDA church. In fact ... I hear the hatred of this kind of person for posts and sermons on the topic of agape. They just hate it being presented in the place of talk about works.

[Gerr]

Good insight here. I think for some this is their experience in the SDA church. In fact ... I hear the hatred of this kind of person for posts and sermons on the topic of agape. They just hate it being presented in the place of talk about works.

There may be a sliver of truth to what you say, but there's nothing that nauseates me more than a repetition ad nauseam of a screwed up view of love.

[Woody]

I will take love over works ANYday.

[Gerr]

I will take love over works ANYday.

And I'll take love that works over love that is only talked about ANY day!

[Woody]

Gerry. You are impossible.

[Woody]

I am trying to convert you but you are not cooperating.

[phkrause]

And I'll take love that works over love that is only talked about ANY day!

This is a great point Gerry. We can talk about love till we are blue in the face, but if we don't show that love, and that for those that don't understand this is called "works" we are not understanding God's meaning of love.

[Woody]

Pk. My issue with Gerry is that he turns every topic in to 'works'. He has never seen a works that he didn't like. lol

[phkrause]

Pk. My issue with Gerry is that he turns every topic in to 'works'. He has never seen a works that he didn't like. lol

From what I get out of Gerry's posts is a love based works, not a works based on, "let me see how I can get saved with what I do." There is a difference!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Pk. My issue with Gerry is that he turns every topic in to 'works'. He has never seen a works that he didn't like. lol

From what I get out of Gerry's posts is a love based works, not a works based on, "let me see how I can get saved with what I do." There is a difference!

Interesting perspective. Not one I share. But still interesting.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Pk. My issue with Gerry is that he turns every topic in to 'works'. He has never seen a works that he didn't like. lol

I haven't ever seen that as Gerry's theme on the forum. But I *do* see a lot of others with their war bonnets and tomahawks take anyone to task for anyone who does anything nice for someone - as if *that* automatically places someone in the "you only did that because you believe works will get you into heaven" baloney.

If you only had faith and did no good works, you're as good as dead. And a good work can be nothing more than a smile at someone, or saying "Happy Sabbath"...

I get tired of reading Sequeira-esque ideas and notions coming down the pike on a regular basis here..

Furthermore, I get tired of seeing the Adventist church and members being used as punching bags by people here on the forum.. If you don't like the SDA church, and don't believe in the fundamental beliefs, and have a problem with EGW that you can't deal with, then leave the church...find something else that fits and doesn't make you constipated..

okay...I'm done.

[Woody]

Not sure I agree with all you say Pam.

But I do agree that we need to Wag more and Bark less

[Woody]

A friend of mine - puts it this way:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

[phkrause]

A friend of mine - puts it this way:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

And that wealth would be? Everlasting life I suspect! Now how does that person get that? Bible studies? helping your neighbor out in a pinch, etc. How is this accomplished? By us doing for others. No? If that's the case Woody, than what is the definition of doing something? Is it not works, or should I ask it this way, What is the definition of works? Is it not doing for others? Its a loved based works not a what can I get out of this works? There is definitely a fine line there as to which works it is, but that's God's domain as to judging what that person is doing it for. Obviously we are not saved by our works that I agree with for sure, but sitting around and talking about how much we love our neighbors doesn't cut it either. I will take Gerry's version of works any day, its called works of Love.

[Woody]

That's fine pk. U can have it. To each - his or her own I say.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Woody

A friend of mine - puts it this way:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

And that wealth would be? Everlasting life I suspect!

Come on, Pkrause, it reads nothing like that. Agape doesn't seek it's own wealth, but seeks for the wealth of others. Agape lives to serve.....That's why Christ said He was "the servant of all". He lives to serve. He loves sinners more than Himself for there is no love of self in God's love.

[Woody]

Glad my friend stopped by.

Yes Sonny. I agree with you. Great post:

Quote:

Come on, Pkrause, it reads nothing like that. Agape doesn't seek it's own wealth, but seeks for the wealth of others. Agape lives to serve.....That's why Christ said He was "the servant of all". He lives to serve. He loves sinners more than Himself for there is no love of self in God's love.

PK - This is the kind of "works" that I agree with. :)

[Sonny]

God is not demanding that people live Christ's life on this earth.

Then a little sin is okay? Which is it, John? You preach that we must keep the law, yet you say that we need not live Christ's life of obedience. Christ fulfilled the law. He said "I have kept my Father's commandments".

Paul tells us that "agape is the fulfillment of the law". And we are also told that "God is agape". Take those two statements and put them together and you have "God is the fulfillment of the law". Christ, who is God, lived a perfect life in our humanity.

If Christ lived a perfect, unselfish life, why can't you through the Spirit? What's wrong? Christ "thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Why can't you live His life? So you are confusing when you say we should keep the law, but that we don't need to live Christ's life. Keeping the law is living Christ's life!

As to Christ's life - we are told: “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. “If any man will come after me,” he declares, “let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.” “So shall ye be my disciples.” [RH 7-4-1912]

Here's a fact: We are Laodicea. We are not the remnant. Yes, we have been commanded to preach the gospel, but we aren't perfectly reflecting Christ's life. If we were the church would come under tremendous persecution.

Evidence that we are Laodicea? Let me give you a quote:

Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people. [RH 12-15-04]

The problem with Laodicea is she's self-deceived by her own righteousness, like Job of old. The remnant will (future tense) consist of those believers who are depending on the righteousness of Christ for their ticket to heaven. These, just prior to the time of trouble, will experience God's agape to the fullest. Hence "here are those who keep the commandments of God".

“Their earthliness [which EGW defines as "Self-love & self-interest"] must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

So let's talk agape. Let's admit we aren't keeping the law. Yes, we aren't open sinners living for the flesh, but then again we aren't saints either. We are only saints because of who we are in Christ.

[Woody]

Good Question Sonny. How much sin are we excusing on this earth?

If we are to be saved - the Law requires PERFECT obedience. Not half hearted or incomplete obedience. The Law requires one to be perfect Saints. Nothing less and nothing more.

[phkrause]

Glad my friend stopped by.

Yes Sonny. I agree with you. Great post:

Quote:

Come on, Pkrause, it reads nothing like that. Agape doesn't seek it's own wealth, but seeks for the wealth of others. Agape lives to serve.....That's why Christ said He was "the servant of all". He lives to serve. He loves sinners more than Himself for there is no love of self in God's love.

PK - This is the kind of "works" that I agree with.

Exactly, its saying the same thing. Who's saying its looking for its own wealth? Is not helping others serving??????? If not than tell me or all of us what is??????? Or are we gonna play semantics here!!!!!!