WAS SUCCESS A SURE THING FOR CHRIST?

[miz3]

WAS SUCCESS A SURE THING FOR CHRIST?

Many believe that it was not impossible for Jesus Christ to sin or in some manner fail in His mission. Many believe that during the temptation in the desert, the garden prayer session just prior to His crucifixion, and while on the Cross, that Jesus teetered on the edge and that it was nip and tuck as to whether He would succeed or fail. These persons believe that by the thinnest of threads victory was snatched from defeat.

[Gerr]

Are you saying that He risked nothing?

[miz3]

There are no Biblical sources for such views. These kinds of thoughts are ones that are conjured up in the minds of humans. God in His Word has not given even the faintest hint, that failure by any means, including, that Christ could have sinned, was possible. In fact God’s Word makes clear that God and Jesus Christ and Their plans will have only one conclusion, and that is, complete and total success just as They have planned it.

How foolish, to think that the Infinite God would set to do anything but dominate the situation. Those who think otherwise try and make at least five points. One, that God has tied His own hands so that evil has an equal chance at success, as does God. There is no where in Holy Scripture that such a concept exists. If you find it let me know. Second, that God in order to prove that He is fair was forced into being vulnerable to defeat and failure. Who is defining the word fair in this view? It is clear that humans are defining fair and Holy Scripture no where supports such a view. Again, if you have Scripture that supports such a view, let me know. Third, that God is taking a big risk because He loves humans. Yes, God loves humans but again Holy Scripture does not support the “risk” theory. Fourth, that God is about proving that He and His Kingdom (government) are the only way to have peace and life. This assertion literally puts God and His Government on trial. The judges will be the Universe especially humans. This theory elevates humanity over God. How can the created ever judge the Creater? This is absurd, the fact is Holy Scripture states that it is not God who will be on trial but rather it will be those who have rebelled against God. If you have doubts about this, please read the Book of Revelation. Read also Matthew chapter 7 and Matthew 25 for starters. In each case it is humans on trial. How about these texts just for starters?

[Gerr]

ESV | Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

1. If Jesus was beyond the possibility of sinning, then His temptation was only a charade, and that He was in no way tempted like me, who ALWAYS carry the possibility of sinning.

2. If humans do not have freedom of choice as you claim, how can He judge them for rebellion? Only beings who are responsible for their actions can be subject to judgment. And one cannot be responsible for his actions unless he has freedom of choice.

3. There IS a SENSE in which God is being judged by His creatures. When you say "God is just," you have made a judgment about Him.

ESV | Ro 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

Just as God in Christ stooped down to take the form of a servant, stooped down to wash the dirty feet of His disciples, so God condescends to be judged by His creatures. No, we don't try Him in a court of law. We are the ones on trial because we are the ones who have rebelled. But God is in a SENSE on trial - on trial in the court of public/universal opinion - whether He is just in His handling of the sin problem.

[miz3]

“I lift my hand to heaven and declare: As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me. I will make my arrows drunk with blood, while my sword devours flesh: the blood of the slain and the captives, the heads of the enemy leaders.”

Deuteronomy 32:40-42.

Does not sound like God is on trial, no, rather, it is God that is doing the judging!

“Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.”

Psalm 1:5.

“God will bring to judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time for every deed.”

Ecclesiastes 3:18.

“But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Matthew 12:36-37.

“Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?”

Romans 2:2-3.

“Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 9:27-28.

You should look up the word judgment in the Bible. Nowhere will you find that it says we, humans, will judge God or anything that even infers that God and His government will be on trial. In fact, the Bible tells us not to judge because that is God’s job. Five, that the unfallen angels had doubts and thus to erase those doubts God set out to prove beyond any shadow of doubt that He is what He says He is. How foolish, since God made everything, He is all-powerful. He created power and everything He created receives its power from Him. How can we be sure that such a God would be giving us all the evidence or that He has not tampered in some way with the evidence? You realize that those who hold to this position state that the evidence we will be using to make our judgment is the evidence God has made. Also, the idea that an infinite God would be judged by finite humans is so absurd that it is hardly worth our noticing such a thing. Besides Holy Scripture does not ever say or intimate such a thing. The Bible says nothing about the Holy angels having doubts about God. If they did why would they do His bidding until the mess was cleared up. I am going to stop because trying to analyze stupid is a fruitless exercise. This list of five theories may not be exhaustive but we will move on.

[miz3]

When was God’s plan made? If God has always existed so have His plans. Everything about God is eternal. This means that God has always existed and will always exist. God has no beginning. God created the beginning. Beginning did not exist until God created it. Thus God’s plans have always existed.

“All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”

Revelation 13:8. [bold type supplied].

God had a plan even before the earth was created. It also says that God saw the plan as being complete from the moment of its inception. It does say in Revelation 13:8 that the Lamb was slain. Why would God state that Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, was slain even before the earth was made? Could it be that God was declaring victory even though the event in human history had not yet occurred? Could it be that there is never any doubt about success once God says that it will happen?

“So the LORD God said to the serpent, ‘Because you have done this, Cursed are you above all the livestock and all the wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.’.”

Genesis 3:14-15.

Do you notice the emphatic and certain language God uses. There is no ambiguity or maybe anywhere. God doesn’t say, “Maybe I will crush your head”. He states that indeed I will crush your head and totally destroy you. God promises that He will be victorious and save Humanity. That why Genesis 3:15 is called a Promise. With humans there is a difference between a promise and the fact that it will be successful, but not with God. If God cannot keep His promises what assurance can His creation ever have? God makes His promises so that Humanity can be at peace that it will happen. I ask you if God’s promises about His First Coming are ify, ify, then what makes you certain that His promises to come a second time (Second Coming) a sure thing. It seems the same people that say that the First Coming had a maybe in it declare that the Second Coming is a dead lock certainty. Again, I ask, if the First Coming was not a certain success, then what makes us so certain that the Second Coming will be a success and that things will go just as God has planned it?

[miz3]

God, when He makes a promise, considers the promise kept and complete at that moment. Thus, the promise of humanity’s salvation by Christ’s death on the Cross was kept and completed at the moment God made the promise. This fact accounts for the promises God made directly to Abraham, the promises made by the Old Testament prophets, the Sanctuary Services in the Jewish economy, the translation of Enoch, Moses, and Elijah to name a few other promises. Why would these men be translated unless, their penalty under sin was paid in the mind of God? What is God going to do if His plan fails throw Enoch and the others back? How absurd! God knew that His promise was already accomplished and so to translate these men was done. The translation of these three men would also be evidence of encouragement to the rest of us that God would succeed and we too would have our sin debt paid and like these men go to heaven. The idea that the Plan of Salvation could fail is a myth. It was never in doubt and the future plans of the completion of God’s will is also a done deal even though we humans have not seen it yet. Yet there are some that think that everything weighed in the balance and that it just barely was saved at the last moment. That the God who has stated that He does not change would change and at the last moment give up the Plan. This concept is not Biblical.

“Arise, Balak, and listen; hear me, son of Zippor. God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?”

Numbers 23:18-19.

“He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.”

1 Samuel 15:29.

“I the LORD do not change.”

Malachi 3:6.

“And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: ‘The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: “You are a priest forever.”.’ Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.”

Hebrews 7:20-22. [see also Psalm 110:4].

“Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.”

James 1:16-17.

[Gerr]

3. There IS a SENSE in which God is being judged by His creatures. When you say "God is just," you have made a judgment about Him.

ESV | Ro 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

Just as God in Christ stooped down to take the form of a servant, stooped down to wash the dirty feet of His disciples, so God condescends to be judged by His creatures. No, we don't try Him in a court of law. We are the ones on trial because we are the ones who have rebelled. But God is in a SENSE on trial - on trial in the court of public/universal opinion - whether He is just in His handling of the sin problem.

[miz3]

Let’s look at Christ’s own words while on earth to see if He wavered.

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

Matthew 16:21

Jesus lays out the plan knowing that He not only will die but will be raised from the dead on “the third day”. There is more.

Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death.”

Matthew 20:17,18

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this...

Mark 8:31,32

They were on their way to Jerusalem, with Jesus leading the way, and the disciples were astonished, while those who followed were afraid. Again he took the Twelve aside and told them what was going to happen to him. “We are going up to Jerusalem,” he said, “and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will hand him over to the Gentiles, who will mock him and spit on him, flog him, and kill him. Three days later he will rise.”

Mark 10:32-34

Notice the emphatic nature of the prediction. There is no “maybe” at all in these words. The use of the word “will” is undeniably clear. Jesus spoke that these things were certain to happen. After His death He seemed almost to chastise them that they did not trust not only His predictions but those of the Old Testament scriptures. It is clear that Jesus does not want them to worry about the events that are sure to take place. He wants them to be at peace that He and the Father have everything under control and that the Plan must take place in this way and everything will be all right. How typical of humanity. We hear the plain word and some how it is not enough. We want to complicate things. The nature of sin is fear. See the book of Genesis. One of the first by products of sin was that Adam and Eve were afraid. Our fear breads mistrust and it escalates to the point that we misconstrue the plain words and facts just as the disciples did. Yes there is more yet.

Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 18:31-33

This passage even includes the fact that the writers of the Old Testament predicted these things and everything they said would happen. Again and again each of the Gospel writers has used the emphatic sense. It is clear that in the mind of Christ there was no doubt, no flinching. It would happen and indeed it did.

[miz3]

“Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”

John 12:7,8

Is there a note of doubt in this expression by Christ? No! He clearly speaks of the event as a sure thing.

“Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “ I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; other said an angel had spoken to him.

Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time of judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.” He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

John 12:27-33

This is too obvious. It is also too powerful. The deal is done!

Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.”

“But we have no right to execute anyone,” the Jews objected. This happened so that the words Jesus had spoken indicating the kind of death he was going to die would be fulfilled.

John 18:31,32

Everything was planned and then orchestrated to be fulfilled. How much clearer could it be.

Later, KNOWING THAT ALL WAS NOW COMPLETED, and SO THAT THE SCRIPTURE WOULD BE FULFILLED, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.

John 19:28, 29

So much for Christ not being aware while He was on the cross. He knew that the work He and His Father set out to do was complete. There was no wavering, only confidence. They knew the outcome before, during, and after the fact. We never see any wavering anywhere. Everything Christ does and says shows that from the beginning they did not take a risk or chance and you never hear anything that even remotely intimates that God or Christ ever saw it as a risk. They knew that Their will would be done.

[miz3]

Some might say, “What about in the garden when He prayed about the cup.”? This was not a wavering where the plan was in the balance. Christ was not asking that the plan be shelved and let humanity die. He was not going to abandon the plan. He wanted only to accomplish the plan without the pain of His bearing Hell for us. Is there a less painful way for us to accomplish this? If not, we will keep it as you say, Father. This can not be construed to be a thought that Christ would chuck the whole thing and go home to His Father. Nothing in the Holy Scripture anywhere even remotely hints at such an idea, let alone say so.

The texts sited show overwhelmingly that from the beginning the “deal was done” and nothing could alter it or change the outcome. The outcome was sure. I am glad that we have a God who does not waver in His plans. He is a God that when He says something it is sure to be. God is not toying with us. This is why the ancients who looked forward to the Cross had faith and trusted that it would be so because they were certain that what God set out to do would be done no matter what. This is why we have confidence in the plan after the Cross. We know that it is a done deal. There will be no strings attached later with a “by the way didn’t I tell you ...”. We have confidence that when He said He would come back and take us to heaven that this part of the deal is done also. Or do you think that God might change His mind and the dead will not be raised and the whole plan will be abandoned. Which of you thinks that? If you do then you do not have any assurance at all. The Bible writers from beginning to end do not share this view even in the slightest. They always speak with confidence and so does God. So should we.

I am thankful that from beginning to end God has it all planned out and nothing can change the plan that He has made. As someone wrote in a hymn “Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine”. I am happy because no matter what happens God has saved me and my eternal destiny is sure because it is based solely on His Person and His Word.

[Gerr]

Let’s look at Christ’s own words while on earth to see if He wavered.

Wavering is NOT the issue. The issue is: was it possible for Christ to have sinned? If not, then He was not tempted as the Bible clearly says.

[Gustave]

WAS SUCCESS A SURE THING FOR CHRIST?

Many believe that it was not impossible for Jesus Christ to sin or in some manner fail in His mission. Many believe that during the temptation in the desert, the garden prayer session just prior to His crucifixion, and while on the Cross, that Jesus teetered on the edge and that it was nip and tuck as to whether He would succeed or fail. These persons believe that by the thinnest of threads victory was snatched from defeat.

That "God" WOULD come and SAVE the world was never a matter of "if"...

...It was ONLY a matter of when The Messiah would come.

Isa 14: 24

The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isa 46:9

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure

We are instructed in the New Testament Sacred Scriptures that God "purposed"...

...That the world would be saved ( those who acccept it ) via His Only Son.

...Who was ETERNALLY God, The Son - 'The Christ'.

Romans 8:28

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren

Eph 1:4

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

The language in Scripture IS explicit that Salvation would come Via "God" Himself...

...It was never in question, it was ONLY when would this happen!

Isaiah 35:4

Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God WILL come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come AND SAVE YOU

If one reads the Holy Gospels they will notice a simple phrase that is repeated MANY TIMES...

...They are used as PROOFS or TESTS that Jesus WAS 'The Christ'.

...Examples following.

Matthew 1:22

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying

Along with being called out of Egypt, called a Nazarene, took our infirmities, etc...

...One of many PROOFS was that God does not fail.

...Had Jesus SINNED / FALLEN he simply would NOT have been 'The Christ'.

The New Testament speaks of Jesus "taking our infirmities" and suffering from the fraility of our bodies...

...Because Jesus' flesh WAS OUR FLESH, he suffered EVERY pain, sickness, etc that humans suffer.

Hebrews 4:15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

When the text says we don't have a High Priest who hasn't been touched by the FEELING "OF" our infirmities...

...It means that Christ experienced what it was to be sick, hungry, tired, in great pain, sorrow, etc.

...The "tempting OR testing" ONLY means the issues associated with the fraility of OUR BODIES.

...It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being tempted to; have sex outside of marriage, lust, etc.

The Arian theological construct requires that Christ be able to "mutate" or be peccable...

...Simply because the Arian teaching was that Christ was NOT God in the ultimate sense.

...This is where the concept that God "risked everything" by sending His Son to earth came from.

There was NEVER any risk at all and the concept is alien to Orthodox Christianity...

...God IS; Father, Son & Holy Spirit - period.

...God became man w/out ceasing to be God.

[miz3]

Christ did not sin and as my words point out there was zero chance of Him sinning.

The fact that there was zero chance does not mean that Christ was not tempted.

A temptation is an attempt to get somebody to do something.

The possibility ratio that they will actually do that something has nothing to do with whether there was an attempt.

Gerry are you seriously telling me that there was greater than a zero chance (say 50-50) that Jesus Christ would have actually bowed down to Satan in order to be king of the world?

Is that what you are saying, Gerry?

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Let’s look at Christ’s own words while on earth to see if He wavered.

Wavering is NOT the issue. The issue is: was it possible for Christ to have sinned? If not, then He was not tempted as the Bible clearly says.

The Bible ONLY says He ( Christ ) was tempted or tested within OUR INFIRMITIES...

...And the Greek meaning of the word is ONLY related to the infirmities OF THE BODY.

2 Cor 11:30

If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities

2 Cor 12:10

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong

1 Timothy 5:23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities

If one had a problem with "lust" or other sin would drinking wine help the individual to resist the temptations of those sins???

...Of course NOT!

...Nor would the Apostle take pleasures in his temptations of lust or stealing or whatever the sin!

Infirmities is ONLY related to the body.

[miz3]

Gerry Cabalo,

Genesis 3:15 is a promise: As such most Christians believe that ALL GOD'S PROMISES ARE TRUE AND WILL NEVER BE FALSE

God could never make this be so if Christ could have sinned. Because a Christ that sinned would have made God a liar. And God can never lie.

IOW if Christ had sinned He would never have crushed the serpent's head. That means God made a promise He couldn't keep and God would be a liar.

Thus, Gerry Cabalo do you still want to say that Jesus Christ could have sinned and that when Jesus and God made all those promises, the promises were iffy and couldn't be counted on?

If that is true, how can you be sure that God can keep His promise now maybe some iffy event will will derail the whole thing?

Why would God make a promise like Genesis 3:15 if He wasn't dead sure He could keep that promise? Hmmmm!

I guess your position puts all of God's promises in jeopardy.

[Gustave]

Gerry Cabalo,

Genesis 3:15 is a promise: As such most Christians believe that ALL GOD'S PROMISES ARE TRUE AND WILL NEVER BE FALSE

God could never make this be so if Christ could have sinned. Because a Christ that sinned would have made God a liar. And God can never lie.

IOW if Christ had sinned He would never have crushed the serpent's head. That means God made a promise He couldn't keep and God would be a liar.

Thus, Gerry Cabalo do you still want to say that Jesus Christ could have sinned and that when Jesus and God made all those promises, the promises were iffy and couldn't be counted on?

If that is true, how can you be sure that God can keep His promise now maybe some iffy event will will derail the whole thing?

Why would God make a promise like Genesis 3:15 if He wasn't dead sure He could keep that promise? Hmmmm!

I guess your position puts all of God's promises in jeopardy.

Yes, you are correct and the logical terminus of the Arian / SDA rubric for a mutation capable Christ...

...Is that God ONLY exists conditionally.

...What applies to the Father applies to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

...Take the Son away and you NO LONGER have God.

Therefore "IF" Christ sinned or fell ( as Ellen White put it )...

...God would have cease to exist!

...The whole teaching is 100% irreconcilable with the Doctrine of the Trinity.

It demonstrates the Pioneers as well as Ellen White never did accept the Doctrine of the Trinity....

...Because a mutation capable Christ can't "eternally" be THE CHRIST.

...And the Bible says Jesus was "ETERNALLY THE CHRIST".

[Flyboy]

Christ did not sin and as my words point out there was zero chance of Him sinning.

The fact that there was zero chance does not mean that Christ was not tempted.

A temptation is an attempt to get somebody to do something.

Thinking this through.... if someone is tempted that means that there is vulnerability, i.e., a weakness. Weakness/vulnerability suggests a less than perfect relationship. Wouldn't a truly perfect relationship dictate that the bond is SO strong that there is not even a crack into which Satan could have wedged a knife. Temptation implies there was, in fact, a vulnerable spot.

Thus, was Jesus, the man, perfect in his relationship with His father? If He was truly tempted then the answer would seemingly be no. If He was not tempted then the answer would be yes, it was perfect.

I'm not making an argument, simply thinking out loud and following Miz3's statements to what seems to be a logical conclusion.

[Flyboy]

When was God’s plan made? If God has always existed so have His plans. Everything about God is eternal. This means that God has always existed and will always exist. God has no beginning. God created the beginning. Beginning did not exist until God created it. Thus God’s plans have always existed.

If this is true, and I'm reserving judgement at this point, then that means that God knows all, as most Christians are taught. Yes?

If true, and if there was no chance of sinning, then, as another poster as asked, what was the point? It was a charade. Let me take that one step further....

IF, as you say, all plans are in place, have always been, things are eternal, then did God know Satan would fall from Heaven? If so, then why did He create him in the first place? Why did Christ create a Satan would would then cause the fall of the Earth and thousands of years of terrible, brutal suffering? Did God know? Why not prevent it? Simply to prove that He is God? Seems like a pretty cruel joke to me!

OR.... it is possible that there are some things that God doesn't know? Is it possible that what we call 'human nature' is actually 'God nature'... the inclination of man to sin? If we admit that then we have to admit that perhaps God's creation is imperfect.

In fact, I think no matter how you cut it you have to admit that God's creation is imperfect. What does that say about God? Why would God carry out such a terrible experiment? Is that really all we humans are, at the end of the day?

[miz3]

Thinking this through.... if someone is tempted that means that there is vulnerability, i.e., a weakness. Weakness/vulnerability suggests a less than perfect relationship. Wouldn't a truly perfect relationship dictate that the bond is SO strong that there is not even a crack into which Satan could have wedged a knife. Temptation implies there was, in fact, a vulnerable spot.

Thus, was Jesus, the man, perfect in his relationship with His father? If He was truly tempted then the answer would seemingly be no. If He was not tempted then the answer would be yes, it was perfect.

I like your questions. Whether you like my answers is up in the air.

1. I do not agree that to be tempted automatically means there is a vulnerability. If you admit that you are "tempted" to do what the temptation wants then you are indeed vulnerable.

However, I may try to tempt you to say, kill someone, however you have zero desire to do this and you throw my attempt to get you to kill someone aside without out even giving me the time of day except to tell quote the Commandment "thou shalt not kill". In this example I tried to tempt you maybe by trying to offer you something but you don't care anything about my attempt or my so-called reward. You just are not going to ever do it. I tempted you but you have zero desire and there is zero chance that you will even give any consideration to my temptation.

Thus, there is no weakness in you. My temptation is worth nothing.

2. Your bond is so tight with the Law of God that there is and ever will be not even a scintilla of desire or even a scintilla of chance that you will even consider my temptation. You simply brush it aside with the greatest disdain that would even insult you with such a proposition.

3. Jesus was so intimate with the Father that there despite attempts to tempt Him Jesus Christ just repeatedly brushed them aside.

Does that help, or does that make more muddy, or in your mind is that just not an answer you can agree with?

[miz3]

If this is true, and I'm reserving judgement at this point, then that means that God knows all, as most Christians are taught. Yes?

If true, and if there was no chance of sinning, then, as another poster as asked, what was the point? It was a charade. Let me take that one step further....

IF, as you say, all plans are in place, have always been, things are eternal, then did God know Satan would fall from Heaven? If so, then why did He create him in the first place? Why did Christ create a Satan would would then cause the fall of the Earth and thousands of years of terrible, brutal suffering? Did God know? Why not prevent it? Simply to prove that He is God? Seems like a pretty cruel joke to me!

OR.... it is possible that there are some things that God doesn't know? Is it possible that what we call 'human nature' is actually 'God nature'... the inclination of man to sin? If we admit that then we have to admit that perhaps God's creation is imperfect.

In fact, I think no matter how you cut it you have to admit that God's creation is imperfect. What does that say about God? Why would God carry out such a terrible experiment? Is that really all we humans are, at the end of the day?

1. God knows all and always has known all. Nothing is hid from God, ever!

2. Yes, God knew Satan would fall.

3. From a human point of view it would seem like a very cruel joke. However, Paul in Romans has an answer to this query. I will quote it here.

"I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen.

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;

and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”

26 and,

“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,

‘You are not my people,’

they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”[j]

27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,

only the remnant will be saved.

28 For the Lord will carry out

his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty

had left us descendants,

we would have become like Sodom,

we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]

Israel’s Unbelief

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.” 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble

and a rock that makes them fall,

and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Romans chapter 9.

A. Paul says that he speaks the truth in Christ.

B. Paul quotes the OT that He will be arbitrary and show mercy to whom ever He arbitrarily wants. The Paul cites Isaac's sons as an example.

C. Then Paul speaks truth in Christ that He hardened Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh could be used simply to glorify God. This may seem to us as unfair or manipulative or something else. However the language is clear.

D. Then Paul anticipates your question as whether this is fair on the part of God. Why does God still blame us since we are just the puppets of His arbitrariness and victims of His power.

E. Paul states in the clearest of tones that the Creator can do what He wants and the Creation can never cry foul because the pot never says to the potter why did you make the rules and me like this. He also states that it is human arrogance to even ask such a question.

F. You as a human may think according to your standards and your definitions that such a God would not be what He says He is when He says He is the definition of Love. When humans say this they are the ones defining the term Love. God defined the word as One who would lay down His life for sinful snots like me and you. So God not us is the definer. He made us sinful so as display His great mercy and His great Love for us. Who is to say there is a better way? Humans or God?

This is Paul's argument and I agree with Paul.

F. God Himself said that His work of Creation was and is perfect. No imperfections here.

G. That creates the question, How can something Perfect become sin.

First, on Satan's part. Second, on Adam and Eve's part. Satan's sin is never explained in "How" and so we can't argue that for lack of evidence.

Adam and Eve are different because of the "Tree of KoG&E".

I have gone long and apologize for my loquaciousness.

[Flyboy]

Sorry for the delayed reply. I hadn't seen your response. Thanks for the PM.

Two follow-ups.

1. So then, we are predestined? I don't believe that. I'm not familiar with this particular passage, not all of it anyway, but thanks for posting it. I will explore it further.

2. If God wanted to show his power to the universe, and by doing so it was necessary to create a world of pain and suffering, does this not show lack of creativity on God's part.... or at least lack of perfection (because he wasn't able to come up with a less painful demonstration)?

This world is certainly not perfect, it is a total failure, except for the minority who will be saved by Jesus blood. If I were a boss and were filling out an eval on God, based on this project alone, I would have to recommend termination of employment, but would note the few bright spots which allowed some people to be saved.

In my gut I feel there must be some other explanation, as I don't think God is a mean God.

I need to explore the passage you posted, and others. Thanks.

[Gary K]

In my gut I feel there must be some other explanation, as I don't think God is a mean God.

The explanation you are looking for is the concept of the Great Controversy. There is no other theme by which the Bible makes logical sense from beginning to end.

If God is a God of love, and desired to have a love-based relationships with His sentient creations, could He have arbitrarily made sin impossible from the beginning?

[Flyboy]

If God is a God of love, and desired to have a love-based relationships with His sentient creations, could He have arbitrarily made sin impossible from the beginning?

But God being God, why didn't he make it impossible from the beginning? No one would have known the difference. And, as for being arbitrary, another poster pointed out in Romans that God clearly *is* arbitrary.

Second, because he didn't make it impossible to sin, because there is choice, does this suggest that God's creation is imperfect? Or that God is imperfect if we are created in His image?

This question is, in my mind, the most difficult for the human mind to grapple with for the simple fact that ultimately we must accept, or reject, the Bible and Jesus as our savior. But that the logic seems so very easy, and that there seems to be no answer, makes accepting it much more difficult.

There is another possibility. Is it possible that we have misunderstood the character of God completely, building a box around a personality that is vastly different from the interpretation that our forefathers handed down to us?

[Gary K]

But God being God, why didn't he make it impossible from the beginning? No one would have known the difference. And, as for being arbitrary, another poster pointed out in Romans that God clearly *is* arbitrary.

Second, because he didn't make it impossible to sin, because there is choice, does this suggest that God's creation is imperfect? Or that God is imperfect if we are created in His image?

This question is, in my mind, the most difficult for the human mind to grapple with for the simple fact that ultimately we must accept, or reject, the Bible and Jesus as our savior. But that the logic seems so very easy, and that there seems to be no answer, makes accepting it much more difficult.

There is another possibility. Is it possible that we have misunderstood the character of God completely, building a box around a personality that is vastly different from the interpretation that our forefathers handed down to us?

You are going to have to point out the arbitrariness in Romans. I don't believe it's there, but is seen that way because of a misunderstanding.

As to whether you and I understand the character of God or not, I can't speak to your understanding of Him. For me, my mind is settled as to who God is, and what His character is like. I've known Him for years, and I'm very aware of the difference He has made in my life.

Why does a God who respects you enough to give you the power of choice suggest an imperfect God to you? And what do you see as the implied imperfection?