WAS SUCCESS A SURE THING FOR CHRIST?

[miz3]

There is another possibility. Is it possible that we have misunderstood the character of God completely, building a box around a personality that is vastly different from the interpretation that our forefathers handed down to us?

I think humans are naturally bent to build a box around God and claim that this is exactly what He is like. We naturally build boxes to fit things into because then it is easy for us to understand the picture. However, I do not believe God can be understood by such a method.

The Jews in Christ's day thought they knew what the Messiah would exactly be. Today we can clearly see that they missed the boat entirely. Their preconceived notions threw them completely off. Even the disciples did not understand until after the Cross.

I think today we are in danger of doing the same thing. We think we have God all figured out based on a few Bible texts and what has been handed down to us for centuries.

[miz3]

Two follow-ups.

1. So then, we are predestined? I don't believe that. I'm not familiar with this particular passage, not all of it anyway, but thanks for posting it. I will explore it further.

2. If God wanted to show his power to the universe, and by doing so it was necessary to create a world of pain and suffering, does this not show lack of creativity on God's part.... or at least lack of perfection (because he wasn't able to come up with a less painful demonstration)?

This world is certainly not perfect, it is a total failure, except for the minority who will be saved by Jesus blood. If I were a boss and were filling out an eval on God, based on this project alone, I would have to recommend termination of employment, but would note the few bright spots which allowed some people to be saved.

In my gut I feel there must be some other explanation, as I don't think God is a mean God.

I need to explore the passage you posted, and others. Thanks.

1. I don't think we are "predestined" in the classic sense. Jeremiah chapter 29, states that God has plans of us. He states that those plans are plans that express His love for us. God also in a number of other places states that He has plans and they will go forward.

2. Humans can reject God's plans for them. If rejection is not demonstrated by the human then God continues to do the plan and the human is swept up in it.

3. Take the promises of God which demonstrate His plans: Genesis 3:15; the promises to Abraham. These promises were also God revealing His plans. Now ask yourself, why would God make these a promise if He could not fulfill them. If these promises could be destroyed by any other entity or power, then how can we then have trust that God will fulfill any of His promises.

For instance, Christ promised His Disciples that He would come to them in the Second Coming. ALL SDA believe this promise 100%. Not a doubter in the bunch. If God's other promises about Christ crushing the devil's head was iffy iffy, in that Christ could have sinned, then how can we have such confidence in the Second Coming? What conditions could be lurking that might destroy this promise too?

Such things are absurd and not supported by the Bible. It was a sure thing with no possibility of failure by any means that Christ would crush the devil's head. Thus, impossible for Christ to have sinned. Because it was impossible for Christ to sin we can have confidence in ALL OF GOD'S PROMISES!

This fact means that Jesus Christ was "Predestined" to win and that the win would not even be close.

Human suffering has always been a stumbling block in the human mind in regard to a loving God, let alone an arbitrary God. However, Paul points in Romans chapter 8, that all things work together for God's people. That means the opposite is true, that they don't work together for those who don't love God.

What does working together mean? It means that no matter what happens to God's people they will win and everything good will always be the way it happens. Yet we see what appears to us "innocent" good people getting the nasty end constantly. Like I said, "it appears to us". God sees things differently than we do. In spite of all the seeming "bad" God sees great Glory and great Triumph! Throughout Christ's pain and suffering God saw great joy, great triumph, great good! God also saw great Glory to HIM and to His ways.

Again, we run into the paradoxes of God. Could God have done it a different way? Sure enough! However, of the infinite choices available to God, He wanted this way. Like Paul says, who are we to question God, cannot the potter do what he likes with the pot?

You see we are pots and God is the potter. If God wanted to be nasty, and I am not saying He is, could we do anything about it? It does not matter what the pot may or may not think, it is not important to the potter. What is important to the potter is what the potter thinks and does. The pot cannot claim injustice because the pot has no standing before the potter. In order to plead injustice in a court you have to demonstrate standing. Humans like the pot as created beings, made of dirt mind you, have no standing.

Humans were not consulted as to when and where they were born. Humans were not consulted as to what they inherited. There is a whole lot about our existence that we humans have no say in. We are the victims of circumstances way beyond our control.

God decided when and where we would be born and to whom. God as Daniel and beasts points out controls who is up and who is down. Just check out Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel chapter four.

We humans like to think we are in control so we make everything about us and our ability to choose and the possibility of God failing and being in some kind of box.

The Bible supports that God is in control and He is in control of everything and God is not a victim, or a gambler.

God is not a mean God, the Cross demonstrates His perfect Love. He demonstrated His perfect Love for us under the most difficult of circumstances. It would have been easy to demonstrate love when everything is perfect, but is infinitely more challenging when the conditions are less than ideal. Paul in Romans Chapter nine states that God does things in order to demonstrate His infinite Mercy and Goodness to us.

The fact that a pot might do it differently from the potter demonstrates the total vapidness of human thought and plans. This is demonstrated between the plans of Abraham and the plans of God in regard to the promised son. Which plan worked best? It's a no brainer. The potter is infinitely superior to the pot. The pot hardly, if ever, could put a coherent thought together unless the potter did it for the pot. Paul's analogy of the potter and pot is Priceless!

That is why our evaluations are worth nothing.

[Overaged]

3. There IS a SENSE in which God is being judged by His creatures. When you say "God is just," you have made a judgment about Him.

ESV | Ro 3:4 By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, “That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.”

Just as God in Christ stooped down to take the form of a servant, stooped down to wash the dirty feet of His disciples, so God condescends to be judged by His creatures. No, we don't try Him in a court of law. We are the ones on trial because we are the ones who have rebelled. But God is in a SENSE on trial - on trial in the court of public/universal opinion - whether He is just in His handling of the sin problem.

The Bible tells us "that He may be Just, and The Justifier;" of those who believe in Jesus.

We, as Christians do not make a judgement about God per se; rather, we observe & witness this about Him. "Ye are my witnesses," and a witness of God or for God does not judge God; he is God's witness of what he has seen (1 John 1:1-3)...

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: flyboy

There is another possibility. Is it possible that we have misunderstood the character of God completely, building a box around a personality that is vastly different from the interpretation that our forefathers handed down to us?

I think humans are naturally bent to build a box around God and claim that this is exactly what He is like. We naturally build boxes to fit things into because then it is easy for us to understand the picture. However, I do not believe God can be understood by such a method.

The Jews in Christ's day thought they knew what the Messiah would exactly be. Today we can clearly see that they missed the boat entirely. Their preconceived notions threw them completely off. Even the disciples did not understand until after the Cross.

I think today we are in danger of doing the same thing. We think we have God all figured out based on a few Bible texts and what has been handed down to us for centuries.

Its a good point that we do not have the ability to know God completely; but what we do know can be sufficient; it is not how well we know Him; it's what we do with what we do know.

[Flyboy]

As to whether you and I understand the character of God or not, I can't speak to your understanding of Him. For me, my mind is settled as to who God is, and what His character is like. I've known Him for years, and I'm very aware of the difference He has made in my life.

Why does a God who respects you enough to give you the power of choice suggest an imperfect God to you? And what do you see as the implied imperfection?

I have seen the wonderful difference in my life as well, and I would not even think of living without Him in my life, but that doesn't mean that I understand God fully. In fact, I don't think anyone can claim to understand God fully.

And you didn't answer the question I asked. I didn't imply the imperfection, I stated it clearly. Does an imperfect world suggest a Creator who is also not perfect?

[miz3]

Its a good point that we do not have the ability to know God completely; but what we do know can be sufficient; it is not how well we know Him; it's what we do with what we do know.

Agreed! As long as we continue to strive to know Him more and more. And to deepen and broaden our understanding. I believe God will continue to increase our knowledge of Him provided we are interested.