Stephen Hawking, NO heaven

[Gary K]

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked, that an athiest says there is no heaven. More breaking news at 11....

[Overaged]

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked, that an athiest says there is no heaven. More breaking news at 11....

Maybe I am a bit of a rebel on this topic but having looked after people in wheel chairs, and being in one myself for a few months; I can understand how Hawkings would feel the way he writes about God. People should try to put themselves in his shoes before saying most of what they do about him.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked, that an athiest says there is no heaven. More breaking news at 11....

Maybe I am a bit of a rebel on this topic but having looked after people in wheel chairs, and being in one myself for a few months; I can understand how Hawkings would feel the way he writes about God. People should try to put themselves in his shoes before saying most of what they do about him.

That any athiest would make such a declaration should be no surprise to any of us.

As to Hawking and his disability, I don't see that anyone who has accomplished what he has can be someone who throws himself pity parties.

Am I not supposed to disagree with him just because he is disabled physically? Will God give him a pass and allow him entrance to heaven just because he lived his life in a wheel chair?

God has said none of us will be tempted above what we are able to endure, so He has made a way of escape for Hawking too. The problem for Hawking at this point is that he has not accepted God's help, nor does he express any inclination to do so.

All that said, just what did I say about Hawking that he doesn't say publicly about himself? I hardly see that as denigrating him. Disagreeing with him? Yes. Denigrating him? No.

[BobRyan]

Hawking seems to resolve the issue as being a case where mankind itself can only survive for about 200 more years if we are so lucky as to not be taken over by a hostile alien race before then.

Thus Hawking's own departure from this world is not such a bad thing after all - since the rest of us are pretty much doomed anyway.

What a great time to introduce the Gospel!

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

Hawking seems to resolve the issue as being a case where mankind itself can only survive for about 200 more years if we are so lucky as to not be taken over by a hostile alien race before then.

Thus Hawking's own departure from this world is not such a bad thing after all - since the rest of us are pretty much doomed anyway.

What a great time to introduce the Gospel!

in Christ,

Bob

Don't you find it odd that Hawking allows for the possibility of the evolution of intelligent life, even more highly evolved intelligent life, in the the universe but is so set against a Creator? If intelligence could evolve to the point that some form of life could create another form of intelligent life then wouldn't that open up the possibility of there being a Creator of this world? Does he reject theistic evolution?

[BobRyan]

The atheist that first suggested the multiverse solution to the problem of our finely tuned universe with its cosmological constant - was asked a similar question.

They needed an almost infinite number of other "imagined" universes so as to make our extremely unlikely "tuned universe" not so statistically extreme.

But then they were asked how "smart" we on this planet are as compared to all the intelligent life in all of the almost infinite universes they are "proposing". It was hard to argue that we would be the smartest which left the very real option that other intelligent races are out there many 1000's or millions or ... of years older than we. So if WE ourselves are going toward some kind of virtual reality modeling for life in 500 years or a 1000 years - what are the odds that Earth ITSELF is just a game or an experiment by one of those other more advance races?

In essence they have talked themselves back around to -- there is a God.

in Christ,

Bob

[doug yowell]

Am I not supposed to disagree with him just because he is disabled physically? Will God give him a pass and allow him entrance to heaven just because he lived his life in a wheel chair?

Hawking's physical condition is no different that multitudes of others. Everyone's response to the gospel is different.Hawking seems to be a active opponent,Charles Krauthammer tends to be agnostic, Joni Tada is on actively working for the Creator. I tend to believe (as the Scripture points out)that those who have been given minds that are more brilliant tend to have more difficulty in accepting the simplicity of the gospel and the boundries of their own ability to understand all things.

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Am I not supposed to disagree with him just because he is disabled physically? Will God give him a pass and allow him entrance to heaven just because he lived his life in a wheel chair?

Hawking's physical condition is no different that multitudes of others. Everyone's response to the gospel is different.Hawking seems to be a active opponent,Charles Krauthammer tends to be agnostic, Joni Tada is on actively working for the Creator. I tend to believe (as the Scripture points out)that those who have been given minds that are more brilliant tend to have more difficulty in accepting the simplicity of the gospel and the boundries of their own ability to understand all things.

I agree. Genius and arrogance often go hand-in-hand.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yeah, but stupidity and arrogance just go foot-in-mouth...

[Gail]

Yeah, but stupidity and arrogance just go foot-in-mouth...

That's showing some genius right there! I think I will steal that... :)

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Maybe I am a bit of a rebel on this topic but having looked after people in wheel chairs, and being in one myself for a few months; I can understand how Hawkings would feel the way he writes about God. People should try to put themselves in his shoes before saying most of what they do about him. /quote']

That any athiest would make such a declaration should be no surprise to any of us.

As to Hawking and his disability, I don't see that anyone who has accomplished what he has can be someone who throws himself pity parties.

Am I not supposed to disagree with him just because he is disabled physically? Will God give him a pass and allow him entrance to heaven just because he lived his life in a wheel chair?

God has said none of us will be tempted above what we are able to endure, so He has made a way of escape for Hawking too. The problem for Hawking at this point is that he has not accepted God's help, nor does he express any inclination to do so.

All that said, just what did I say about Hawking that he doesn't say publicly about himself? I hardly see that as denigrating him. Disagreeing with him? Yes. Denigrating him? No.

I was hoping that no one would go this route - but of course, someone just did. It doesn't matter how much education someone has, they will experience similar thoughts and feelings as anyone else with disabilities. You don't know what Hawking has accepted or not acepted, and you have no way of predicting how God can reach him. I would love to tie you up in a wheel chair for a month and watch the happy cheerful look on your face as you try to even get to the bathroom. Until you know what that's like don't go judging someone like him. No one said you couldn't disagree with him. I just thought I would urge a different kind of outlook here, that would show him the mercy we all expect God to give us.

[Overaged]

Ha ha! Another good one Tom!

[Overaged]

I agree. Genius and arrogance often go hand-in-hand.

Well; a quick check of church history will show that being "right" and arrogance also go hand in hand, or foot in mouth..

[Gary K]

I was hoping that no one would go this route - but of course, someone just did. It doesn't matter how much education someone has, they will experience similar thoughts and feelings as anyone else with disabilities. You don't know what Hawking has accepted or not acepted, and you have no way of predicting how God can reach him. I would love to tie you up in a wheel chair for a month and watch the happy cheerful look on your face as you try to even get to the bathroom. Until you know what that's like don't go judging someone like him. No one said you couldn't disagree with him. I just thought I would urge a different kind of outlook here, that would show him the mercy we all expect God to give us.

Where, in what I said, did I say anything like the words and motives you're putting in my mouth?

In agreeing with him that he is an atheist do I judge him and imply in any way that he cannot be saved, or that God cannot reach him?

You know, if I had said, "that wheel-chair bound idiot sure is a fool" I could see a reason for your anger. Over what I did say I simply don't understand it in the least.

Oh, and just what do you mean by "this route"?

Are you offended by the fact that on the judgment day it won't matter why any of us rejected salvation, only that we did?

[Overaged]

[Gary K]

Originally Posted By: Gary K

Are you offended by the fact that maybe you are reading Hawking wrong? And that maybe you are reading me wrong. "Anger" and "offended" are defensive responses to legitimate questions I posed. The kind of judgment placed on me, for those comments, might just reflect upon your judgment of Hawking. But I can assure you that I am just fine - nary any anger. I'm just raising an important point.

Did you ever consider that the Bible says: "A fool says in his heart there is no God?" (Psalms 53:1) Notice the text does not say they really believe it. It just says they do "self-talk" repeating over and over in their heart that there is no God. many times; people with severe disability will be in this frame of mind; but if they are one of the ones who don't really believe what they say in their heart; how many missed opportunities we must have created with how we view such people?

Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. [/quote']

Well, I figured you would not answer my sincere questions by explaining to me exactly how I was wrong, and I was correct. Instead you accuse me of anger. You're wrong once again....

Consider the issue closed as far as I'm concerned, if you won't answer sincere questions. I had thought better of you than this, but that's the way things go.

[Overaged]

Pro 28:26 He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. /quote]

Well, I figured you would not answer my sincere questions by explaining to me exactly how I was wrong, and I was correct. Instead you accuse me of anger. You're wrong once again....

Consider the issue closed as far as I'm concerned, if you won't answer sincere questions. I had thought better of you than this, but that's the way things go.

Wow, man relax. If you re-read my post; I did not accuse you of being "angry" or "offended." I was saying that that is what you called me, and I was trying to say that I thought maybe those adjectives were quite misplaced. I was not intending to make it personal; I was trying to address the idea, based on specific words you used. Even in this last post of yours, you state "I figured" in reference to me, and this shows a clear judgment on your part that you have no way of actually knowing. You seemed to be talking about Hawking the same way.

So; all I was saying is that maybe you are judging Hawking in ways you should not just because he is so vocal about his views on God and heaven. What he says is not a threat to truth and we can afford to speak more hopefully about him.

I still think that if we could put ourselves in Hawking's shoes, most of us would talk about him quite differently.

[Bravus]

Overaged, we're in agreement here. (An occasion worth noting. )

I also question whether Hawking is an 'active opponent' of Christian faith: I think he is musing and talking about what he sees in the scientific evidence. Have to admit I haven't read the book, but I don't think he's preaching no-one should believe, just saying that he finds himself personally unable.

[Overaged]

Yes; lol I do agree with you. All I am saying is that I also think that more than just scientific evidence is in the playing field here.

[Gary K]

Wow, man relax. If you re-read my post; I did not accuse you of being "angry" or "offended." I was saying that that is what you called me, and I was trying to say that I thought maybe those adjectives were quite misplaced. I was not intending to make it personal; I was trying to address the idea, based on specific words you used. Even in this last post of yours, you state "I figured" in reference to me, and this shows a clear judgment on your part that you have no way of actually knowing. You seemed to be talking about Hawking the same way.

So; all I was saying is that maybe you are judging Hawking in ways you should not just because he is so vocal about his views on God and heaven. What he says is not a threat to truth and we can afford to speak more hopefully about him.

I still think that if we could put ourselves in Hawking's shoes, most of us would talk about him quite differently.

I don't see what any of your answers to me, or your accusations about me denigrating Hawking have to do with anything I've actually said. That's the basis for my questions to you. Your answer to me, after ignoring all the questions I asked requesting clarificationto explain to me your problem with me, was to imply that I was angry because I had somehow misinterpreted Hawking saying, I'm an athiest, to actually mean he is an athiest. Wow. What a brutal twisting of his words.

And you want to tell me to calm down? I've approached this calmly and you haven't. You've wanted to basically do violence to me over nothing. That, and the fact that you haven't answered a single question I've asked you is why I said I figured you wouldn't answer my questions that time either. You know, expecting you to continue to act the same way you had been acting.

[doug yowell]

Yeah, but stupidity and arrogance just go foot-in-mouth...

Yuck,not a pleasant word picture.

[doug yowell]

And you want to tell me to calm down? I've approached this calmly and you haven't. You've wanted to basically do violence to me over nothing. That, and the fact that you haven't answered a single question I've asked you is why I said I figured you wouldn't answer my questions that time either. You know, expecting you to continue to act the same way you had been acting.

Take a deep breath, Gary. One of these days you'll look back on this experience and laugh.

[doug yowell]

Overaged, we're in agreement here. (An occasion worth noting. )

I also question whether Hawking is an 'active opponent' of Christian faith: I think he is musing and talking about what he sees in the scientific evidence. Have to admit I haven't read the book, but I don't think he's preaching no-one should believe, just saying that he finds himself personally unable.

No,he just says that heaven is for those who are afraid of the dark.Nothing belittling to the multitudes of people who believe in heaven?? Do you think his comments were meant for himself only? His public lectures, his books, his interviews, ect... are just his own private musings?? That may be stretching the benefit of the doubt just a little too far,Brav.

[Bravus]

See the 'Respect' thread.

[Overaged]

See the 'Respect' thread.

Help me out Bravus. Where is that?