Coffee is good for U

[Twilight II]

The clear context of that verse is about sexual immorality. Paul also wrote that the kingdom of heaven was not about eating and drinking... Read Romans 14.

Your body is a temple only in relation to sexual activity and you can abuse it any other way if you want to?

Is that what you are reading here Tom?

:-)

[Twilight II]

Right, exactly.

So then, with this major study:

http://www.annals.org/content/148/12/904.short

It says that coffee *does not* increase mortality, and that coffee *may* offer some benefits that *reduce* mortality.

If your body is a temple, then you should give it the things that are good for it.

Again, not advocating coffee, clarifying the illogic of the claims being made.

Remember my own scientific study earlier Bravus?

I would put more trust in that I think...

After all and affected heart rate, headaches and dizzy spells pretty much seem to be conclusive that caffeine is not something to take for pleasure...

[Bravus]

...because your case study with a sample size of 1 is more scientifically compelling than a study of 128,000 people...

Your study is generalisable to you: so you should *definitely* not drink coffee.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Let's go to some bottom lines.

1. Is coffee drinking something that will condemn any and all

committed Christians of any label (Catholics, various

Protestants, Adventists, others) to the fiery pit?

2. If not, why all the furfural?

3. Is coffee drinking something that will condemn any coffee

imbibing committed Adventist to the fiery pit?

4. If not, why all the furfural?

5. Will all Christians who drink coffee, assuming they are

otherwise totally committed Christians, be awarded

salvation and eternal bliss? If yes, why all the

furfural? (Gracious. I know a lotta good Cajun Catholic

Christians who insist on their coffee - sweet as love,

black as death, and hot as Hell. Probably wouldn't give

it up even with the threat of the fiery pit.)

6. Or, are you straining at one of the most minuscule gnats

ever alive, while pretending to swallow an imaginary camel?

Ultimately, does an infinitely intelligent, unconditionally

loving, kind, merciful God give a rip whether you drink

coffee or not? Or is NOT drinking coffee one of those

categories of doing or not doing that will help you gain

salvation?

God bless us all, coffee non-drinkers and drinkers. And guess what? Assuming we are addressing non-coffee drinking versus coffee drinking, God DOES bless us all.

JawgeFromJawja

[CoAspen]

[ClubV12]

"Let's go to some bottom lines."

The bottom line varies among people according to the light that have received or could have received, had they been open to it, studying it, searching for it like hidden treasure.

We are told to strive to be among the 144,000. In pursuing that goal, one must then ask, what is the character of that group? What lifestyle have they adopted? What counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy have they incorporated into their lives? How is it possible to live through that time without an intercessor in Heaven?

Coffee is the tip of the ice berg....

[Bravus]

Consistently breaking the 9th commandment without an intercessor would be... hazardous.

[shelly]

"Let's go to some bottom lines."

The bottom line varies among people according to the light that have received or could have received, had they been open to it, studying it, searching for it like hidden treasure.

We are told to strive to be among the 144,000. In pursuing that goal, one must then ask, what is the character of that group? What lifestyle have they adopted? What counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy have they incorporated into their lives? How is it possible to live through that time without an intercessor in Heaven?

Coffee is the tip of the ice berg....

We all are trying to live according to the light that we have recieved. The issue is what each one considers light. You are condeming others because they do not agree with the light you have recieved. I am not ignoring any light-that would be a grevious error. The lifestyle that I am adopting involves loving God with all my heart and soul and loving my neighboor as myself. After all, isn't that what Jesus said were the greatest commandments? Striving for any other lifestyle would be pointless. Besides,I highly doubt coffee drinking or not drinking will be an issue when Jesus comes. It is our character that he is interested in.

[ClubV12]

I'm not condeming anyone, the counsel of Ellen White is clear on coffee drinking. If you believe Ellen White is inspired on this point (coffee) and you refuse to follow that counsel, you condem yourself. If you don't believe she is inspired on the issue of coffee, thats between you and God.

Whether you believe or not, the counsel remains, it's pertinent to this discussion, it's pertinent to this Seventh-day Adventist forum. What you do with that counsel is up to you.

Personally, I believe Ellen White IS directly inspired on her counsel as it concerns coffee. As such, it does matter, it cannot be easily dismissed because it's a message directly from the Lord to His people in this day and age.

[shelly]

I'm not condeming anyone, the counsel of Ellen White is clear on coffee drinking. If you believe Ellen White is inspired on this point (coffee) and you refuse to follow that counsel, you condem yourself. If you don't believe she is inspired on the issue of coffee, thats between you and God.

Whether you believe or not, the counsel remains, it's pertinent to this discussion, it's pertinent to this Seventh-day Adventist forum. What you do with that counsel is up to you.

Personally, I believe Ellen White IS directly inspired on her counsel as it concerns coffee. As such, it does matter, it cannot be easily dismissed because it's a message directly from the Lord to His people in this day and age.

The key to this phrase is for you. Just as your belief in her counsel on this subject makes this matter to you, my belief that she is mistaken makes her councel irrelivant in my decision.

[CoAspen]

I don't think you understand how words are used. You elevate you opinion by saying it isn't you doing the condemnation but someone else your are quoting and if a person chooses to ignore that, then, well, they condemn them self!

You are still doing the condemning, it is unshiftable. Inherent in your statement is the age old argument, 'I'm right, you're wrong'! Is that what Christianity is all about? You have supreme confidence in 'your' rightness? Remember the publican standing in the temple exclaiming his rightness?

Think about it.

[ClubV12]

"You are still doing the condemning, it is unshiftable. Inherent in your statement is the age old argument, 'I'm right, you're wrong'! Is that what Christianity is all about? You have supreme confidence in 'your' rightness? Remember the publican standing in the temple exclaiming his rightness?"

I believe the counsel of Ellen White on coffee is inspired. I do indeed have SUPREME CONFIDENCE in that statement. It's not open to debate, it doesn't matter what science has to say, it's not dependant of the fundamental beliefs, baptism or christianity. Your's or anyone elses opinion is irrelevant to what I believe on this subject, because for me, it is settled.

If that condems you, that is between you and God. I am simply giving my testimony on the matter, what I believe to be true. You can accept it or reject it, it's OK, it's your choice.

So, why are you condeming ME for my opinion?

shelly says,

"...my belief that she is mistaken makes her councel irrelivant in my decision." OK then, thats Shellys opinion, I don't have a problem with that. I see it differently, thats all.

[Twilight II]

I don't think you understand how words are used. You elevate you opinion by saying it isn't you doing the condemnation but someone else your are quoting and if a person chooses to ignore that, then, well, they condemn them self!

You are still doing the condemning, it is unshiftable. Inherent in your statement is the age old argument, 'I'm right, you're wrong'! Is that what Christianity is all about? You have supreme confidence in 'your' rightness? Remember the publican standing in the temple exclaiming his rightness?

Think about it.

Is this not one finger pointing forward and three pointing back coaspen?

Have you considered that possibility? :-)

[shelly]

Why bother in this conversation then? Your opinion is "right" and it condems others that don't believe as you do. If we don't believe as you do about the council of EGW we are ignoring God's light. That is fine if you believe that. I really don't care. What others are trying to do is give a difference of opinion. Not everyone believes as you do and they have the right to voice their opposition to what we feel are incorrect and sweeping statements. It is o.k. to disagree without condemnation. If you choose not to enjoy a cup of morning coffee it doesn't affect me. My enjoying my cup in the morining has no affect on you. I know at the end of the age that this will not be an issue for either of us.

[Tom Wetmore]

Someone didn't read Romans 14 as I suggested.

Paul said, the kingdom of heaven is not about eating and drinking. He also said that each should decide in their own mind and keep it to themselves and not to judge another for what they put in their stomach, or not.

[ClubV12]

I believe Ellen White is inspired on her counsel as it concerns coffee.

So what? So why does that condem you or make you feel guilty? If you are so sure of your position that Ellen White is NOT inspired on this issue you would be at peace with your position. You wouldn't be lashing out at someone that disagrees with you. If your NOT at peace with your position, perhaps that is why you have these feelings of guilt and condemnation? I AM at peace with my position, why do you hate me for that?

[ClubV12]

Tom, this thread is a discussion on coffee, good, bad. If we kept our opinions to ourselves, there wouldn't be a thread at all.

I'm not sure what your suggesting by saying "keep it to yourself". That ONLY those who like and drink coffee can respond? That all others should shut up? What?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Someone didn't read Romans 14 as I suggested.

Paul said, the kingdom of heaven is not about eating and drinking. He also said that each should decide in their own mind and keep it to themselves and not to judge another for what they put in their stomach, or not.

Paul's recommendation should stop any notion of condemnation, be it self condemnation or condemnation from others, of eating and drinking coffee, tea, and other nutrients. But it won't - too many of all religious faiths value their self strokes earned by compliance with a worthless list of do nots.

World wide, green tea is a major source of safe water. Just as wine-laced water was necessary in days of yore.

JawgeFromJawja

[shelly]

Over-reaching again. This has become the issue rather than the subject at hand-your fantastic statements that are inflammatory.

[ClubV12]

Wow, it's amazing how guilty so many feel just because I have an opinion on the matter which is different from yours. WHY does that bother you, TOM? Shelly? CoAspen? Jawge? Are you people that insecure?

Now you would suggest I keep my opinions to myself? Again, why? I belive God created the earth in 6 days. No problem for you if you agree to that, but what if don't? Will someone start posting bible verses designed to make me stop saying it? Will those who don't believe and are offended by it force me into silence?

Who is condeming who on this thread? You are condeming yourselves because you can't handle my opinion, it bothers you, perhaps it's your own guilt? I don't know, but I will say it again.

Ellen White, the Lords inspired messenger, prophetess, has offered inspired counsel on coffee. Some believe that, some don't. I believe it. I won't be intimidated into shutting up about.

For those posting bible verses trying to shut me up, get off your sanctimonius high horse and look in your own mirror, TOM.

[shelly]

ClubV12, once again it isn't what you are saying it is how you are saying it. However if you can't see that it is your tone and attitude attatched to your view that is offputting there is no reason to try to reason with you. Being right but alienating everyone while trying to prove your point usually gets you no where. Any good you could do is lost. (Not that I think that you are right),

[Bravus]

ClubV12, what you've been saying for the past couple of pages, I'm actually 100% OK with. You are saying 'I believe coffee is unhealthy, based on Ellen White's counsel on the topic, which I believe is inspired'.

I have zero problem with that. Throughout this entire 400+ post discussion, my sole concern has been with people who claim that the *science* shows that drinking coffee is unhealthy, and misrepresent what the *science* says.

If people will either (a) just leave the science out of it entirely and state that they base their view on EGW or on personal taste/experience or ( refrain from making scientific claims that are not supported by the evidence, I have zero quarrel with them.

[ClubV12]

My opinion, and the freedom to express it on this thread stands.

"There is a great work to be done in bringing the principles of health reform to the notice of the people. Public meetings should be held to introduce the subject, and schools should be held in which those who are interested can be told more particularly about our health foods and how a wholesome, nourishing, appetizing diet can be provided without the use of meat, tea, or coffee. {PC 4.4}

The Paulson Collection of Ellen G. White Letters. Leaves-Of-Autumn Books, 1985; 2002, S. 4"

Right now, we are having a "public meeting" on this issue to introduce the subject. No doubt that offends many, I can't help that, the testimony stands.

Bravus, I've made no scientific claims, my position remains the same, Ellen White is inspired on the subject, it's that simple. I understand not all agree with that. I appreciate your position on it Bravus.

[ClubV12]

"God has given us the fruits and grains of the earth for food, that [bEGIN P.19] we might have unfevered blood, calm nerves, and clear minds. The stimulating diet and drink of this day are not conducive to the best state of health. Tea, coffee, and tobacco are all stimulating, and contain poisons. They are not only unnecessary, but harmful, and should be discarded if we would add to knowledge, temperance. We should live by "every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." It is for us to "search the scriptures," and bring our habits into harmony with the instruction of the Bible. We are admonished, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." {PCP 18.2}

Peter's Counsel to Parents. Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1981; 2002, S. 18

[shelly]

True. You can continue being your own worse enemy by being abrasive in your commentary. When people are responding to your tone rather than your words any helpful information you may be able to give is lost. Many individuals just can't grasp that. But I ask you, what good is being "right" if the way you deliver the "truth" makes it impossible for anyone to hear what you are saying? I personally don't care what you drink or don't drink. What I am most concerned about that you can't see twisting words and making false accusations about individuals you disagree with is not a way to prove a point. It also makes your point of view seem less credible. The truth can always stand on its own.