The timing of the judgment of the living

[skyblue888]

Pastor Chick, I get the definite impression from you that you believe that the judgment of the living has already begun. Am I right and if so how did you arrive at this conclusion?

sky

_______________________________________

sky,

I found a summary online at the following URL:

http://csda-adventistchurch.to/judgment_of_living.html

Pastor Chick

__________________________________________

Brother Chick, I took a look at the link re: The Judgment of the Living and I did not see anything that would even remotely suggest that it has begun, let alone in 1988!

Several years ago, I have learned from the Scriptures and from the Testimonies that the judgment concerning the living cannot and will not commence until the mission of the Gospel is completed. I know this from studying the parables of The Wedding Garment and of The Net.

The casting of the net is the preaching of the Gospel. This gathers both good and evil into the church, into the loud cry church, that is. And "When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the judgment will accomplish the work of separation." Christ's Object Lessons, p.122.

The judgment mentioned here can only be that of the living and therefore will not begin until the mission of the Gospel is completed.

During the loud cry "The wheat and the tares are to grow together until the harvest. The good and the bad fish are together drawn ashore for a final separation." Ibid, 123.

"When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed." Ibid,123.

These statements make it crystal clear that the judgment of the living takes place at the end of the loud cry.

And this is confirmed by the parable of the Wedding Garment.

At the end of the third call of the parable, that is, at the end of the loud cry, the king comes into the room to examine the guests. (Matt.22:11) This is the investigative judgment of the living proper, at the time of great final test, moments prior to the close of probation.

"By the king's examination of the guests at the feast is represented a work of judgment." Christ's Object Lessons, p.310.

The king does not examine the guests until after the third call when the mission of the Gospel is completed. This, of course, is the investigative judgment of the living.

After 1844 the church fell into the Laodicean condition. The first call of the parable took place between 1888 and 1903. We all know that this call was rejected, as the parable predicted. This is confirmed by the Testimonies in Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.234,235 and Testimonies to Ministers, p.467.

The second call of the parable is the same message proclaimed again in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God. It is the message of the righteousness of Christ brought into the life of all who come to God trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. These understand that unless they make it their lifebusiness to look to Jesus and accept His merits, which it is their privilege to claim, they cannot be saved.(T.M.93) They understand that this is their only hope to have Christ's righteousness brought into their lives and His righteousness accomplishes everything since it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. (T.M.92; F.W.65,66,27) Thus being joined to the Head, they are actuated by the Head and God is finally able to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. (T.M.300)

But when the second call is given, in latter rain power, again the light is resisted, followed by a great persecution and the bearers of the message and their converts are forced out of the churches they love and they turn to the Gentiles, that is, to all the world, and the message swells into a loud cry (third call of the parable) and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the king comes into the room to examine the guests. This is the timing for the investigative judgment of the living, not before.

So, brother Chick, to claim that the Lord has shown you that the judgment of the living began in 1988 is simply contrary to Scriptures and what is revealed in the Testimonies.

The judgment of the living will take place when the mission of the Gospel is completed at the time of the great final test and it will be the work of a moment. Only those who pass its scrutiny will receive the final seal and these will be ready to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

Back to you.

sky

[miz3]

Sky,

Don't SDA believe this judgment of the living started in 1844?

[skyblue888]

miz3, I have always understood that it was the investigative judgment of the dead that began in 1844 and it was to be followed by the investigative judgment of the living at the end of the loud cry but the church fell into the Laodicean condition. See G.C.457,458.

Then came the first call of the parable in 1888. It lasted more than a decade. The call was resisted just as the parable predicted it would be.

The judgment of the living cannot and will not take place until after the mission of the Gospel is completed at the end of the third call of the parable which is the end of the loud cry. This both the parables of the net and of the wedding garment clearly show.

When Jesus spoke these parables He was looking down the ages with His eye fixed upon our time beginning Oct.22,1844.

sky

*We are living in the time of the second call of the parable. The parable says that this call will also be resisted but the light will shine and some will accept it and these will be forced out of their churches and they will turn to the world with their message and it will swell into the loud cry and when the mission of the Gospel is completed the great final test coinciding with the judgment of the living will take place. Only those who pass the scrutiny of this final test will receive the final seal and then probation will close.

Back to you. :)

[BobRyan]

Several years ago, I have learned from the Scriptures and from the Testimonies that the judgment concerning the living cannot and will not commence until the mission of the Gospel is completed. I know this from studying the parables of The Wedding Garment and of The Net.

The casting of the net is the preaching of the Gospel. This gathers both good and evil into the church, into the loud cry church, that is. And "When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the judgment will accomplish the work of separation." Christ's Object Lessons, p.122.

The judgment mentioned here can only be that of the living and therefore will not begin until the mission of the Gospel is completed.

During the loud cry "The wheat and the tares are to grow together until the harvest. The good and the bad fish are together drawn ashore for a final separation." Ibid, 123.

"When the work of the gospel is completed, there immediately follows the separation between the good and the evil, and the destiny of each class is forever fixed." Ibid,123.

These statements make it crystal clear that the judgment of the living takes place at the end of the loud cry.

And this is confirmed by the parable of the Wedding Garment.

At the end of the third call of the parable, that is, at the end of the loud cry, the king comes into the room to examine the guests. (Matt.22:11) This is the investigative judgment of the living proper, at the time of great final test, moments prior to the close of probation.

"By the king's examination of the guests at the feast is represented a work of judgment." Christ's Object Lessons, p.310.

The king does not examine the guests until after the third call when the mission of the Gospel is completed. This, of course, is the investigative judgment of the living.

After 1844 the church fell into the Laodicean condition. The first call of the parable took place between 1888 and 1903. We all know that this call was rejected, as the parable predicted. This is confirmed by the Testimonies in Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.234,235 and Testimonies to Ministers, p.467.

The second call of the parable is the same message proclaimed again in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God. It is the message of the righteousness of Christ brought into the life of all who come to God trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. These understand that unless they make it their lifebusiness to look to Jesus and accept His merits, which it is their privilege to claim, they cannot be saved.(T.M.93) They understand that this is their only hope to have Christ's righteousness brought into their lives and His righteousness accomplishes everything since it is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. (T.M.92; F.W.65,66,27) Thus being joined to the Head, they are actuated by the Head and God is finally able to finish the work and cut it short in righteousness in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. (T.M.300)

But when the second call is given, in latter rain power, again the light is resisted, followed by a great persecution and the bearers of the message and their converts are forced out of the churches they love and they turn to the Gentiles, that is, to all the world, and the message swells into a loud cry (third call of the parable) and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the king comes into the room to examine the guests. This is the timing for the investigative judgment of the living, not before.

So, brother Chick, to claim that the Lord has shown you that the judgment of the living began in 1988 is simply contrary to Scriptures and what is revealed in the Testimonies.

The judgment of the living will take place when the mission of the Gospel is completed at the time of the great final test and it will be the work of a moment. Only those who pass its scrutiny will receive the final seal and these will be ready to go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

Back to you.

sky

Impressive!

Well done!

Thanks for sharing that!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Sky,

Don't SDA believe this judgment of the living started in 1844?

Sky is correct - the judgment begins with the dead - starting with Adam and Eve and moves forward to our current generation.

in Christ,

Bob

[miz3]

Sky,

Thank you for that correction.

[skyblue888]

Thanks to both of you!

[Pastor_Chick]

sky,

For the sake of clarification (and if you have already said this, forgive the question), what do you understand "the great final test" to be?

That will help me in analyzing your ideas.

Also, what specifically are you calling "the mission of the gospel"?

Thanks in advance.

[skyblue888]

The "great final test" comes at the close of probation. It is the death decree, not the execution of it, but the decree only. We know, of course, this great final test will be preceded by the buy-and-sell decree.

"So now, a sudden and unlooked-for calamity, something that brings the soul face to face with death, will show whether there is any real faith in the promises of God. It will show whether the soul is sustained by grace. The great final test comes at the close of probation, when it will be too late for the soul's need to be supplied." C.O.L.412.

This can only be the death decree. The execution of that decree (the attempt to execute it on the faithful) will come at the time of the fifth plague.

The mission of the Gospel comprises two phases. The last message of mercy must first be proclaimed to the professed church. In 1888 the message from Heaven was presented to the professed church first and then it was to go to the world. But the message was resisted and thus the loud cry to the world was delayed.

I believe we are now in the time of the second and last call to the professed church. If the message is again resisted and the bearers of the message persecuted and put out of the church, the mission of the Gospel will then go to the world and the message will swell into the loud cry.

When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the foolish and the wise will be put to a test, the great final test. Only those who successfully past this great final test will receive the final seal before they enter into the time of Jacob's trouble.

The great final test coinciding with the judgment of the living will accomplish the final separation and the destiny of each class will be forever fixed, as shown in the parables of the net and of the wedding garment and also of the 10 virgins.

Back to you brother.

sky

[BobRyan]

Apparently judgment crosses over to the living at the Sunday law

Quote:

(5 Testimonies, 526:1 is almost identical).

“The principles necessary for our youth to cultivate

must be kept before them in their daily education,

that when the decree shall go forth requiring

all to worship the beast and his image, they

may make the right decisions, and have strength

to declare, without wavering, their confidence in the

commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, even

at the very time when the law of God is made void by

the religious world . .

“It is no time to be ashamed of our faith. We are

a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. The

whole universe is looking with inexpressible interest

to see the closing work of the great controversy

between Christ and Satan. At such a time as this, just as the great work of judging the living is

to begin, shall we allow unsanctified ambition to

take possession of the heart? What can be of any

worth to us now except to be found loyal and true to

the God of heaven? What is there of any real value in

this world when we are on the very borders of the

eternal world? What education can we give to the

students in our schools that is so necessary as a

knowledge of ‘What saith the Scripture’?”—

5 Testimonies, 526:1.

[Pastor_Chick]

The "great final test" comes at the close of probation. It is the death decree, not the execution of it, but the decree only. We know, of course, this great final test will be preceded by the buy-and-sell decree.

"So now, a sudden and unlooked-for calamity, something that brings the soul face to face with death, will show whether there is any real faith in the promises of God. It will show whether the soul is sustained by grace. The great final test comes at the close of probation, when it will be too late for the soul's need to be supplied." C.O.L.412.

This can only be the death decree. The execution of that decree (the attempt to execute it on the faithful) will come at the time of the fifth plague.

The mission of the Gospel comprises two phases. The last message of mercy must first be proclaimed to the professed church. In 1888 the message from Heaven was presented to the professed church first and then it was to go to the world. But the message was resisted and thus the loud cry to the world was delayed.

I believe we are now in the time of the second and last call to the professed church. If the message is again resisted and the bearers of the message persecuted and put out of the church, the mission of the Gospel will then go to the world and the message will swell into the loud cry.

When the mission of the Gospel is completed, the foolish and the wise will be put to a test, the great final test. Only those who successfully past this great final test will receive the final seal before they enter into the time of Jacob's trouble.

The great final test coinciding with the judgment of the living will accomplish the final separation and the destiny of each class will be forever fixed, as shown in the parables of the net and of the wedding garment and also of the 10 virgins.

Back to you brother.

sky

sky,

That helps a bit, thank you.

Now, because word pictures do not develop quickly in my mind, do you have a chart or graphic that can be embedded here for additional clarity? If not, maybe you could throw something together in MS paint (nothing elaborate). I would like to see it in perspective. Thanks again.

[skyblue888]

Please go to my website www.hidden-treasures.ca

click on the third book, first row, That Which Has Been Will Be,,, at the end of the book there is a chart.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

Please go to my website www.hidden-treasures.ca

click on the third book, first row, That Which Has Been Will Be,,, at the end of the book there is a chart.

sky

Well, I do not have much band width here, but I managed to get your chart.

Now, we have something to analyze.

[skyblue888]

Thank you! I tried to copy and paste it but it would not let me.

Should be Death Decree

Probation Closes

and not Probation Closes

Death Decree.

I don't know why I did not spot this before. Just did!

The death decree comes shortly before general probation closes.

sky

[ClubV12]

Seems to me the death decree is scheduled to take effect on a specific day (we know not when) and it is at midnight (the beginning of that day) that the people of God are "rescued".

Was that by hearing the declaration of the day and hour of His coming or, what? I can't recall the details of what the "rescue" was at that moment (midnight, the start of the day of death).

It's in GC, but I'm not sure where....

[skyblue888]

We do not know the date but we may know the order of events. "The great final test comes at the close of human probation when it will be too late for the soul's need to fe supplied." C.O.L.412.

So it will be at the close of human probation. Both the buy-and-sell decree and the death decree are part of the tests the beast and its image will impose upon Sabbath-keepers. In order to receive the final seal before entering the time of Jacob's trouble one must pass this great final test. So we know that it will happen at the close of human probation when the mission of the Gospel is completed.

As to the execution of the death decree, at least the attempt to execute it upon the people of God, it will come at the time of the fifth plague as shown in the following statement:

"With shouts of triumph, jeering, and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense darkness, (fifth plague; Rev.16:10) deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. Then a rainbow, shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. The angry multitudes (waters upon which Babylon sits; Rev.17:15) are suddenly arrested (drying up of the waters whose symbolic name is Euphrates; Rev.16:12). Their mocking cries die away. The object of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful foreboding they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness... It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength..." G.C.635,636. *parenthesis supplied

sky

Note: The drying up of the River Euphrates is when the angry multitudes are suddenly arrested gazing upon the symbol of God's covenant. It is then that

"The people see that they have been deluded. They accuse one another of having led them to destruction; but all unite in heaping their bitterest condemnation upon the ministers. Unfaithlful pastors have prophesied smooth things... Now, in their despair, these teachers confess before the world their work of deception. The multitudes are filled with fury. 'We are lost!' they cry, 'and you are the cause of our ruin;' and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised fro their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now employed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is strife and bloodshed." G.C.655,656.

This is the sixth plague, the drying up of the river Euphrates, the drying up of support from the waters of Revelation 17:15. It is the slaughter represented by the "angel of death" in Ezekiel 9. This angel of death represents a movement of people, the "angry multitudes," who turn upon the false shepherds.

sky

[skyblue888]

Apparently judgment crosses over to the living at the Sunday law

Quote:

(5 Testimonies, 526:1 is almost identical).

“The principles necessary for our youth to cultivate

must be kept before them in their daily education,

that when the decree shall go forth requiring

all to worship the beast and his image, they

may make the right decisions, and have strength

to declare, without wavering, their confidence in the

commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, even

at the very time when the law of God is made void by the religious world . .

“It is no time to be ashamed of our faith. We are

a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men. The

whole universe is looking with inexpressible interest

to see the closing work of the great controversy

between Christ and Satan. At such a time as this, just as the great work of judging the living is

to begin, shall we allow unsanctified ambition to

take possession of the heart? What can be of any

worth to us now except to be found loyal and true to

the God of heaven? What is there of any real value in

this world when we are on the very borders of the

eternal world? What education can we give to the

students in our schools that is so necessary as a

knowledge of ‘What saith the Scripture’?”—

5 Testimonies, 526:1.

Thanks Bob. Great quotes. If you noticed, in the first one it talks about the law of God being made void. In another statement Mrs. White makes it very clear that the making void of the law of God is when sunday shall be enacted as the day of worship. But the enactment of the Sunday Law is not yet the great final test. It will become the great final test eventually but not right away. The great final test which is the death decree will be the last pressure to be brought to bear upon Sabbath keepers as to make them abandon their faith.

Then this:

"The whole universe is looking with inexpressible interest to see the closing work of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. At such a time as this, just as the great work of judging the living is to begin..."

The judgment of the living does not begin when the Sunday Law is enacted but is about to begin shortly after that. Last day events will be rapid ones. In order for anyone to pass the judgment of the living he must first have the victory over the beast and its image, that is, successfully pass the great final test which comes as the close of human probation.

Remember, the king comes into the room to examine the guests, not at the beginning of the loud cry at the time when the Sunday law is enacted, but when the mission of the Gospel is completed. This event coincides with the great final test which comes shortly before the close of human probation.

Those who pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living will receive the final seal. No one receives the final seal at the time of the passing of the Sunday Law. That won't happen until the great final test. In order to receive the final seal one must pass the great final test at the close of human probation.

Agree?

sky

[Dr. Rich]

How sad it is that people are still following after the writings of dead people who had no clue as to end time events! Why not seek real truth while there is still time to do so by triming off that wick of lies (old ideas of truth)? The judgment for the living will ONLY be for the those who are alive in the last generation. Why? Because only at that time will the real truth be given to the world (gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven, not Paul's gospel) by the 144k who are the first to be sealed by Jesus when He comes like a thief just before the time of trouble. This event is NOT the same as the coming in the clouds at the end of the time of trouble.

[BobRyan]

The judgment of the living does not begin when the Sunday Law is enacted but is about to begin shortly after that. Last day events will be rapid ones. In order for anyone to pass the judgment of the living he must first have the victory over the beast and its image, that is, successfully pass the great final test which comes as the close of human probation.

Remember, the king comes into the room to examine the guests, not at the beginning of the loud cry at the time when the Sunday law is enacted, but when the mission of the Gospel is completed. This event coincides with the great final test which comes shortly before the close of human probation.

Those who pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living will receive the final seal. No one receives the final seal at the time of the passing of the Sunday Law. That won't happen until the great final test. In order to receive the final seal one must pass the great final test at the close of human probation.

Agree?

sky

I agree with a lot of what you are saying - but a few points for clarity may be helpful.

1. You cannot test someone whose probation has closed. All the tests are put there to force the person to choose one way or the other - for God or against. And as the direct result of those tests ( followed by our choices) - our probation closes either for good or for damnation.

2. I agree that in that end-time context for sealing - you cannot be sealed without being tested and cannot pass the test without choosing in favor of God as Christ said in Matt 10.

3. The judgment of a living person cannot complete until that living person has made their final choice.

4. When the first federal Sunday Law is suggested and passes - it probably won't be much different than the State-level-Sunday Laws already passed and which we have already accepted and followed - to the letter in years past without much of a problem so it won't involve much of a choice on our part to continue not buying from a store that is closed on Sunday. However that will be the last sign to leave the large cities.

5. We ourselves will not "face a choice" until the Sunday Law starts to require that we "do something" very different from what the State level Sunday Laws have demanded. At some point we will have to sign something that states that we accept Sunday as a religious holy day or else the test will be in the form of telling us that we cannot do certain activities on Sabbath. (In my opinion it is more likely to start out as the former since the sign is on the hand or the forehead).

The point is that it is only THAT level of Sunday Law that would actually require us to "make a choice".

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

Very good dialog on this Sunday issue, thanks for that, Sky, Bob.

I'm contemplating the meaning of "leaving the large cities". Of course it is rather obvious as it relates to the "large cities", San Fran, D.C., LA, etc. There will be much discussion as to the definition of "leaving" of course. Perhaps the "suburbs" are close or far away "enough", some will determine. Perhaps that is also flirting with disaster, "looking back" on the city if you would!

Following the sequence of events. Leave the large cities (when the National Sunday law is passed), and go to? Small towns? Outside small towns? At SOME point, leaving the small towns for the "country" (defintion of country)? Further, hiding in the mountains! At some point "work" in the cities is now closed? When does that happen? Just thinking through the counsel...

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The judgment of the living does not begin when the Sunday Law is enacted but is about to begin shortly after that. Last day events will be rapid ones. In order for anyone to pass the judgment of the living he must first have the victory over the beast and its image, that is, successfully pass the great final test which comes as the close of human probation.

Remember, the king comes into the room to examine the guests, not at the beginning of the loud cry at the time when the Sunday law is enacted, but when the mission of the Gospel is completed. This event coincides with the great final test which comes shortly before the close of human probation.

Those who pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living will receive the final seal. No one receives the final seal at the time of the passing of the Sunday Law. That won't happen until the great final test. In order to receive the final seal one must pass the great final test at the close of human probation.

Agree?

sky

I agree with a lot of what you are saying - but a few points for clarity may be helpful.

1. You cannot test someone whose probation has closed. All the tests are put there to force the person to choose one way or the other - for God or against. And as the direct result of those tests ( followed by our choices) - our probation closes either for good or for damnation.

2. I agree that in that end-time context for sealing - you cannot be sealed without being tested and cannot pass the test without choosing in favor of God as Christ said in Matt 10.

3. The judgment of a living person cannot complete until that living person has made their final choice.

4. When the first federal Sunday Law is suggested and passes - it probably won't be much different than the State-level-Sunday Laws already passed and which we have already accepted and followed - to the letter in years past without much of a problem so it won't involve much of a choice on our part to continue not buying from a store that is closed on Sunday. However that will be the last sign to leave the large cities.

5. We ourselves will not "face a choice" until the Sunday Law starts to require that we "do something" very different from what the State level Sunday Laws have demanded. At some point we will have to sign something that states that we accept Sunday as a religious holy day or else the test will be in the form of telling us that we cannot do certain activities on Sabbath. (In my opinion it is more likely to start out as the former since the sign is on the hand or the forehead).

The point is that it is only THAT level of Sunday Law that would actually require us to "make a choice".

in Christ,

Bob

I agree.

You said, "You cannot test someone whose probation has closed."

This shows that in order to pass the judgment of the living we must pass all the tests that are brought to bear upon us including the death decree which comes some time before the close of human probation.

Thank your for your helpful clarifications, Bob.

For more on this you may want to take a look at two small booklets titled The Order of Last Day Events from my website. They are at the bottom of the home page.

You can also click on Forum Index, Last Day Events, and you will find the chapters of Book 3 of The Order of Last Day Events. Chapter 8 is The Judgment of the Living.

sky

www.hidden-treasures.ca

[Dr. Rich]

Very good dialog on this Sunday issue, thanks for that, Sky, Bob.

I'm contemplating the meaning of "leaving the large cities". Of course it is rather obvious as it relates to the "large cities", San Fran, D.C., LA, etc. There will be much discussion as to the definition of "leaving" of course. Perhaps the "suburbs" are close or far away "enough", some will determine. Perhaps that is also flirting with disaster, "looking back" on the city if you would!

Following the sequence of events. Leave the large cities (when the National Sunday law is passed), and go to? Small towns? Outside small towns? At SOME point, leaving the small towns for the "country" (defintion of country)? Further, hiding in the mountains! At some point "work" in the cities is now closed? When does that happen? Just thinking through the counsel...

ClubV12, Have you ever heard of a war where the best of the military were taken away or hid out somewhere away from the enemy? Rev. 12:17 has a war with Satan and his kingdoms of the world against those who keep the commandments and hold fast to the testimony (words) of Jesus. What kind of a battle would it be if these hid out and refused to 'fight' by presenting the real truth to the rest of the world?

Rev. 21:8 and 22:15 show us that cowards will be treated the same as those who believe in and practice a lie.

[ClubV12]

When the death decree is passed, the battle is over. Like the christians fleeing Jerusalem in 70 AD, there is a time to fight and a time to recognize the battle is won, or lost, depending on your perspective. The Roman Army pulled back, just long enough for the christians to escape, which they did. Then, the city and the people who remained in it, was utterly destroyed.

There was nothing cowardly about those christians leaving the city about to be destroyed. It would have taken more courage to LEAVE than to STAY! Where you gonna go, to hide in the mountains? Some cold cave, no food, no water? Leave your HOUSE? All your stuff? Your comfortable bed? But wait, the Romans, their pulling back, they are not really going to attack after all! Everything will be fine, here in the city, here in my house, relax, tommorow is another day. Those christians that left were "fanatics" anyway. And then, sudden destruction came upon the city.

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12, the 'war' found in Rev. 12:17 is not faught with guns and bombs. It is a battle over what is truth. It has NOTHING to do with machines of war. It is a battle over your mind and what you believe. If you believe a lie, you will be toast.

[BobRyan]

When the death decree is passed, the battle is over. Like the christians fleeing Jerusalem in 70 AD, there is a time to fight and a time to recognize the battle is won, or lost, depending on your perspective. The Roman Army pulled back, just long enough for the christians to escape, which they did. Then, the city and the people who remained in it, was utterly destroyed.

There was nothing cowardly about those christians leaving the city about to be destroyed. It would have taken more courage to LEAVE than to STAY! Where you gonna go, to hide in the mountains? Some cold cave, no food, no water?

As when Noah enters the ark - all evangelism stopped at that point.

After the close of probation the saints do not evangelize further and the Holy Spirit no longer strives with man - God no longer convicts of sin or draws people to salvation.

Mankind will have made their final choice.

No point in killing the saints to bring in more converts.

ALl that is left is for both the saints and the wicked to reveal their true nature.

The saints living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.

The wicked living without the restraint of the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob