The timing of the judgment of the living

[Light Fox]

Hi Sky,

I haven't really seen any replies to your first post, so I'm going to take it from there. If I've missed something in the last couple of pages, please let me know. I did see a chart posted, but I haven't had opportunity to examine that closely.

Here is what I understand you to be saying:

1. The Judgment of the Living takes place after the loud cry end and probation closes, and is the "work of judgment" referred to as separating the good from the evil at the end of time.

2. Primary sources for this are the parables of the net, the tares, and the wedding garment - and select portions of the EGW commentary on these parables from CoL.

Please let me know if I've misunderstood either point. My reply from this point will be on the supposition that I've accurately understood your ideas.

The problem I am seeing with your presentation is that you assume the only judgment that can be referred to as separating the good from the evil is the judgment of the living. This confuses the two meanings of judgment; one of investigating the charges, and the one of meting out punishment.

We are "Judged" before we are "Judged." This much is very apparent from both the Scriptures and Mrs. White's writings - Christ is not returning to inspect us, but to hand out the judgment that has been pre-determined. How can probation close, and every man be clean or unclean, if it's not even known yet who is clean and unclean?

The separating work of judgment spoken of in both the Scripture and Mrs. Whites writings that you referenced is always the work of destruction and salvation at the return of Christ. Matthew 25:31-46 is another place this same story is told. There is no judgment happening here in the sense of investigation - Christ knows precisely who is who by this time, and is merely meting out the judgment already made.

The chapter of Mrs. White's on the Wedding Garment actually leaves little question on this point. Whereas you've placed the several calls of the King to different times in SDA Church history, she gives no such indication. Instead, she states plainly what they refer to; CoL pages 307-308 are direct on this. The first two calls were to the Jewish church, and the final call was the gospel call to the Gentiles, in which time we are living. It is during that time that the investigative judgment takes place - and so it is.

Nowhere in any of the cited materials does Mrs. White mention the judgment of the living - she speaks of a work of judgment that separates. That is not the judgment of the living; that is the result of the judgment of the living. How can Christ separate what He has not yet judged?

Here is what Mrs. White does say about the judgment of the living:

"The judgment is now passing in the sanctuary above. For many years this work has been in progress. Soon--none know how soon--it will pass to the cases of the living. In the awful presence of God our lives are to come up in review. At this time above all others it behooves every soul to heed the Saviour's admonition, "Watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is." Mark 13:33. "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee." Rev. 3:3." [Maranatha 250]

The Judgment of the Living is not an instantaneous event, any more than the Judgment of the Dead. It appears that what you are focusing on here is the work of judgment in regards to meting out the reward and punishment.

[Dr. Rich]

BobR, Did I miss something in Gen.? Since when did Noah preach or teach anything to anyone? Didn't God tell him ALL were wicked and would be destroyed in the flood--except for Noah and his family?

So now you are saying that God was wrong and that Noah preached? And then YOU make fun of me for my opinion---what gives? Where did you get all of these lies from?

What is this 'probation perid'? Have you not read what happens in regards to Matthew 25:1-13? Where is there any grace with this?

[Jody]

Hi, It doesn't actually say Noah was preaching in Genesis. But in 2 Peter 2:5 he is called "a preacher of righteousness"

[Dr. Rich]

Exactly! and this is one of the big clues that Peter did not write this letter! Peter had long been dead when this letter popped up and went into circulation. There are other clues too but let's not hijack this thread.

Can someone explain why the judgment for the foolish bride's maids was over before they went out looking for more oil?

[BobRyan]

BobR, Did I miss something in Gen.? Since when did Noah preach or teach anything to anyone?

Rich I think this is a part of the New Testament you deleted from your Bible.

Hint1 -- Peter talks about it. 2 Pet 2:5.

Hint2 -- the Bible has 66 books.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

The bible is NOT what Jesus OR Paul called "Scripture"! My question refered to Genesis, not to what the unknown writer of 2Peter wrote!

IF you want to ue the NT for your answer, then go to Matthew 24:38-39 and you will see where JESUS said that those people who drowned in the flood KNEW NOTHING about what was going to happen!

If they didn't know anything, then it is clear that Noah didn't tell them anything. After all, what would he have told them? Perhaps he would have told them "Na na na na, na, only my family will be saved and you all are going to drown!" Come on folks, get with it! Try using some common sense. EGW was totally wrong when she wrote about this in P and P.

[BobRyan]

The bible is NOT what Jesus OR Paul called "Scripture"!

Dreaming again Rich?

[BobRyan]

in 2 Peter 2:5 he (Noah) is called "a preacher of righteousness"

That is correct.

For Christians the Bible has 66 books. (Although some do add the Apocryphal books)

I prefer to follow the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[wayfinder]

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ;

19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

I guess that Noah wasn't the only "preacher of righteousness" to the antediluvians, Christ's spirit went down to their prision and proclaimed righteousness to them while His flesh was in the tomb.

I think not! Peter would not write something like this.

[ClubV12]

The people of the flood didn't know anything in the same way many of the people of today don't know anything about the 2nd coming. Oh, they've heard the rumors, talked about, but for the most part have ignored it. To them, it will come without warning, just as if "they didn't know about it." In spite of a bunch of folks doing their best to TELL them!

If some guy today starts building "Noah's Ark" people are going to ask questions, it's going to get some press, they WILL hear the "rumors". Noah was building for 120 years, you can bet it was the "talk of the town" and all around! Oh yeah, they "knew", they didn't believe.

[Dr. Rich]

Yes Sky, God said that the wicked will not understand so IF you and those others on this thread don't understand I suppose you can count yourselves among the wicked. *Dan. 12:10)

[skyblue888]

"The wise shall understand." Dan.12:10.

"Wherefore, be ye not unwise, but understand

what the will of the Lord is. Be not drunk with

wine which is excess, but be filled with the

Spirit." Eph.5:18.

"Be filled with the Spirit." This is the will of God for you and me. It is "the commandment of the everlasting God for obedience to the faith." Rom.16:24,26. That commandment is a promise to you and it is so immediately if you are resting in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Let us be wise that we may be ready for the judment of the living at the time of the great final test.

sky :)

[Dr. Rich]

Matthew 12:30: "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me, scatters." Hmmm? By who's words have all of the many different denominations been establishied? Answer: Paul!

[Pastor_Chick]

The "wise" do understand. I have noticed that there is a prophetic parable that applies to the "judgment of the living," and here is our interpretation of that parable. More comments on it shall be coming.

If the image below does not load, here is an online source:

http://www.csda-adventistchurch.to/diduknow.html

[skyblue888]

I agree with these statements. They are beautiful. But as far as the members of the CSDA church making bold claims that they are God's chosen ones for the eleventh hour to finish the work I do not believe. If they truly were they would be unassuming.

Even Jesus Christ, who was God's sent, was very unassuming and so were all the prophets. The moment one starts making bold claims, as has been made by the CSDA, we may know that he is a self-sent messenger and soon or later will come to naught.

"If any man thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal.6:3.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

[...]. The moment one starts making bold claims, as has been made by the CSDA, we may know that he is a self-sent messenger and soon or later will come to naught.

"If any man thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal.6:3.

sky

[skyblue888]

What opportunity brother Chick? to declare oneself as the chosen of God?

This is the time to take a humble position. If the Lord sees fit to choose any one of us as His intrument(s), as His vessel(s), we have every reason to be thankful being so honored but we will not announce it. Far from it. If we are presenting the truth in love, the Lord will vindicate us. But the last thing on our mind will be to make any boastful claim.

sky

[Light Fox]

If I'm not mistaken, the opportunity he was taking was to provide a large selection of quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture that constitute what you're intimating are arrogant, boastful, and unhumble claims.

Paul was pretty "boastful" himself, as I recall. He made very bold claims. He was not a self-sent messenger, nor did he come to naught.

I think the point is to judge righteous judgment; not self-imposed ideas of "too bold" or "too earnest." What do the Law and the Testimony say? Is the message true or not? Whether we like how it sounds is aside from the point, and often the cause of rejecting truth. Of course, if you have Scriptures to verify your truism about a bold testimony being evidence of falsehood, I would be interested in reviewing them.

But perhaps that is getting off topic?

[Dr. Rich]

Huh? Paul was too self sent! NO ONE other than Paul himself could verify his authority. If you don't see this, then please clue me in as to why you wrote what you did about Paul. Read Rev, 2:2 because this is all about the false apostle Paul and his side kick Luke.

But back to the topic---the judgment for the living can only take place during the time of trouble because that is when the last generation will be living. This is also when the real truth, the gospel Jesus gave, and not the false gospel of Paul, will be preached around the world. Who do it? The 144k.

[skyblue888]

If I'm not mistaken, the opportunity he was taking was to provide a large selection of quotes from the Spirit of Prophecy and Scripture that constitute what you're intimating are arrogant, boastful, and unhumble claims.

Paul was pretty "boastful" himself, as I recall. He made very bold claims. He was not a self-sent messenger, nor did he come to naught.

I think the point is to judge righteous judgment; not self-imposed ideas of "too bold" or "too earnest." What do the Law and the Testimony say? Is the message true or not? Whether we like how it sounds is aside from the point, and often the cause of rejecting truth. Of course, if you have Scriptures to verify your truism about a bold testimony being evidence of falsehood, I would be interested in reviewing them.

But perhaps that is getting off topic?

Qinael

______________________________________

No, it is not getting off topic.

May be you were thinking of these passages:

"If a man thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal.6:3.

"And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to." 1 Cor.8:2.

"In nothing was I behind the most eminent of the apostles, though I am nothing." 2 Cor.12:11.

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle." 1 Cor.15:9.

"By the grace of God I am what I am." 1 Cor.15:10.

"To me who am less than the least of all the saints this grace was given." Eph.3:8.

Thirty years after his conversion, after having walked with God all these years, he said, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Tim.1:15.

This is the spirit of the Gospel.

"Those who take pains to call attention to their good works, constantly talking of their sinless state and endeavoring to make their religious attainments prominent, are only deceiving their own souls by so doing. A healthy man, who is able to attend to the vocations of life and who goes forth day after day to his labor with buoyant spirits and with a healthy current of blood flowing through his veins, does not call the attention of everyone he meets to his soundness of body. Health and vigor are the natural conditions of his life, and therefore he is scarcely conscious that he is in the enjoyment of so rich a boon.

Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart.

All who come within the sphere of his influence perceive the beauty and fragrance of his Christian life, while he himself is unconscious of it, for it is in harmony with his habits and inclinations. He prays for divine light, and loves to walk in the light. His life is hid with Christ in God; yet he does not boast of this, nor seem conscious of it. God smiles upon the humble and lowly ones who follow closely in the footsteps of the Master. Angels are attracted to them, and love to linger about their path. They may be passed by as unworthy of notice by those who claim exalted attainments and who delight in making prominent their good works, but heavenly angels bend lovingly over them and are as a wall of fire round about them." Sanctified Life, pp.12,13.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

"If any man thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." Gal.6:3.

sky

[skyblue888]

"And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to." 1 Cor.8:2.

"In nothing was I behind the most eminent of the apostles, though I am nothing." 2 Cor.12:11.

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle." 1 Cor.15:9.

"By the grace of God I am what I am." 1 Cor.15:10.

"To me who am less than the least of all the saints this grace was given." Eph.3:8.

Thirty years after his conversion, after having walked with God all these years, he said, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." 1 Tim.1:15.

This is the spirit of the Gospel.

"Those who take pains to call attention to their good works, constantly talking of their sinless state and endeavoring to make their religious attainments prominent, are only deceiving their own souls by so doing. A healthy man, who is able to attend to the vocations of life and who goes forth day after day to his labor with buoyant spirits and with a healthy current of blood flowing through his veins, does not call the attention of everyone he meets to his soundness of body. Health and vigor are the natural conditions of his life, and therefore he is scarcely conscious that he is in the enjoyment of so rich a boon.

Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart.

All who come within the sphere of his influence perceive the beauty and fragrance of his Christian life, while he himself is unconscious of it, for it is in harmony with his habits and inclinations. He prays for divine light, and loves to walk in the light. His life is hid with Christ in God; yet he does not boast of this, nor seem conscious of it. God smiles upon the humble and lowly ones who follow closely in the footsteps of the Master. Angels are attracted to them, and love to linger about their path. They may be passed by as unworthy of notice by those who claim exalted attainments and who delight in making prominent their good works, but heavenly angels bend lovingly over them and are as a wall of fire round about them." Sanctified Life, pp.12,13.

sky

[Gail]

Love that quote :)

[skyblue888]

me too :)

[Pastor_Chick]

What opportunity brother Chick? to declare oneself as the chosen of God?

This is the time to take a humble position. If the Lord sees fit to choose any one of us as His intrument(s), as His vessel(s), we have every reason to be thankful being so honored but we will not announce it. Far from it. If we are presenting the truth in love, the Lord will vindicate us. But the last thing on our mind will be to make any boastful claim.

sky

I prefer not to "play" with words. The Apostle testifies, and I testify.

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom. 1:1)

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom. 11:13)

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, (1 Cor. 1:1)

Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. (1 Cor. 9:1, 2)

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, (2 Cor. 1:1)

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) (Ga. 1:1)

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, (Eph. 1:1)

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, (Col. 1:1)

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; (1 Tim. 1:1)

Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. (1 Tim. 2:7)

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, (2 Tim. 1:1)

Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (2 Tim. 1:11, 12)

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (Titus 1:1)

And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak. (Eph. 6:19, 20)