The "amalgamation" issue - once again

[Haldog]

Of course Ellen meant blacks came from amalgamation. Otherwise she would have corrected misperceptions like she she did other times.

The funny thing is, there was an amalgamation, but not of the kind ellen's god showed her. There was an amalgamation of humans and angels, as written of in Genesis 6 and Jude. Angels who left their natural place and took human women for wives. This is why God chose Noah, he was PERFECT in his generations, not tainted by angel "blood".

The devil takes a sliver of truth and twists it, as demonstrated here by Ellen.

[ClubV12]

"Otherwise she would have corrected misperceptions like she she did other times."

Why should she bother? It is well known that some accusations and assumptions are so "off the wall" they don't even require and do not rise to the level of needing a response. Actually, I find that's true with various posts I see here on the forum from time to time. Something so outlandish and misconstrued it doesn't even deserve the dignity of a response. Something so "off the wall", like evil angels and mankind mixing, I just ignore it.

[Gustave]

In reality Ellen can't be faulted for claiming certain races of men were the result of beast / human sex...

...In Ellen's day this understanding was considered an obvious fact.

...It was considered "science".

...And also was used as erotica.

[ClubV12]

Thats YOUR spin on what you think she said Gustave, not all of us see it that way.

[Gustave]

Thats YOUR spin on what you think she said Gustave, not all of us see it that way.

There is no other way to see it Clubv12...

...Unless a chicken fried steak actually means a blue Ford.

[phkrause]

Again this is a GP, as I've mentioned in another thread about reading SGs III chapter 6, for this thread I'd add chapters 7 and 8. Here's a link: https://egwwritings.org/

When you get there click on the 2nd option on the right, than click on books on the left, than look for Spiritual Gifts vol 3, than on chapters 6,7, and 8 and read them. I'd say very interesting stuff, stuff I'd forgotten from back in the '60s.

[ClubV12]

"The amalgamation of man and beast."

There are certainly two ways to see that statement Gustave. Of man, as well as the beasts of the field, is one way. No doubt you could also include the amalgamation of plant life to that mix as well. Thorns on the roses come to mind in that regard, God didn't put them there!

It doesn't matter WHAT the people or science or medicine thought at the time she wrote this. The statement is clearly NOT an "opinion". This is something divinely revealed to her. Regardless of how you may interpret it, it is an inspired statement and has nothing to do with "popular opinion" of her day.

[Gustave]

"The amalgamation of man and beast."

There are certainly two ways to see that statement Gustave. Of man, as well as the beasts of the field, is one way. No doubt you could also include the amalgamation of plant life to that mix as well. Thorns on the roses come to mind in that regard, God didn't put them there!

It doesn't matter WHAT the people or science or medicine thought at the time she wrote this. The statement is clearly NOT an "opinion". This is something divinely revealed to her. Regardless of how you may interpret it, it is an inspired statement and has nothing to do with "popular opinion" of her day.

There is ONLY one way to interpret Ellen's theological statement...

...And that's within the theoloogical construct of her Adventism.

Ellen White

"But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere"

Signs of the Times, July 5, 1920, page 3

That man bears the image of God and not the likeness of the animals below him, is the foundation stone upon which he must build.

The amalgamation of man AND beast was what defaced the "image of "God"....

...If you need more Adventist quotes to demonstrate ONLY man was created in God's image.

...And that one could kill all the animals they wanted.

...Without defacing "the image of God".

...Just ask.

[ClubV12]

Are you wearing your glasses Gustave???

There are TWO WAYS to read that passage. Of man and also of beast. Not necessarily a mixture OF man and beast. Do you need more Spirit of Prophecy quotes to understand it?

Here's one that makes it plain:

Signs of the Times, July 5, 1920, page 3

That man bears the image of God and not the likeness of the animals below him, is the foundation stone upon which he must build.

See, it's perfectly clear. If you need more, just ask.

1. which defaced the image of God, (man)

2. and caused confusion everywhere (beast)

[Gustave]

Are you wearing your glasses Gustave???

There are TWO WAYS to read that passage. Of man and also of beast. Not necessarily a mixture OF man and beast. Do you need more Spirit of Prophecy quotes to understand it?

Here's one that makes it plain:

Signs of the Times, July 5, 1920, page 3

That man bears the image of God and not the likeness of the animals below him, is the foundation stone upon which he must build.

See, it's perfectly clear. If you need more, just ask.

1. which defaced the image of God, (man)

2. and caused confusion everywhere (beast)

If the animals were NOT created in the image of God....

....How could anything related to animals cause God's image to be defaced?

....That's the part you are missing.

Amalgamation of silver and gold MEANS a mixture of silver and gold.....

....Amalgamation of horse and donkey results in a MULE.

Again, this was common belief in Ellen's day and it wasn't speaking specifically about "Blacks"....

...It was speaking specifically about Hottentots and certain Indian groups.

...Read "Images of Savages" By Gustav Jahoda.

He documents the belief in a most explicit way.

Review and Herald July 31, 1886

The vision speaks of all these |asses as races of men ; yet in the face of this plain declaration, they foolishly assert that the visions teach that some men are not human beings!

But does any one deny the general statement coritained in the extract given above ? They do not. If they did, they could easily be silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of the Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of our own country, &c. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion.

Review and Herald, March 24, 1874

In this country such principles as those embodied in the Roman question, in that unnatural and unholy amalgamation of church and State, are unknown anomalies.

That means a MIXTURE "OF" Church AND State....

...You can find these same statements saturated in the Adventist publications all throughout the time hack. In every case it means a MIXTURE of the two things mentioned.

[ClubV12]

"....How could anything related to animals cause God's image to be defaced?"

The animals didn't cause the image of God to be defaced. What the animals did was "cause confusion everywhere." Like in this thread, those wacky beasts, like mules, are still at it! :)

[BobRyan]

Indeed - There is no "amalgamation of animals defaced the image of God".

A not-so-subtle detail sometimes skimmed over.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In reality Ellen can't be faulted for claiming certain races of men were the result of beast / human sex...

.

True - since she never claimed it.

funny how that works.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

Ok Bob, perhaps you could shed some light on the meaning of the following statements...

...And demonstrate how they are saying what you claim Ellen said?

American Sentinel, Vol 4, No. 14

If these travelers start on the same day in their opposite journeys, as one gains a day, and the other loses a day on the calendar of the stationary

man, then we have three sacred days coming together, which would synchronize with Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. By this process of travel, as first proposed, the seventh becomes the first day of the week, and the first day becomes the seventh!

and this amalgamation of the days seems pointed out by revelation and history.

American Sentinel, Feb 19, 1891

The American Sabbath Union—an offshoot of the National Reform Association—is at

the bottom of the movement, and will leave no means untried to accomplish its

end, and that end is the amalgamation of Church and State—an idea altogether foreign to the Constitution of the United States, which guarantees to all the right to worship according to the dictates of their own consciences

Signs of the Times, Dec 1886

The amalgamation of the people of God with th4 world was the crowning offense of all

Review and Herald, Aug 1, 1854

I ask, Is all this amalgamation of the church and the world to the honor and the glory

of God

Review and Herald July 31, 1866

OBJ. 37. The visions teach, says the objector, that the negro race is not human. We deny it. They do not so teach. Mark the language: " Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men." This view was given ,for the purpose of illustrating the deep corruption and crime into which the race fell, even within a few years after the flood, that signal manifestation of God's wrath against human wickedness. There was amalgamation ; and the effect is still visible in certain " races of men." Mark, those excepting the animals upon whom the effects of this work are visible, are called by the vision, "men.", Now we have ever supposed that anybody that was called a man, was considered a human being. The vision speaks of all these classes as races of men ; yet in the face of this plain declaration, they foolishly assert that the visions teach that some men are not human beings! But does any one deny the general statement coritained in the extract given above ? They do not. If they did, they could easily be silenced by a reference to such cases as the wild Bushmen of Africa, some tribes of the Hottentots, and perhaps the Digger Indians of

our own country, &c. Moreover, naturalists affirm that the line of demarkation between the human and animal races is lost in confusion. It is impossible, as they affirm to tell just where the human ends, and the animal begins Can we suppose that, this was so ordained

of God in the beginning? But we are to take all races and peoples as we find them. And those who manifest sufficient powers of mind to show that they are moral and accountable beings, are of course to be esteemed as objects of regard and philanthropic effort. We are bound to labor, so far as in our power, for the imjrovem'ent of their mental, moral, and physical conditibn.

Whatever race of men we may take, Bushmen, Hottentoti, Patagonians, or any class of people, however low they may apparently be in the scale of humanity, their mental capabilities are in every instance the basis on which we are to work, and by which we determine whether they are subjects of moral government or not.

Now Bob, would you agree with the following definition of DEMARCATION?

–noun

1. the determining and marking off of the boundaries of something.

2. separation by distinct boundaries: line of demarcation.

You realize that the R&H of July 31, 1866 was an apologetic for Ellen's initial statement, right?

...You also realize the apologetic was directed against the objectors charge that negro's were not 'human' according to EGW.

...The article is explicit that Hottentot's were a RACE.

...So don't try to say something to the effect of the human race is the human race!

In EACH and every case where SDA publications use the phrase 'The Amalgamation OF "x" AND 'y'...

...It without exception means "x" was MIXED with 'y'.

...For Pete's sake Bob, the apologetic comes right out and says certain RACES are NOT subject to Moral Govt!

You need to read Ellen's amalgamation teaching again and after that read the apologetic...

...Ellen's husband appeals to "NATURALISTS" who at that time, to the man, stated that.

...Hottentot's were the result of male Orangutan & female Negress sexual union!

...The whole argument James White made was against the charge his wife said Negro's weren't human.

...The rest of the article justified how certain races of 'men' ( like Hottentot's ) were confused.

...Because there was ALSO animal blood mixed in with Adam's human blood via beast sex!

I will post some "naturalist" statements as to this 'teaching' later today....

...So you can have a better perspective on just what James White was saying.

[Gustave]

I was just make aware of the following information related to this topic...

...Case Closed: Ellen meant "sexual union" OF man WITH beast.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/56488321/True-...heory-Revisited

[ClubV12]

Yeah, I read that some time ago, the "True Blood" concept. Eh, hardly "case closed", it's one mans opinion on the matter with a nice rebuttle thrown in. Or, did you miss the rebutle?

[Gustave]

The rebuttle was weightless when compared to the facts...

...That much comes through the document with ease.

...But thank you for your "review".

[phkrause]

The rebuttle was weightless when compared to the facts...

...That much comes through the document with ease.

...But thank you for your "review".

I thought it was pretty interesting, not sure as to how much I accept everything that was written. I did see where Cliff agreed to some of it by saying "it made sense." I will take time to read exactly to what he agreed to. If he thought it had some merit, well than I might also. But I'll have to check with him as to what he meant.

[ClubV12]

It was a fascinating read, I'll give you that. Worthy of further consideration, but I wouldn't say "case closed", the jury is still out. :)

[Gustave]

It was a fascinating read, I'll give you that. Worthy of further consideration, but I wouldn't say "case closed", the jury is still out.

Fair enough, I can accept that....

...Good show ClubV12.