What is a TRUE "Protestant"? and who are they today?

[Pastor_Chick]

What is a TRUE "Protestant"?

Who are the "true Protestants" in our day?

These questions should elicit some interesting ideas. My goal is to bring forth the truth and make it public.

I look forward to the dialogue. Thank you.

[BarbaraLynn]

What is a TRUE "Protestant"?

Who are the "true Protestants" in our day?

These questions should elicit some interesting ideas. My goal is to bring forth the truth and make it public.

I look forward to the dialogue. Thank you.

Pastor Chick,

A true protestant is one that protests the following:

1. The intrusion of the civil magistrate into matters of faith

2. The arbitrary authority of the church

Anyone who protests the civil government's involvement in matters of religious conviction, as well as any authority that a church exercises that is not based upon the Word of God, is a TRUE protestant.

[skyblue888]

I say "Amen" to that.

Jesus was a true protestant and so were the Reformers.

A.T. Jones was a true protestant for not only did he protest against the intrusion of the civil magistrate into matters of faith he also protested against the arbitrary authority of the church (SDA church) in his "An Appeal for Evangelical Christianity" which can be read here in the section What Seventh-day Adventists Believe.

sky

[miz3]

Every person must be convicted of sin before they will call upon the mercy of God. People who are "convicted," are also aware of their "guilt," and the have a "knowing" of their specific sins and defects. They are burdened by the guilt of sin, being held in bondage to sin's law of death. They seek God's forgiveness for their sin and a cleansing from it. The result is a connection with Christ -- the "victory" which is the experience of the "life of Christ" "formed within" (the new birth) whereby "the sinner" now has the "power of God unto salvation" and can resist every temptation to sin and is transformed to become "a saint.

1. Pastor chick using your quote above, who decides whether or not a person has been "convicted" or not? Who decides whether a person has overcome all known sin?

2. How do we actually know they have "overcome" all "known sin"?

3. Does God tell you DIRECTLY who has and who has not "overcome" all known sin?

4. How many members are currently in the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church worldwide?

5. Is the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church commissioned by God to spread the Three Angels Message or to be the haven where the 144,000 are to abide?

6. Have your members of the Creation Seventh Day Adventist Church ever seen you carried off in "vision"? Or do you receive your "visions" without any witnesses?

[Light Fox]

Miz, please go start a thread instead of trying to derail the threads of others. Thanks.

[miz3]

Qinael,

Do you believe Pastor chick is a prophet like Ellen White?

Are you a member the Creation SDA Church?

Sounds like you are?

[Parade Orange]

Originally Posted By: Pastor_Chick

What is a TRUE "Protestant"?

Who are the "true Protestants" in our day?

These questions should elicit some interesting ideas. My goal is to bring forth the truth and make it public.

I look forward to the dialogue. Thank you.

Pastor Chick,

A true protestant is one that protests the following:

1. The intrusion of the civil magistrate into matters of faith

2. The arbitrary authority of the church

Anyone who protests the civil government's involvement in matters of religious conviction, as well as any authority that a church exercises that is not based upon the Word of God, is a TRUE protestant.

I dont know how many true proestants therevare in the SDA church but they wont apply the same understanding or zeal or convictions to GAY MARRIAGE!

Many Gays do not believe or trust christian theology or it to be forced down their throats

and there are gay christians that have a different understanding of the same scriptures

like most churches do have different interpretations of the same scriptures hence the thousands of christian churches

im only bringimg this up cause TRUE separation of church and state in practice doesnt force my religion on u!

and to be really christian about it would mean i disagree with your convictions and beliefs but will FIGHT to uphold your rights in believing and living them out in our U.S. of A.

why that concept is lost on SDA's ?

[Light Fox]

Well, while I agree with a lot of your principles there (i.e. upholding the rights of others, even if you disagree with their beliefs), I think gay marriage is a bit of an odd application of it. Marriage is a religious institution, like baptism or communion. Having the State marry homosexuals would be, in my understanding, "the intrusion of the civil magistrate into matters of faith."

Of course, I don't believe the state should be performing marriages in any capacity because of that, homosexual or otherwise. But that's getting a bit off topic perhaps.

I really do think you've hit an important part of being a Protestant, however - not just protesting violations of your own rights, or the civil magistrate / arbitrary authority of the church as it affects you, but also making sure to protect those rights for others as well.

[phkrause]

Miz, please go start a thread instead of trying to derail the threads of others. Thanks.

I agree with you on this.

But I agree with miz3, only with a few of the comments that are on point and not derailing.

I disagree with pastor_chick. If I'm not mistaken Jesus tells us to come as we are not when we are without sin or perfect. At least that's what I take from the OP.

[Parade Orange]

QINAEL

hello!

its also a state institution recognixed by the government and civil laws and judicial

u need the GOVERNMENT to grant u divorce dont u!'

its a state thing fer sure

not nec. the church

even though JESUS HIMSELF said WHAT GOD PUT TOGETHER let no man divide!

but anyhoo dont tell all the thousands of Adventists that who go to DIVORCE COURT!

many non christians have a church ceremony who never go to church

and most are married by ministers even in backyards and beaches like my cousins and brother who NEVER open their BIBLE

its about a union that is recognized by the state

and some churches are figuring that out

not cause they are smarter or wiser about CHURCH N STATE

but cause they recognize gays as citizens and human

its not fun to explaining GRACE to christians!

[CoAspen]

Prot·es·tant

n.

1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.

Further Explanation

Is someone trying to make up their own definition? Seems really quite simple to understand, unless one is trying to twist it into their own definition!

[Haldog]

Why does it matter? Declaring oneself a Protestant is contrasting your spiritual beliefs with that of the Catholc church, using Catholicism as a measuring stick. I believe it is so much more useful to associate myself with Christ and use His life and works as a measuring stick. Christian works for me.

[miz3]

Why does it matter? Declaring oneself a Protestant is contrasting your spiritual beliefs with that of the Catholc church, using Catholicism as a measuring stick. I believe it is so much more useful to associate myself with Christ and use His life and works as a measuring stick. Christian works for me.

Well said!

Pastorchick is trying to get legitimacy by raising these topics so that SDA won't think he is a kook.

He wants us to accept his orthodoxy as being part of the mainstream Protestant family, just like SDA are. In doing this he hopes to avoid coming off as some "David Koresh" type who manipulates people.

I have seen many like pastorchick and they all exhibit the same characteristics. This why he and his followers want me shut up on this website.

[Light Fox]

Just.... wow.

Re: the topic:

"The principles contained in this celebrated Protest ... constitute the very essence of Protestantism. Now this Protest opposes two abuses of man in matters of faith: the first is the intrusion of the civil magistrate, and the second the arbitrary authority of the church. Instead of these abuses, Protestantism sets the power of conscience above the magistrate, and the authority of the word of God above the visible church. In the first place, it rejects the civil power in divine things, and says with the prophets and apostles, ‘We must obey God rather than man.’ In presence of the crown of Charles the Fifth, it uplifts the crown of Jesus Christ. But it goes farther: it lays down the principle that all human teaching should be subordinate to the oracles of God.”—Ibid., b. 13, ch. 6. The protesters had moreover affirmed their right to utter freely their convictions of truth. They would not only believe and obey, but teach what the word of God presents, and they denied the right of priest or magistrate to interfere. The Protest of Spires was a solemn witness against religious intolerance, and an assertion of the right of all men to worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences." [Great Controversy 203]

I tend to trust Inspiration over Wikipedia.

[BarbaraLynn]

Amen!

Thank you for the quote, Qinael.

[Tom Wetmore]

Prot·es·tant

n.

1. A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.

Further Explanation

Is someone trying to make up their own definition? Seems really quite simple to understand, unless one is trying to twist it into their own definition!

Redefining words with secret or special meanings and/or making up words like a special cod are aspects of either cultish or schizophrenic disorders...

[Sonny]

One who agrees with Luther. The following is taken from "Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians"

"To reject the grace of God is a common sin, of which everybody is guilty who sees any righteousness in himself or in his deeds. And the Pope is the sole author of this iniquity. Not content to spoil the Gospel of Christ, he has filled the world with his cursed traditions, e.g., his bulls and indulgences."

Those who intend to obtain righteousness by their own efforts do not say in so many words: "I am God; I am Christ." But it amounts to that. They usurp the divinity and office of Christ. The effect is the same as if they said, "I am Christ; I am a Savior. I save myself and others." This is the impression the monks give out. The Pope is the Antichrist, because he is against Christ, because he takes liberties with the things of God, because he lords it over the temple of God. I cannot tell you in words how criminal it is to seek righteousness before God without faith in Christ, by the works of the Law. It is the abomination standing in the holy place. It deposes the Creator and deifies the creature.

The Apostle's attack upon the false apostles was not unjustified. Neither are our attacks upon the papacy. When we call the Pope the Antichrist and his minions an evil brood, we do not slander them. We merely judge them by the touchstone of God's Word recorded in the first chapter of this Epistle: "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

[miz3]

Qinael,

The Protestant Reformation was not about civil authority being an oppression to Christians. The Protestant Reformation was about Roman Catholic Church Authority (Pope) over not only Religious life but over the civil authority as well.

The flaw in your assertion is that you are making the civil authority as an independent entity oppressing the people in their worship of God. That is not what the Protestant Reformation was about. The Protesters during the Reformation were not against an oppressive civil government, they were against an oppressive Papacy!

You are trying to add the civil authority into the discussion in order to bolster your position as an oppressed entity. The Creation SDA Church and pastor chick are NOT an oppressed entity in the same way as the Protestant Reformation.

First of all, the Roman Papacy held authority over the civil authorities who were themselves Roman Catholics. In the present situation the SDA Church does not hold a congruent sway over the civil authority. The civil authorities are not SDA and they are not under the thumb of the SDA Church as was the case with the Roman Papacy. On this point alone your attempts to demonstrate moral equivalency falls apart completely. Quoting Ellen White and the Bible will not change this fact.

Second, as stated above your view of what the Protestant Reformation was all about is flawed because we are not dealing in either the past or the present with an oppressive civil authority.

Third the messianic complex exhibited by pastor chick and the blind reverence and awe shown by Sheila7 are clear signs of cult kook entities. The refusal to answer simple direct legitimate questions is also another sign of fringe kookiness. The secretive nature of and the code mentioned by Tom is also another clear sign of religious fanaticism and an unhealthy human experience.

As I said before you are trying to legitimize yourselves by engaging on this website seeming to participate in what you hope appears to be legitimate spiritual discussion. Your dishonesty is also another sign of your illegitimate status.

Your anger and hateful attitude toward me is another sign. I have done nothing wrong yet you lash out at me as if I have done you great injustice. All I did was ask you without any ranker some questions and you lash out as if I am attacking you. You have revealed yourself for what you clearly are. That is you are Fanatical Fringe Kooks who are not anywhere near in touch with God and His Truth. You are desperate to gain legitimacy.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Redefining words with secret or special meanings and/or making up words like a special cod[e] are aspects of either cultish or schizophrenic disorders...

Tom,

I would appreciate some clarification. Your application was too generalized for me to grasp.

Thank you in advance,

[Light Fox]

Miz,

You're arguing with a quote from D'aubigne, cited by Ellen G. White in the Great Controversy. That was her (or their) assertion of what Protestantism is, not mine.

I referenced it pretty clearly, so I'm guessing either you don't care if it's Ellen White or not, or you were in such a hurry to throw out some more scoffing that you didn't bother reading the end of the quote.

Either one demonstrates all I need to know about your spirit. You're currently yelling "Secret language! Cult, cult!" at people who quote Ellen White books for definitions. You're hunting people across message boards trying to derail them with long, angry diatribes but saying they are the ones lashing out at you when they ignore you. You put someone through three long posts of questions with no indication of an end, and when they graciously answered all of them, said if you wanted more to open it in another thread or in email. For that, you say they "refuse your questions."

You are a scoffer, a forum troll, and a hypocrite. Do not expect any more responses from me. I expect you will not be satisfied without the last word, therefore, take it.

[skyblue888]

miz, my advice to you is to take it more relax. When I read your posts I sense tension and aggressiveness toward pastor Chick and others of his associates. This is not good miz. We can agree to disagree without judging, wihout making accusations. If pastor Chick does not respond to your questions right away or does not answer to your satisfaction, or if he does not answer at all, just leave it at that. No use getting impatient with him. What's that going to accomplish? I believe that your attitude toward him and Qinael especially is turning the tables in their favor.

sky

[Pastor_Chick]

Protestantism sets the power of conscience above the magistrate, and the authority of the word of God above the visible church. In the first place, it rejects the civil power in divine things, and says with the prophets and apostles, "We must obey God rather than man." (GC 204)

Persecution always follows a restriction of religious liberty on the part of secular governments. (ST 11-08-99)

Let the principle once be established in the United States that the church may employ or control the power of the state; that religious observances may be enforced by secular laws; in short, that the authority of church and state is to dominate the conscience, and the triumph of Rome in this country is assured. (GC 581)

We are to stand for true Protestant principles; for the policies of the papacy will edge their way into every possible place to proscribe liberty of conscience. (RH 09-09-09)

[miz3]

Qinael,

My words are in perfect line with Ellen White's statement. You did not read my post very carefully or you are the one who purposefully ignores the clear Truth.

When Ellen White used the phrase "the first is the intrusion of the civil magistrate," she was not talking about the American magistrate system. Ellen White was SPECIFICALLY talking about a civil system dominated by the Roman Church. Today in America the SDA Church does not dominate the civil system. Surely even you can see the difference. It is a huge difference that makes your argument void!

You are taking Ellen White and misapplying her words to suit your own UNSUBSTANTIATED ideas and to demonstrate that you are a "persecuted" people. You are not persecuted in any way shape or form. You are twisting God's Servant Ellen White in order to suit your cultish fancies.

In doing this injustice to God's Servant you blaspheme the Word of God.

NO TROLLING! NO HATE! NO LASHING OUT! NO HYPOCRISY!

JUST FACT!

[CoAspen]

Well, blow me down!!! I do believe we have an agreement on this matter!!

[Pastor_Chick]

The tares are permitted to grow among the wheat, to have all the advantage of sun and shower; but in the time of the harvest, "shall ye return, and discern between him that serveth God, and him that serveth him not;" for then every soul will be revealed in his true character. The tares will be bound into bundles to be burned, the wheat gathered into the heavenly garner. (RH 01-10-93)

Here we see that the church--the Lord's sanctuary--was the first to feel the stroke of the wrath of God. The ancient men, those to whom God had given great light and who had stood as guardians of the spiritual interests of the people, had betrayed their trust. They had taken the position that we need not look for miracles and the marked manifestation of God's power as in former days. Times have changed. These words strengthen their unbelief, and they say: The Lord will not do good, neither will He do evil. He is too merciful to visit His people in judgment. (5T 211)

And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me. (Eze. 9:11)