The shaking in Adventism

[Sonny]

One day, Ellen G. White asked her angel, “What will be the shaking? What will bring about the shaking in this church?”

The angel said to Ellen G. White, “It will be the straight testimony of the Laodicean Message.”

Do you know what the Laodicean message is? Revelation 3:17-18:

You say, “I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.” But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

“Buy from Me white raiment.” The word “buy” means “exchange”; it means giving up your self-righteousness in exchange for Christ’s righteousness. If you don’t believe me, please look at Philippians 3:9, where Paul gave up his righteousness in exchange for the righteousness of Christ which comes by faith. Philippians 3:8-9:

What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

After Ellen G. White makes that statement, she made a statement to the ministers. I have taken that statement and put in my Bible. I want to read it to you. I put it there not for you but for me because it’s for ministers. It’s found in Testimonies to Ministers, pages 64-65. But this truth applies to you, also. Regarding the shaking, she says this is what will cause the shaking, the presentation of Christ our Righteousness, and I believe it’s already begun:

“They [i.e., these ministers, who are self-righteous, who are depending on their righteousness, or even on what God does in them] are not willing to be deprived of the garments of their own self-righteousness, they are not willing to exchange [that’s what the word “buy” means] their own righteousness, which is unrighteousness, for the righteousness of Christ, which is pure, unadulterated [no mixture] truth.” {JS}

[Sonny]

Self-righteousness is not the wedding garment. A failure to follow the clear light of truth is our fearful danger. The message to the Laodicean church reveals our condition as a people. [RH 12-15-1904]

[miz3]

Well said Sonny!

[skyblue888]

"The message given by A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner is the message of God to the Laodicean church." E.G. White, Letter S-24, 1892.

If we desire to benefit from this message, it is imperative that we receive it just as God gave it. The following is taken from the lectures brother Jones gave at the 1893 General Conference. It is a repeat of what he said in 1888 except that this time it was presented with added power and glory. May God be our Teacher that we may come to the true understanding of this message is my prayer today! sky

"Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." John 9:41. When Jesus tells you and me we are blind, (Rev.3:17) the thing for us to do is to say, "Lord, we are blind." He told those folks they were blind, and they were blind; but they said it was not so. It was so. Well, then, brethren, the thing for us to do is to come square up to that Laodicean message, and say that every word He says is so! When He says you and I are wretched, tell him, "It is so, I am wretched; miserable, it is so, I am miserable; poor, it is so; I am poor, a perfect beggar, I shall never be anything else in the world; blind, I am blind, and shall never be anything else; naked, that is so; and I do not know it; that is so too. I do not know it at all, as I ought to know it." (1 Cor.8:2)

And then I will say to Him every day and every hour, "Lord, that is all so; but, oh, instead of my wretchedness, give me Thine own satisfaction; instead of my misery, give me Thine own comfort; instead of my poverty, supply all Thine own riches; instead of my blindness, be Thou my sight; instead of my nakedness, oh do Thou clothe me with Thine own righteousness; and what I know not, Lord, teach Thou me."

Brethren, when we come with one heart and one mind to that place, we shall have no difficulty at all in repenting. It will not be difficult to repent, and there will be no lack of repentance. The difficulty about our not being able to repent is that we have not confessed that what the Lord has told us is the truth." A.T. Jones, 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.186, 187

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[skyblue888]

The next day, brother Jones addressed the delegates saying, "Some have said they cannot see how a man can acknowledge himself to be wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, and don't know it, and at the same time be rejoicing in the Lord." 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p. 178. "Well," said he, "I would like to know how any one else can! I would like to know how a man is going to rejoice in the Lord when he thinks he is all right himself. Can you tell? I can't imagnine. Why, brethren, the Lord does not save us because we are so good but because He is so good. Do not forget that." Ibid, 178.

"There is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18. Brother Jones went on saying, "Every moment that I do not see and confess that I am blind, and have not Him as my sight, I am in sin; He says so. 'Now you say you see; therefore your sin remains.' And every moment that I do not see and confess my nakedness and depend only and absolutely upon His merits and righteousness to clothe me, why so certainly I am ruined, utterly ruined, and every moment that I begin to say, 'Now I know so much,' no, I do not know that at all. Well, then, the thing that I am to do is to say, 'Lord, I do not know it; I depend upon You to teach me everything, even to teach me that I am wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, and that I need all these things. And when I tell Him all that, He will give all I need. He will do it. That is our situation." Ibid, 187.

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[skyblue888]

And now about that thought last night--some thought that I was going entirely too far. They could say, it is well enough when He says, 'You are wretched,' I say I am wretched. When He says, 'You are poor,' I say I am poor. When He says, 'You are blind,' I say I am blind. When He says, 'You are naked,' I say, I am naked. And when He says, 'You don't know it,' then I am to say, "I know it!'? No, no. When He says, 'You don't know it,' I am to say, 'I don't know it.' Do not go to putting constructions upon His way. When I say I am wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, and on top of it He says that I don't know it, I say, "Lord, I dont know it.'

That brings us right to the text we started with that night,--'If any man thinks he knows anything, he does not know anything yet as he ought to know.' 1 Cor.8:2. I do not know yet, as long as I have been acknowledging that thing, I know not how wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked I am. Just as certainly as we take that Laodicean message as He speaks it, we shall receive all He has in it for us. Then brethren, that is what it is intended for. That is just what the Laodicean message is intended to do. Let it do its own work in His own way." Ibid, 178,179.

"Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." The Great Controversy, p.471.

"Are you in Christ?" This question was put to the delegates the very same day. In imagination, think of yourself as one of the delegates at that Conference in 1893. You are absolutely stunned to hear the speaker, A.T. Jones, who then answers by quoting, "Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners."

To make things even more puzzling, you realize he is quoting from the Spirit of Prophecy, Testimony 31, p.44. The brethren were skeptical. They could not even submit to the Spirit of Prophecy. They said, "We cannot see if we are in Christ, we are to acknowledge ourselves helpless, undone sinners. We thought if we were in Christ we could thank the Lord that we were good, holy and righteous, and all that." 1893 G.C. Bulletin, p.178.

"Why, no," said brother Jones. "Christ is. When you are in Christ, He is perfect, He is righteous, He is holy and never errs, and His holiness is imputed to you--is given to you. His faithfulness, His perfection is yours, but you are not that." Ibid, 178.

The brethren rejected the Laodicean Message because it was too humiliating to their dignity! Here is the record:

"I saw that you willfully rejected what you knew to be truth just because it was too humiliating to your dignity. I also saw that if you had accepted the Laodicean message, we would have been in the Kingdom two years from that date." E.G. White, Melbourne, Australia, May 7, 1892.

The brethren rejected the "heavenly illumination" (1 S.M.130) just because it was too humiliating to their dignity. A few years before 1888, this testimony had been sent to the church:

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the Covenant of grace but we have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them." Ellen White, Faith and Works, p.36.

Two years after 1888, she wrote:

"Discussions may be entered into by mortals strenuously advocating creature merit, and each man strving for the supremacy, but they simply do not know that all the time, in principle and character, they are misrepresenting the truth as it is in Jesus. They are in a fog of bewilderment. They need the divine love of God which is represented by gold tried in the fire; they need the white raiment of Christ's pure character and they need the heavenly eyesalve that they might discern with astonishment the utter worthlessness of creature merit to earn the wages of eternal life." Faith and Works, p.23.

"The proud heart strives to earn his salvation." D.A.300.

However, "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory... Living faith enables its possessor to lay hold of the merits of Christ, enables him to derive great comfort and satisfaction from the plan of redemption." 1 S.M.364

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[Gustave]

Both A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner were about the most militant and outspoken anti-Trinitarian members the SDA Church had....

...And Ellen White said those two guys "had the message of God" to give "to Christians"?

...How does this work?

[ClubV12]

I don't look to the man or womans character who is delivering the message, I look at the message itself. Not all "men of God" were perfect in character, we see that a lot in the bible.

[Musicman1228]

Most Adventists believe that they have the truth sent from God and nothing will ever change it. Anyone that says that new light will never conflict with light previously given has not read the message to Leodicea thoroughly.

If we (SDA's) currently have all the truth we need for salvation THEN NO NEW LIGHT COULD CAUSE A SHAKING, because there would be no conflict. Therefore, it is logical to state that the shaking when it comes will be because the light that is revealed to the church is completely NEW, and unrelated to anything that is currently held to be true.

Some will look at the New light (the Midnight Cry) and say that nothing will change their love for what they already have. They will say that God would never be so cruel as to give new information that conflicted with what they already believe to be true, so this new information must surely not be from God. These will be the 5 Foolish Bridesmaids.

Others will look at this New light and say to those who bring it "Prove it", and they will-directly from the words and testimony of Jesus Christ and from prophecy. These will be the 5 Wise Bridesmaids.

[karl]

The issue in the shaking will be the same as it has always been in the great controversy. It is all about self vs Christ - about doing things my way versus God's way. For years we have heard the various winds of doctrine and they always attack the same thing - God's way.

"We can't do it." "It's impossible." "God did it so we don't have to."

And other permutations.

The Bible is quite clear that with man it IS impossible. The Bible is also quite clear that WITH God, ALL things are possible.

God knows our weakness and He invites us to be yoked up with Him in His strength so that we CAN live in God's way. Work out your own salvation for it is God that worketh in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.

The ones who convince themselves that God's way is impossible or unnecessary for humanity to follow, will be shaken out. There can be no excuse for sin.

[Gustave]

I don't look to the man or womans character who is delivering the message, I look at the message itself. Not all "men of God" were perfect in character, we see that a lot in the bible.

Where in Scripture do you see an individual aside from a Jew or a Christian...

...Initiating and delivering a doctrinal message for Jew's or Christian's?

...I would like you to point that out for me.

[Sonny]

The shaking is caused because the self-righteous are in need of nothing! When exposed they leave.

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

[olger]

Let it come. Both ditches will be cleaned out.

[Sonny]

Let it come. Both ditches will be cleaned out.

Actually the shaking will cause the ditch to be filled up!

[karl]

The shaking is caused because the self-righteous are in need of nothing! When exposed they leave.

[Sonny]

Many Adventists have been bombarded so much with "not one thread of human devising" that they believe "cooperation" is equivalent to "devising."

Adventist have no assurance. They feel as if they must win heaven by their law keeping.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: karl

Many Adventists have been bombarded so much with "not one thread of human devising" that they believe "cooperation" is equivalent to "devising."

Adventist have no assurance. They feel as if they must win heaven by their law keeping.

It is prudent to fear, as did Paul, that it is possible to fall away. Even if we have been ministers of the Gospel, it is possible to fall. There is no ironclad, "I've got it made" short of heaven. Let him that standeth take heed lest he fall.

[ClubV12]

"They feel as if they must win heaven by their law keeping."

Don't know where that comes from, doesn't sound like the Seventh-day Adventists I know.

The MAJORITY of church members in MY church understand the balance between righteouness by faith and the love that inspires in you, in your christian experience, to follow Jesus in becoming more like Him. By arranging your life in a way that is pleasing not just to you, but to Him. Oh how I delight in thy law.

[Sonny]

It is prudent to fear, as did Paul, that it is possible to fall away.

Yes, fear that you can fall away by rejecting that in Christ you are complete now and in the judgment.

Here's Paul:

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love [agape]; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

"God is love"

[Sonny]

The MAJORITY of church members in MY church understand the balance between righteouness by faith and the love that inspires in you, in your christian experience, to follow Jesus in becoming more like Him. By arranging your life in a way that is pleasing not just to you, but to Him. Oh how I delight in thy law.

What saves is righteousness by faith....Too much emphasis on Christian living, important as it is, leads to legalism and self-righteousness. This is the sin that caused Israel to fall and crucify the Son of God.

[Gail]

Yeah, I don't know if I would make a sweeping generalization like that, either. I've known some very spiritual people among Adventists that I love to chat with!

And things are changing within the church. It's not like it was a generation ago, like in the 80s.

I heard it like this one recently, that if a person is claiming salvation and Christ is not working change and victory in them, then that also qualifies as blindness.

There will be "something" about a Christian that will testify to the world that "they had been with Jesus". And I feel that the closer to His coming the more pronounced that characteristic will be.

[ClubV12]

What parts of the law, or which laws do you feel should be ignored Sonny?

[Sonny]

What parts of the law, or which laws do you feel should be ignored Sonny?

The one you are ignoring:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439]

Tell me, why do you have the things you have? Did you live to build your wealth or did you live to serve others only and live to build their wealth. That's agape!

You see keeping the letter of the law isn't enough. You must keep the Spirit of the law. See Matt chapter 5 if you intend on keeping the law.

In fact Jesus never sinned by even a thought throughout His whole life. He never thought of Himself. In fact, says EGW, "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

I guess that's the laws you can ignore since you aren't living Christ's life, huh?

[Gail]

I guess that's the laws you can ignore since you aren't living Christ's life, huh?

I liked everything in that post up until this point. Please don't judge.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

I guess that's the laws you can ignore since you aren't living Christ's life, huh?

I liked everything in that post up until this point. Please don't judge.

I'm not...it's a fact. I can back it up with both EGW & Bible. All believers are failing to live Christ's life. Now that doesn't mean they aren't reflecting Him at all, but to say we are living Christ's life (one where "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself.") is false.

If we are to enter heaven by law we must live His life. If not, we need the assurance of salvation through an understanding of the love of God as seen in the gospel of Christ. We need to understand God's agape love. That's the only way to really bear fruit.

I hear more about the law then I do Christ and His righteousness. That's not good.