What are the salvational issues?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

We've had a lot of theologic issues on the board here recently. Some, frankly, have me scratching my head because I don't really see the point in the arguments, as I don't think they are salvational issues, much less, things to get fanatical about.

So what are, and what are not, salvational issues, in your opinion?

I will begin: I don't think believing in EGW as a prophetess is a salvational issue.

I don't think abortion is a salvational issue.

Is keeping the Sabbath a salvational issue? Perhaps, perhaps not...I think it depends on where one is in "time." Same thing for belief in the Investigative Judgement.

Jewelry is not a salvational issue.

Even evolution is not a salvational issue...

So, what IS? **ponders**

[skyblue888]

Rudy, I do agree with you that many things that are being discussed or debated are not salvational issues.

The first angel's message is to be repeated. "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment is come."

To fear God is to think for ourselves, not to let other men do our thinking. We are no longer to be chained down to erroneous maxims, theories, and doctrines. In other words,

"We need to have an individual, personal experience. We need to be converted as did the Jews. If you see a little light, you are not to stand back and say, 'I will wait until my brethren have seen it.' If you do, you will go on in darkness. God help us to have a knowledge of the truth, and if you have seen the truth of God, press right to the light and put up the bars behind you. Make not flesh your arm, but have a living experience for yourselves, and then your countenance will shine with the glory of God." F.W.77,78.

And "Give glory to Him."

To give glory is to give credit to whom credit is due. "What have you that you did not receive? Now if you did receive it, why do you glory as though you did not receive it?" 1 Cor.4:7.

"The creation belongs to God. The Lord could, by neglecting man, stop his breath at once. All that he is and all that he has pertain to God. The entire world is God's. Man's houses, his personal acquirements, whatever is valuable or brilliant, is God's own endowment. It is all His gift to be returned back to God in helping cultivate the heart of man. The most splendid offerings may be laid upon the altar of God, and men will praise, exalt, and laud the giver because of his liberality. In what? 'All things come of Thee, and of Thine own have we given Thee.' (1 Chronicles 29:14)." F.W.22,23.

"You cannot have a thought without Christ. You cannot have an inclination to come to Him unless He sets in motion influences and impresses His Spirit upon the human mind. And if there is a man on the face of the earth who has any inclination toward God, it is because of the many influences that are set to work to bear upon his mind and heart. Those influences call for the allegiance to God and an appreciation of the great work that he has done for him. Then don't let us ever say that we can repent of ourselfves and then Christ will pardon. No, indeed. It is the favor of God that pardons. It is the favor of God that leads us by His power to repentance. Therefore, it is all of Jesus Christ, everything of Him, and you want to just give glory to God." F.W.73.

How is that for a start rudy?

sky

[Sonny]

I don't think believing in EGW as a prophetess is a salvational issue.

[Gail]

Salvational issues... hmmm...

I would say that it boils down basically to this:

What will you do with Jesus?

This is primary. After that it is between you and the Lord, but I think it's safe to say that God will bring you along step by step.

[skyblue888]

We just read that if we have seen the truth of God we are to press to the light and put up the bars behind us. That we are not to wait until our brethren have seen it but to have an experience for ourselves.

God has sent us light, precious light, the light of precious truth. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

In other words, "There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ." T.M.97.

And what is salvation? Is it not pardon and peace and light and joy in the Holy Spirit? Certainly. And pardon and peace and light and joy in the Holy Spirit is the kingdom of God within. Luke 17:21; Rom.14:17.

Thus we read, "The merits of a crucified and risen Saviour are the foundation of the Christian's faith." G.C.73.

Do you personally hold these statements as salvation issues?

I sure do.

Salvation issue: Unless we daily come to God just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent, hanging our helpless souls upon the merits of the Saviour, we cannot be saved. See T.M.93.

I have not quoted from the Bible but these statements are paraphrases of many passages of Scriptures which have not been properly understood.

It is written that when the Reformers understood this, and they got it from studying the Scriptures, that "They cast themselves wholly upon the merits of Jesus." G.C.74.

One of them said, "Lord we had devised for ourselves many useless follies, but You have placed Your word before me like a torch, and You have touched my heart, in order that I may hold in abomination all other merits save those of Jesus." G.C.221.

Hanging our helpless souls upon the merits of Jesus as our only hope for time and eternity is, no doubt, a salvational issue. It certainly was for the Reformers.

What do you say?

sky

[ClubV12]

When it comes to understanding doctrinal and salvation issues, I'm thankful we have additional counsel direct from the Lords messenger. In that respect, I'd be very careful about putting aside the wise counsel of Ellen White to help us understand with greater clairity the salvation issues found in the word of God.

Theres a reason God saw fit to raise up a messenger in these last days, just my opinon on the matter.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I tend to agree with Sky and Gail.

At this point in time, I do not think doctrines are necessarily salvational issues. They may become so in the future.

Believing that all EGW writings are inspired is goofy thinking, IMHO, and certainly not a salvational issue. I think she would be shocked if she thought someone would think such a thing. She is a "lesser light"... just as the moon is a lesser light than the sun. But it's the sun that gives warmth and vitamin D. The moonlight does not.

But I don't want to have this thread turn into another one on EGW.

I think relying on the merits of Christ is what's important to salvation.

[Gail]

Satan and his devils know all the doctrine, although they rebel against it and purposely disobey. Knowing truth won't save them.

I think that a repentant (or not) heart could be a salvational issue.

[skyblue888]

Well, Gail, that is true. In a previous post it was said that we cannot repent of ourselves. It is all of Jesus Christ.

How about the Holy Spirit causing us to repent from having trusted in the merits of our "good works" in order to gain the approval of God?

This was a real salvational issue among adventists more than a century ago:

"Discussions may be entered by mortals strenuously advocating creature merit, and each man striving for the supremacy, but they simply do not know that all the time, in principle and character, they are misrepresenting the truth as it is in Jesus. They are in a fog of bewildernment... and they need the heavenly eyesalve that they might discern with astonishment the utter worthlessness of creature merit to earn the wages of eternal life." F.W.23.

This is a very subltle issue. Mrs. White was shown the reason why we had not received the blessings of the covenant of grace.

"We have long desired and tried to obtain these blessings but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them... We must not think that our own grace and merits will save us; the grace of Christ is our only hope of salvation." F.W.36.

This grace is obtained only through faith in the merits of Christ. It is the grace of the Holy Spirit which accomplishes everything, working in us both to will and to do God's pleasure.

"Shall selfishness come into your hearts? And will those who set not before them the pattern, Jesus, extol your merits? You have none except as they come through Jesus Christ." RH Sept.4, 1900; 5 B.C.1128.

sky

[miz3]

rudywoofs,

I think you are raising a vital question (referring to original post).

I believe there is only one answer to this issue.

Each person who has ever lived, who is now living, or who will yet live must face this issue. For each human entity the particular issue could and probably is different. John chapter one and John chapter three talk about God and Jesus Christ being the Light of the World. Without God humans would never ever be even remotely aware of Light and darkness (good and bad, right and wrong, righteousness and unrighteousness, etc.). It is the Light that brings contrast. Without the Light there is no contrast.

What each person does with the Light that comes from God to them will be vital Salvational Issues. It is different for everyone. This is why God will be the only Judge of who is saved and who is lost.

The Holy Spirit is the One who presents to us God's Light using various tools (Scripture, Prophets, Nature, dreams, etc.; the list is endless because God has infinite means). We either let the Light do the work in us that God intends or we REJECT THE LIGHT and are lost.

This why this text is so vital to Salvation:

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Matthew 12:32.

And also this:

"And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

Luke 12:10.

To me these two texts are clear and unambiguous about what is a Salvational Issue.

[ClubV12]

"Believing that all EGW writings are inspired is goofy thinking,.."

If you don't want a thread to turn into an EGW thread, don't post things like "it's goofy thinking" to believe in her.

I think your pretty goofy for not believing!

[Sonny]

I think relying on the merits of Christ is what's important to salvation.

Bingo!

[Sonny]

I think your pretty goofy for not believing!

Please don't go there. Ellen White is not a test of fellowship! End of story.

[miz3]

ClubV12,

Rudywoofs didn't say she didn't believe in Ellen White. She stated a very defensible position concerning Ellen White. Rudywoofs correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me she is saying that Ellen White is a Prophet and is Inspired, but not everything she wrote or stated was INSPIRED!

It is clear that you worship Ellen White! That is in my opinion "goofy thinking"! Until rudywoofs corrects me I think that is what she was saying.

ClubV12, please comment on the topic rudywoofs raised and stop defending your idol worship.

[Gail]

When you think about it, anything can become a salvational issue if a person is confronted with it by the Lord and does not lay it on the altar and surrender it to Christ.

It's usually what we desperately want to hang on to the most

So in that sense the particulars can vary

[skyblue888]

That's true Gail. Very well said.

Any new light that the Lord brings to us is a salvational issue. What happens if we reject that light, if we persist in rejecting that light?

sky

[ClubV12]

"Please don't go there. Ellen White is not a test of fellowship!"

It is indeed a test of fellowship for those who "fight against Ellen White" and know better. To "not believe" is much different than to "seek and destroy" whenever possible. Therefore, when the circumstances are right, it is indeed an issue of salvation! Just as it can be an issue of church membership.

"That is in my opinion "goofy thinking"!"

Please stop the constant abuse of those who DO believe in Ellen White. It is not polite to call someone names (like "goofy) because you don't like their or share their opinion. STOP, and I'm serious miz3, and very offended, at your constant accusations that I "worship" anybody other than the creator. I find that very offensive and am insisting that you stop, or it WILL escalate. Such a statement is tatamount to heresy.

People have been disfellowshipped for "Fighting against Ellen White", I don't have a problem with that in the least. Desmond Ford comes to mind...

[skyblue888]

It is not Ellen White we believe in but in Christ who chose her to be His humble servant. Of course not everything she said or wrote was inspired. She made that very clear.

sky

[ClubV12]

There are some who don't believe in Paul, another of the Lords messenger. When you knowingly reject a prophet, you reject Him who sent the prophet. If it wasn't Ellen White, it would have been someone else, but the end result would not change. Some will believe, some won't and some will do all their power to "fight against" the Lords messenger. It is a serious thing to fight against the Lords messenger's, the bible has stern warnings about that.

[miz3]

Please stop the constant abuse of those who DO believe in Ellen White. It is not polite to call someone names (like "goofy) because you don't like their or share their opinion. STOP, and I'm serious miz3, and very offended, at your constant accusations that I "worship" anybody other than the creator. I find that very offensive and am insisting that you stop, or it WILL escalate. Such a statement is tatamount to heresy.

I am not abusing you. Your words are what convict you of idol worship. You also attacked rudywoofs unnecessarily. That offended me.

Now you also threaten me by stating that "it WILL escalate".

How do you mean to "escalate" against me? Would you care to elaborate!

[Gail]

Miz, I think we can afford to cut ClubV12 some slack. He is newly baptised and probably is very excited about her work. I know I was (and still am ) I don't think I would go as far as to accuse him.

That is what I meant about varying subjects. It's easy to want to focus on concepts that can be written down and compared to between ourselves. But I think the Bible counsels us against that, reason being that the heart, one's own heart, is a far weightier subject to tackle. Study Jesus and see how far a self can go. It's not long before I am humbled and made to feel silly, yet small and inadequate at the same time.

[miz3]

On your say so Gail, I will ease off.

[Gail]

On your say so Gail, I will ease off.

Thank you so much! I would be interested in knowing (for you seem to be one of many years' experience) what practical advice you could offer Rudywoofs. I think that would be valuable for any of us in our dealings with those we encounter who are still trying to figure it all out. After all, Christians in general can be a diverse bunch.

I am assuming that we associate with folk of other belief systems, too, not just those of our own faith.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

"Believing that all EGW writings are inspired is goofy thinking,.."

If you don't want a thread to turn into an EGW thread, don't post things like "it's goofy thinking" to believe in her.

I think your pretty goofy for not believing!

ClubV12, you're reading things into what I wrote that I did not write. I didn't accuse you of anything. Be a mensch, and don't rely on ad hominem attacks. You are certainly free to believe anything you like about whatever, whomever, and wherever you choose. Give others the same courtesy.

miz3 had it correct about my posts..

[ClubV12]

Hey, all you folks that don't like Ellen White and are CONSTANTLY making subtle disparaging remarks and taking "pot shots" at those who do believe, knock it off!

Stop with the "goofy" comments. If you don't believe in her, just say so. I DO believe in her and am not afraid to say so. Of more concern to me though is the subtle and shrouded in mystery attacks on the Lords messenger. At once, appearing to support her and appearing to be a Seventh-day Adventist and then posting something that is far removed from any "normal" SDA doctrine or belief. I find that extra ordinarily cowardly.

While I appreciate Gails "diplomacy" on this issue, this fact remains. The negative comments against Ellen White AND those who express their lack of faith in her far out weigh the postive comments and expressions of those who do. The manner in which those comments are made (name calling, worshiping idols, etc.) aint right. I don't care who you are, newbie, life long SDA, or whatever, some things aint right. And somebdody needs to call you guys on it!

I have always gone out of my way to stand up for the "oppressed", in this case, it just happens to be those who believe in and Ellen White herself.

It's become clear to me when I hear the phrase "the bible and the bible alone" thats CODE for "Ellen White" is a false prophet. I think it's code for: "I'm a Pharisee and have need of nothing and nobody. Look how great I am, I can figure this out all by myself." The ego's in this regard are off the chart!

"I didn't accuse you of anything."

Yes, you did, and I am offended by it.