By Request: Why the Catholic is NOT the Great Whore of Babylon.

[John317]

I will be surprised if Gustave takes the time to read this series from Joe Crews.

sky

You're probably right, but of course Gustave wants us to read what he posts.

I would like to see Gustave show in what way Joe Crews is wrong in what he wrote in that series.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Bible gives us 8 or 9 points of identity of the Great Whore. Can you name them and tell us who fulfills those marks of identity? (Keep in mind that the Great Whore of Babylon will fulfill ALL the points, not only some of them.)

1) The first point is that the woman is seated on the beast.

2) Another point is that this woman who is riding the beast is called "the mother of harlots."

3) Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The time frame of this prophecy is post-resurrection, during the Last Days, the time period Jesus warned about in Matt 24.

Are you saying you believe the Great Whore of Babylon does not exist at this time but will exist after the Second Coming and the resurrection as described in 1 Thess. 4: 13-18?

But even if this is your understanding, nevertheless what are the remaining 5 or 6 marks of identity of the Great Whore of Babylon?

[John317]

John, this issue is more subtle than one might think. You may have missed earlier posts.

At the 1893 General Conference, A.T. Jones repeated the 1888 message with greater power and glory. Please read the following excerpt taken from lecture #14.

"There was a man that lived with Jesus Christ thirty years. When he first began, in the earliest years of his life with Christ, he said, 'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live: yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.' 1 Tim.1:15. And nearly thirty years after this, near the close of his life, he said this: 'This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I' was chief? (Congregation: 'Am chief.') No, was chief. (Congregation: No, 'Am chief.') Oh, no. When he was Saul of Tarsus, persecuting the saints, then he was the chief of sinners. (Congregation: 'No.' 'Am chief.') Amen. Exactly.

'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief.'--when? (Congregation: 'Now.') When he had lived thirty years with Jesus Christ?--Congregation: 'Yes.') Yes. 'I am chief.' That is Christianity. That is the mind of Christ." p.345.

I read on again from the Testimony:

"Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners." p.343.

This is the testimony of those who are overcoming, who are "more than conquerors" in Christ! This is Christianity. This is the mind of Christ.

And now here is another way inspiration looks at the attitude of a true overcomer in Christ:

"Those who take pains to call attention to their good works, constantly talking of their sinless state and endeavoring to make their religious attainments prominent, are only deceiving their own souls by so doing. A healthy man, who is able to attend to the vocations of life and who goes forth day after day to his labor with buoyant spirits and with a healthy current of blood flowing through his veins, does not call the attention of everyone he meets to his soundness of body. Health and vigor are the natural conditions of his life, and therefore he is scarcely conscious that he is in the enjoyment of so rich a boon.

Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart.

All who come within the sphere of his influence perceive the beauty and fragrance of his Christian life, while he himself is unconscious of it, for it is in harmony with his habits and inclinations. He prays for divine light, and loves to walk in the light. His life is hid with Christ in God; yet he does not boast of this, nor seem conscious of it. God smiles upon the humble and lowly ones who follow closely in the footsteps of the Master. Angels are attracted to them, and love to linger about their path. They may be passed by as unworthy of notice by those who claim exalted attainments and who delight in making prominent their good works, but heavenly angels bend lovingly over them and are as a wall of fire round about them." Sanctified Life, pp.12,13.

Back to you.

I agree with all of the above, but I don't see how it contradicts what I was saying earlier about overcoming all known sin in our lives. God certainly wants us and empowers us to overcome all known sin. Ellen White is clear about this as is the Bible as well. Those who are sealed with the seal of God before the second coming of Christ won't be practicing known sin.

What is the difference between the wicked and the saints?

The "wicked" and the "sinners" are destroyed, whereas the "saints" are saved. Rev. 22: 15 says the wicked are outside the city, whereas those who keep God's commandments are inside the city and have a right to enter in and eat of the Tree of life.

Was Paul practicing sin when he wrote his letters to the churches? Was he a slave to sin at that time? Or was Paul overcoming sin and practicing righteousness?

1 Cor. 6: 9-11 shows that Christ's followers were once fornicators, idolaters, murderers, drunkards, thieves, etc., but "such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

If people are washed and justifed and sanctified, they are not at the same time continuing to be the "chief of sinners," are they?

If you are talking about being still a sinner and completely without merit, that is true, of course; but if you are saying that Paul and we ourselves are still continuing day to day to practice sin, then that is false. I know that I am a great sinner, but I am not continuing to practice the same sins that I did for most of my life. I take no credit for ceasing to do those sins, because I know that without Christ, I would be doing those sins today, and probably far worse ones. But Christ has made me into a new creation, and since I am a new creation, I am not at the same time a slave of those sins which used to own me.

I believe that Paul was saying that if he were made to bear the sins that he had committed during his lifetime, he would certainly be the chief of sinners. And I believe the same about myself. If I were to bear all of my sins that God has cleansed me of and forgiven me for, I would be a far greater sinner than Paul was. Paul committed sins in ignorance, which he believed to be right (1 Tim 1: 13), whereas I committed and practiced terrible sins that I was fully aware of, yet went ahead and practiced them year after year after year. Of course there is a sense in which every person is the chief of sinners because God sees us as if we were the only sinner on earth. Each one of us therefore killed Christ by our sins, since He would have come here to die for us if we had been the only person that needed saving.

[skyblue888]

[John317]

The point I was trying to make is that those who overcome never say, "I am not sinning any more," instead of saying that, they, like Paul, will always acknowledge themselves as chiefs of sinners even if they are overcoming as Jesus overcame.

I think you should re-read what I quoted from Jones and from Mrs. White with that in mind.

Yes, we are certainly in agreement about that, sky. If I say, "I am not sinning any more," please shoot me. lol

I really can't imagine anyone in their right mind saying such a thing.

Even after the end of human probation, when people are sealed with the Seal of God & aren't committing any known sins, no one is going to be saying to others or to themselves that they aren't sinning any more.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Are you saying you believe the Great Whore of Babylon does not exist at this time but will exist after the Second Coming and the resurrection as described in 1 Thess. 4: 13-18?

A careful reading of Matt 24, 25 will give us somewhat of an idea of the Last Days events.

In Matt 24, Jesus is telling his listeners that they will be present during a time of great distress and rapid change. He says there will be false messiah's, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and widely distrubuted earthquakes. But that's only the beginning. They will be tortured and executed and universally hated for his sake. There will be many betrayals, more false prophets, increased lawlessness, and cold-heartedness between people. This implies a resurrection, so during this time everyone who has ever lived will hear the good news of the Kingdom of God.

Jerusalem is attacked and overrun, and the temple is occupied by the forces of evil. When the Abomination of Desolation is erected in the Holy Place, then everyone in Judea must flee for their lives. The distress at this time is the greatest ever experienced by humans, and no one can survive except that the duration will be shortened. During this great time of trouble, the sun and moon are darkened, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the Son of Man arrives on clouds in the sky, sending his messengers to gather his chosen ones.

In Matt 25, Jesus continues his narrative about the Last Days. After his arrival, the Son of Man will sit on his throne to judge the nations. He will separate the wicked from those whose names have been entered in the Book of Life. Those who have failed the test will go away to eternal punishment.

In Matt 24, 25, the resurrection takes place, all who are resurrected must endure the Greatest Time of Trouble in order to be tested, and the Son of Man arrives when the sun, moon, stars, and Earth are shaken.

As specified in Daniel, the Four Kingdoms of the Last Days will arise from a great sea of people, post resurrection. Historical Babylon was never much of a kingdom, certainly not a superpower. Babylon of the Last Days, including the city from space it overruns and pollutes, will rule the whole world until it is replaced. The polluted city, aka Babylon or Jerusalem, will continue to exist until the Fourth Beast destroys it.

Thus, the unpolluted city from space is transformed by the worldwide Kingdom of Babylon into a dirty harlot after the resurrection, but before the Son of Man arrives at the End of Days to prevent the complete annihilation of humanity. Judgment Day for all occurs after the Son of Man's return to Earth.

[John317]

So, when does 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 occur?

Compare 1 Cor. 15: 50-54. Isn't the second coming when this mortal will put on immortality?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

The point I was trying to make is that those who overcome never say, "I am not sinning any more," instead of saying that, they, like Paul, will always acknowledge themselves as chiefs of sinners even if they are overcoming as Jesus overcame.

I think you should re-read what I quoted from Jones and from Mrs. White with that in mind.

Yes, we are certainly in agreement about that, sky. If I say, "I am not sinning any more," please shoot me. lol

I really can't imagine anyone in their right mind saying such a thing.

Even after the end of human probation, when people are sealed with the Seal of God & aren't committing any known sins, no one is going to be saying to others or to themselves that they aren't sinning any more.

If I say, "I am not sinning any more," please shoot me. hehehe

Right on!

"Even after the end of human probation, when people are sealed with the Seal of God & aren't committing any known sins, no one is going to be saying to others or to themselves that they aren't sinning any more."

Instead they will have a deep sense of their unworthiness. E.W.272.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

sky, this issue is not one to laugh at. Yes, those with wisdom (insight) who are living in the last generation will be the ones who are born of the Holy Spirit, thereby becoming sanctified and perfect as in righteous. (Rev. 14:5) Problem is, all those who NOW say that they have been born again are liars, mistakenly believing once saved always saved. Why? Because NO LIE will be in the mouths of anyone who really has been sealed by God and born into the family of God.

[Light Fox]

While I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion about willful sin, "bragging," and whether a person is capable of actually knowing whether they are doing willful evil or not (And - unthinkable as some see it - saying as much), I really do think it's off the intended topic of this thread. There seems to be a better suited thread taking shape over on the "Some Issues" forum, for those so inclined.

[John317]

sky, this issue is not one to laugh at.

What sky and I are laughing at is the idea that people would claim to be no longer sinning. That claim will not be made by anyone who is truly sanctified. The Holy Spirit is always gently and lovingly pointing out our sins and shortcomings to us. He will continue to do so until the Second Coming of Christ.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Yes, those with wisdom (insight) who are living in the last generation will be the ones who are born of the Holy Spirit, thereby becoming sanctified and perfect as in righteous. (Rev. 14:5)

I agree that the last generation who live through the Time of Trouble and see Christ return without seeing death will be born of the Holy Spirit and be sanctified, but even then they won't be absolutely perfect as Christ is. But they will have overcome the world of sin as Christ overcame it. How will they overcome? By faith. "And this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our [or your] faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes [has faith] that Jesus is the Son of God" (1 John 5: 4-5).

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Problem is, all those who NOW say that they have been born again are liars,

Isn't this judging people's hearts? Who can truly know this except God alone? In fact, this will be shown in the Investigative Judgment by a close study of people's lives, not simply on the basis of their claims.

But by claiming they are all liars, whether you realize it or not, you are siding with the the Accuser of the Brethren.

Originally Posted By: Dr.Rich

mistakenly believing once saved always saved.

But people who believe that believers in Christ are "born again" don't necessarily believe in "once saved always saved." I certainly don't, and most of the Christians I know don't believe in "once saved always saved." I don't know of any SDAs who believe in it.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Why? Because NO LIE will be in the mouths of anyone who really has been sealed by God and born into the family of God.

You appear to be talking about those mentioned in Rev. 14: 5. They are the 144, 000. It is a mistake to assume that this verse describes every man or woman who has ever been born again. 1 John 1: 8-2:2 makes it clear that born again people are imperfect.

Have you been born into the family of God? When do you expect to be "born from above"?

Check out 1 John 5: 1,2, 4; John 1: 12, 13.

The above verses apply to born again believers, don't they?

[JawgeFromJawja]

sky, this issue is not one to laugh at. Yes, those with wisdom (insight) who are living in the last generation will be the ones who are born of the Holy Spirit, thereby becoming sanctified and perfect as in righteous. (Rev. 14:5) Problem is, all those who NOW say that they have been born again are liars, mistakenly believing once saved always saved. Why? Because NO LIE will be in the mouths of anyone who really has been sealed by God and born into the family of God.

Dear Mercy. Do some Scripture reading:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A gift? You don't work for a gift.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Peace would be impossible without the certain knowledge of salvation.

And not finally, but preemptively,

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Not finally. There are many passages promising assurance of salvation. You are just ignoring them. Sad.[color:#FF0000]

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

sky, this issue is not one to laugh at. Yes, those with wisdom (insight) who are living in the last generation will be the ones who are born of the Holy Spirit, thereby becoming sanctified and perfect as in righteous. (Rev. 14:5) Problem is, all those who NOW say that they have been born again are liars, mistakenly believing once saved always saved. Why? Because NO LIE will be in the mouths of anyone who really has been sealed by God and born into the family of God.

Dear Mercy. Do some Scripture reading:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A gift? You don't work for a gift.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Peace would be impossible without the certain knowledge of salvation.

And not finally, but preemptively,

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Not finally. There are many passages promising assurance of salvation. You are just ignoring them. Sad.[color:#FF0000]

While I will respect what you and many call "scripture", I would object to Romans as being what Jesus called "Scripure" since Jesus only called the "Law and the Prophets" scripture and Paul's words were nothing until a group of pagan people put documents together called it the new testament and added it to the OT.

Intresting Jesus didn't even call His own words "scripture" but called them "the testimony of Jesus". (Rev. 12:17)

1Jn. 3:6-9 makes it clear that those who are truely born of God (born again by the Holy Spirit) will NEVER sin again!

And John317, Rev. 7:1-4 is proof that the tribulation will not start until the first fruits (144,000) have been sealed by God.

[John317]

1Jn. 3:6-9 makes it clear that those who are truely born of God (born again by the Holy Spirit) will NEVER sin again!

But this is not what those verses say. We've been over it before a number of times but you continue to repeat the same claim over and over again.

The NKJV contranslates 1 John 3: 9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." It doesn't mean such people will never sin again. That's a gross misinterpretation. Your New American Standard Version translates it correctly: "No one who is born of God practices sin." All you need to do is accept the translation of this verse in your own Bible.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Dr. Rich wrote:

"While I will respect what you and many call "scripture", I would object to Romans as being what Jesus called "Scripure" since Jesus only called the "Law and the Prophets" scripture and Paul's words were nothing until a group of pagan people put documents together called it the new testament and added it to the OT.

Intresting Jesus didn't even call His own words "scripture" but called them "the testimony of Jesus". (Rev. 12:17)

1Jn. 3:6-9 makes it clear that those who are truely born of God (born again by the Holy Spirit) will NEVER sin again!

And John317, Rev. 7:1-4 is proof that the tribulation will not start until the first fruits (144,000) have been sealed by God."

I respect your right to believe as you are moved, but yer gonna draw lots of flak from others of this forum if you mean what it appears, that much of the New Testament is not Scripture.

There is not universal agreement even on the canon of the Old Testament.

JawgeFromJawja

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

1Jn. 3:6-9 makes it clear that those who are truely born of God (born again by the Holy Spirit) will NEVER sin again!

But this is not what those verses say. We've been over it before a number of times but you continue to repeat the same claim over and over again.

The NKJV contranslates 1 John 3: 9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." It doesn't mean such people will never sin again. That's a gross misinterpretation. Your New American Standard Version translates it correctly: "No one who is born of God practices sin." All you need to do is accept the translation of this verse in your own Bible.

Here is what 1Jn. 3:9 states: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is Born of God"

So John317, what don't you understand about the words: "He Cannot Sin"? Huh?

Now lets use some common sense (if there is such a thing any more), on this whole issue. God is totally sinless! As John wrote, when someone is truely born of God they actually become part of God (the family of God) and it is impossible for them to sin again! Period! They will then be just like Jesus, in that they will be the Brothers and Sisters of Jesus Christ--both born of the same Mother, the Holy Spirit! (Rev. 12:5 & 17)

As I said before, this has NOT happened to anyone---YET. But it will when the 144,000 are sealed as the first fruits prior to the start of the tribulation. Therefore: It is clear to me that ALL who falsly say they have been born again by the Holy Spirit are liars. As such, it also appears to me that they have lied against the Holy Spirit which is blasphemy and a sin that will NOT EVER be forgiven, not in this age or the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32). What is your reply to this John317? If you can, please limit your reply to the words of Jesus. Thanks.

[John317]

And John317, Rev. 7:1-4 is proof that the tribulation will not start until the first fruits (144,000) have been sealed by God.

Yes, I agree with this.

[JawgeFromJawja]

So, when does 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 occur?

Compare 1 Cor. 15: 50-54. Isn't the second coming when this mortal will put on immortality?

To answer question one, see the Gospel of Matthew, 24:34 . The correct answer is "never".

Keep in mind that I Thessalonians was one of the earliest NT books, written circa 50 - 52 AD. Matthew, possibly written as late as 90 AD, was not available to Paul:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And yes indeed, if you will understand it, the Second Coming was during that generation.

The answer to your second question is found in

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You put on immortality at the moment you were born again.

Relax. Peace. God's gift of salvation is assured.

George

[John317]

1Jn. 3:6-9 makes it clear that those who are truely born of God (born again by the Holy Spirit) will NEVER sin again!

Originally Posted By: John3:17

But this is not what those verses say. We've been over it before a number of times but you continue to repeat the same claim over and over again.

The NKJV contranslates 1 John 3: 9, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin." It doesn't mean such people will never sin again. That's a gross misinterpretation. Your New American Standard Version translates it correctly: "No one who is born of God practices sin." All you need to do is accept the translation of this verse in your own Bible.

Originally Posted By: Dr Rich

Here is what 1Jn. 3:9 states: "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and HE CANNOT SIN, because he is Born of God"

So John317, what don't you understand about the words: "He Cannot Sin"? Huh?

Do you see the letters "PINF" in your Key-Word Study Bible? What does that signify? Check out the grammatical codes in your Bible.

It is a present infinitive verb, is it not?

It means, and is best translated, "cannot practice sin," or "cannot continue to practice sin." Compare other translations, such as the English Standard Version: "... he cannot keep sinning because he has been born of God."

"Cannot keep sinning" is not the same as "will never sin again."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

So, when does 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 occur?

Compare 1 Cor. 15: 50-54. Isn't the second coming when this mortal will put on immortality?

To answer question one, see the Gospel of Matthew, 24:34 . The correct answer is "never".

But that is not what the Bible says, and we must accept the Bible's testimony over any man's personal opinions.

What does the Bible say?

Matt. 24: 24 is not the answer to the question of when the resurrection will occur. The answer is that the resurrection of the dead will occur when Christ returns.

Your answer of "never" flatly contradicts 1 Thess. 4: 13-18. But perhaps you don't believe what these verses say.

[Dr. Rich]

John317, the "PINF" points to what they (the ones who printed this bible) say about these words. Howver, one must remember that they ALL, because of mistaken and common belief through tradition, believed that being born of the Holy Spirit meant when one repented and prayed for God to come into their life. They did not believe what Jesus said in John 3, but John knew exactly what he was writing about since that was the truth!

For your information, many people have been led down the path to destruction by reading the words of those who THOUGHT they knew the truth and wrote a 'commontairy' on it, but they were totally mistaken. That is why I wrote about 'common sense' about this whole issue. That is why John wrote about the seed of God being in this person and it is impossible for God to lie!

Was Jesus born of the Holy Spirit? Yes He was as we see what happened when Jesus became baptized! Two witnesses, a voice from the heavens (the Father) and a dove (Holy Spirit). And no, He was not touched on the forehead by John the Baptist causing Him to fall down as many stupid people believe and as seen on TV! All of that is NONSENSE!

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: John317

So, when does 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 occur?

Compare 1 Cor. 15: 50-54. Isn't the second coming when this mortal will put on immortality?

To answer question one, see the Gospel of Matthew, 24:34 . The correct answer is "never".

Keep in mind that I Thessalonians was one of the earliest NT books, written circa 50 - 52 AD. Matthew, possibly written as late as 90 AD, was not available to Paul: Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

And yes indeed, if you will understand it, the Second Coming was during that generation. The answer to your second question is found in Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. You put on immortality at the moment you were born again. Relax. Peace. God's gift of salvation is assured. George

I would agree that 1Thess. words about the "second coming" are not correct, but not as you have suggested. But first things first. Matthew 24:34 has Jesus taking about a generation that will see all of the signs first and that will be the last generation living on this earth that will do this, and by the way, that is all of us right now!

Yes, Jesus did say that all eyes would see (Matt. 24:30) but Jesus also said He would come like a thief and then proceeding to say this coming will be like in the days of Noah when things were normal and None of them knew a thing about what was going to happen. This coming is like a thief in the night, the same coming for ONLY the bondservants of Jesus Christ before the time of trouble even starts. He comes at that time to seal those who have overcome sin and are truely born of God and are forever righteous!

This is the same coming that we see in Acts 1:9-11 where only those disciples (servants of Jesus) saw Him go to heaven, so shall only the servants of Jesus see Jesus come like a thief. Matthew 25:1-13 further verifies that the coming like a thief will be only for the bondservants as we can read that even those in the Kingdom of Heaven will not see Jesus come as all of them will be sleeping when He comes at this time.

When you compare the two events and the conditions of the world at those times, that it is impossible for them to be the same event. In the first event, the coming like a thief, the world is about the same as it is right now. But, when Jesus comes in the clouds, all of the events that happen during the tribulation will have occured and for the last 5 months Satan, who impersonates Jesus and is in the temple at Jerusalam while all of the plagues have been going on, he as been trying to kill the two witnesses and can't. why? Because these two witnesses have been born of God and are now spiritual beings who can't be killed by anyone without the authority of God the Father. This authority is finaly given to Satan and he kills them and they lie in the streets for 3 and a half days until God raises them from the dead and takes them to heaven. After this event, the very next thing to happen is the coming in the clouds. enjoy!

[John317]

John317, the "PINF" points to what they (the ones who printed this bible) say about these words. Howver, one must remember that they ALL, because of mistaken and common belief through tradition, believed that being born of the Holy Spirit meant when one repented and prayed for God to come into their life.

Dr. Rich, PINF means that the verb in Greek is Present Infinitive. That is not an opinion. It is a fact. It has nothing to do with tradition.

What tense is "am sinning"? Would you claim that saying it is present tense is a mere opinion?

I thought after you had your Key Text NASV for so long that you would know how to use it. It is obvious you don't. The Grammatic Codes are not opinion, nor it is "opinion" as to how verb and nouns, etc., should be translated. If this is based on opinion, you are in a world o' hurt, as is everyone who speaks English or any other language that has rules of grammar.

Don't you even trust your own Bible? Do you think you know better how it ought to be translated than people who translated it and people who have studied Greek for decades?

This makes it clear why you and Musicman and Wayfinder believe that "tongues" in Acts 2:3 is singular when everyone who knows anything about Greek knows that it is a plural noun. That is why every translation published reads "tongues." But instead of acccepting the facts, you insist on it's being "tongue" in order to support your idea that Satan (and not God) was behind the events that transpired on that Pentecost. Such are the lengths people will go to when the Bible teaches something contrary to their favorite belief that they insist on keeping hold of.

[John317]

Was Jesus born of the Holy Spirit? Yes He was as we see what happened when Jesus became baptized! Two witnesses, a voice from the heavens (the Father) and a dove (Holy Spirit). And no, He was not touched on the forehead by John the Baptist causing Him to fall down as many stupid people believe and as seen on TV! All of that is NONSENSE!

Why did you write this?

[JawgeFromJawja]

John317L "But that is not what the Bible says, and we must accept the Bible's testimony over any man's personal opinions.

What does the Bible say?

Matt. 24: 24 is not the answer to the question of when the resurrection will occur. The answer is that the resurrection of the dead will occur when Christ returns.

Your answer of "never" flatly contradicts 1 Thess. 4: 13-18. But perhaps you don't believe what these verses say."

And 1 Thess 4: 13: - 18 flatly contradicts Matt. 24: 24.

We are spiritual beings. John 4: 24 - God is a Spirit;

Genesis 1: 27: So God created man[kind] in his own image.

In the image of God created He him; male and female

created He them.

God is a Spirit. Being in his image, we are spirits. And don't come at me with the garbage that "spirit" means "breath". My God is far more than a puff of air. Spirit means several things in The Bible, depending on the context, even with use of the Greek word "pneuma".

As with many concepts in the Bible, there was an evolution in the meaning of resurrection. The Sadducees, despondent sad sacks that they were right - there is no resurrection. And they had it wrong - there is a resurrection. The earliest Jews believed that

death was it.

Psa 78:39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

Nothingness for eternity. Which belief had generally evolved to a physical bodily resurrection by the NT. But not with the Sadducees. Belief in a physical bodily resurrection further changed. Check it out for yourselves - read the whole Bible several times to put it all together in a more or less complete package.

There are many glorious Psalms, but many of them are gloomy, morbid, and despondent. Many of them pointed to the grave as the end of it all for the individual.

We are created in the image of God, so being spiritual beings in His image, our resurrection is a spiritual resurrection.

Agape

George