By Request: Why the Catholic is NOT the Great Whore of Babylon.

[skyblue888]

While I wouldn't mind continuing this discussion about willful sin, "bragging," and whether a person is capable of actually knowing whether they are doing willful evil or not (And - unthinkable as some see it - saying as much), I really do think it's off the intended topic of this thread. There seems to be a better suited thread taking shape over on the "Some Issues" forum, for those so inclined.

Qinael. You have been on this forum only for a short while. Some of us have been here from the start. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is our Teacher? I believe you do. You should know that no one is to control the Spirit but we are to be controlled by the Spirit. Let the Spirit take us wherever He will. It is not for us to control the direction the discussion is taking. Let us not quench the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit's leading is like the wind. We do not know where it is coming from and where it is going.

sky

[skyblue888]

We are created in the image of God, so being spiritual beings in His image, our resurrection is a spiritual resurrection.

George

__________

Are you saying that in the resurrection we will not receive a new body, immortal, incorruptible?

sky

[John317]

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

You put on immortality at the moment you were born again.

That is not what John 5: 24 is saying. Christians do die the first death before Christ returns. Jesus said, "Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die." Was he promising that His followers would never die? Of course not. Was he saying they would become immortal as soon as they are born again? Of course not. All of the disciples of Christ died and therefore they were not immortal. This is clear since "immortal" means not to be subject to death. All humans are subject to death before the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming of Christ.

It is certain, therefore, that we don't become immortal when we accept Christ and are born again.

We can prove this is several ways:

First, it says in 1 Cor. 15 that this mortal body will put on immortality at the resurrection, and Paul makes it clear that this resurrection has not happened yet. Paul is teaching a resurrection of the body. It is not a spiritual resurrection, but a literal one. Notice especially 1 Cor. 15: 52-55. It is obvious that this literal, physical resurrection of the body takes place at the second coming. Compare 1 Thess. 4: 13-18.

Second, the resurrection of the righteous will occur in the same manner as the resurrection of Christ: the saved will be resurrected from the grave just as Christ was raised from the grave. That is when we become immortal. He received a glorified body when He was raised, and in the same way, His followers will receive glorified bodies when they are raised from the grave. Jesus Christ was not given the gift of immortality until His resurrection from the grave. Before that, He was obviously mortal, subject to death. The same applies to His followers.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Was Jesus born of the Holy Spirit? Yes He was as we see what happened when Jesus became baptized! Two witnesses, a voice from the heavens (the Father) and a dove (Holy Spirit). And no, He was not touched on the forehead by John the Baptist causing Him to fall down as many stupid people believe and as seen on TV! All of that is NONSENSE!

Why did you write this?

Jn. 17:14-21 is why. Please read it for it is the foundational stone to understand what being born of God really means. Jesus said that for their (the disciples) sake He Sanctified Himself. What this means John317, is that Jesus became born of the Holy Spirit as an example of what happens to one when they also become born of God. Then Jesus prayed for ONLY those of 'us' who through the words written by the eyewitness disciples, that we too CAN become born again and be ONE with the Family of God. Notice that Jesus did not pray for those who read the words of Paul, Luke or EGW.

Since Jesus prayed to His Father for ME, don't you think that this is important? The disciples became sanctified in the truth, not by faith and not by grace. This proves that only those disciples of Jesus had been born of God and it will be them who make up the 24 Elders in heaven as the jury for everyone's judgment. You can bet on it!

[Dr. Rich]

Yes John317, not that I am ignoring you, but John probably wrote the original in Aramaic. But who really cares? Evidently you (mistakenly) believe that no one can fully understand the bible unless they know the Greek language. How sad! What is sin Jim? It is not obeying God and believing in lies. One who has been born of God will obey God and have no lie in them, for they are blamless as found in Rev.14:5. Period.

Lets face it Jim, one can only be born of God ONCE! If they then sin, that's it--it's over for them because they just sinned the unpardonable sin, against the Holy Spirit.

By the way, there is some really good evidence that John the disciple did not write the gospel of John, but that Lazarus wrote it instead. This has been one of my investigative projects for the last few months.

[John317]

Was Jesus born of the Holy Spirit? Yes He was as we see what happened when Jesus became baptized! Two witnesses, a voice from the heavens (the Father) and a dove (Holy Spirit). And no, He was not touched on the forehead by John the Baptist causing Him to fall down as many stupid people believe and as seen on TV! All of that is NONSENSE!

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Why did you write this?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Jn. 17:14-21 is why.

But the part I was asking about were the lines:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

And no, He was not touched on the forehead by John the Baptist causing Him to fall down as many stupid people believe and as seen on TV! All of that is NONSENSE!

Why did you write that?

[Dr. Rich]

Why did I write 'that'? Watch Sunday morning religious TV sometime and you then would not have to ask me. And no, Bennie Hinn is not the only one doing this!

[John317]

OK, now I know what you mean. You're referring to the popular view of the "baptism of the Spirit." Of course no one here believes in that kind of thing, at least I don't know of anyone who does. But you're right-- that is total nonsense.

[John317]

... John probably wrote the original in Aramaic. But who really cares? Evidently you (mistakenly) believe that no one can fully understand the bible unless they know the Greek language. How sad!

That is not true.

I believe you should accept the published translations, such as your NASB. People don't need to know Greek, but they do need to accept the translations.

(Imagine a person who knows nothing of English thinking that he knows better how to translate from his language into English. That is what some people try to do with the Bible. No wonder so many people have such messed up ideas about the Bible's teachings. For instance, that Acts 2: 3 should read "tongue" instead of "tongues" and that this "correct reading" is proof that it was Satan who inspired Peter and the rest of the disciples on the day of Pentecost. Believe or not, there are people who actually think like this.)

You and many others are not even accepting the translations by people who have been studying the original languages for years.

I am not asking you to trust my word for it-- I am showing you the translations. That includes your own translation which you say is your favorite. So study it. Do you see the words "practices sin," "practices righteousness" in the verse under discussion (1 John 3: 7-10)? Those words do not indicate that one commits a sin or does a righteous act. Rather, they describe a continual doing of righteousness and a continual doing of wickedness.

[John317]

What is sin John3:17? It is not obeying God and believing in lies. One who has been born of God will obey God and have no lie in them, for they are blamless as found in Rev.14:5. Period.

Sin is the transgression of God's law, or lawlessness. 1 John 3: 4. People who are born of God won't go on practicing sin. That is what the text says. It does not say that people who are born again will never commit a sin again in their lifetime. 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 2 makes that very plain. If you would read and accept the whole Bible, you would see this very clearly.

"Blameless" people are not sinless people. Job was blameless but he wasn't sinless, was he?

[John317]

George, please use the "quote" "quick quotes" so people can see plainly the difference between your statements and the quotes of the person you are talking to. If you need help knowing how to use them, please let me know.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq

so was Jesus tempted or was he not tempted

Both - Jesus was tempted externally by the Devil yet He was NOT tempted within Himself.....

....Like Ellen White said He was in that Jesus wanted to indulge in gossip but ever resisted His temptation.

It would be like someone walking up to you and tempting you to indulge in a sin that disgusted you.....

.....Eventually you would be tempted to participate in a sin that you WANTED to indulge in.

.....In Jesus' case He was always disgusted with sin so that He never had to resist His own desire to sin.

[Aliensanctuary]

I don't think anyone here on Earth will be born again until a resurrection occurs, hence, "born again". It is, essentially, cloning, or a reincarnation of sorts, but unrelated to returning as animals or insects. We might imagine ourselves as "born again" Christians in this life, but in reality, the event hasn't yet occurred. The best we can do for now is to muddle our way through life by doing the best we can to obey the LORD until the Last Days, when the Kingdom of God is clearly explained to us, and we can make an informed choice, along with the rest of humanity.

1 Thess 4:

Quote:

13. We want you to be quite certain, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, to make sure that you do not grieve for them, as others do who have no hope.

14. We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and that in the same way God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15. We can tell you this from the Lord's own teaching, that we who are still alive for the Lord's coming will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep.

16. At the signal given by the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God, the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise,

17. and only after that shall we who remain alive be taken up in the clouds, together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. This is the way we shall be with the Lord forever.

This event, the return of Jesus the Messiah, occurs at the end of a great time of upheaval, as he stated in Matt 24. Preceding this, all of humanity is resurrected, the Four Beasts rise and fall, the 3 Angels and the 2 Witnesses explain the Kingdom of God to the whole world, and an unknown number of those who declare their loyalty to God are tortured, imprisoned, and/or executed. Those who have had the seal of God inscribed on their foreheads during this time will be safe from the 2nd death, the Eternal Lake of Fire.

Those bearing the Mark of God will have no fear when the LORD takes his place to judge the whole world, because they already have their names written in the Book of Life. Perhaps those chosen to become members of the Kingdom of God will indeed be reborn as children, as Jesus alluded to, when he receives his kingdom, perhaps not. They will all be in a safe place when those who failed the time of testing and rejected the LORD as their master are destroyed.

[jasd]

QR frame:

>>Re: By Request: Why the Catholic is NOT the Great Whore of Babylon.<<

This may seem a general response but I assure y'all - it is quite specific:

"is NOT" goes to basic hermeneutics.

[jasd]

Re those who are supposedly healed by magnetic manipulation – or Kundalini:

It is said that there is an axis, which runs through one’s head – from front to back. The forehead end of this axis is positively charged with the back of the head carrying a negative charge.

Purportedly, this sort of magnetic healing as practiced in Kundalini arts renders the one touched unconscious by ‘flipping’ the charges front to back either with a proper magnet or by a strongly charged human touch - sometimes effected through Prana(yama) breathing. (some people are naturally so magnetic that flatware or bits of metal can be put to their body and remain by magnetic force)

This ‘flipping’ of charges is thought to be sufficiently traumatic as to cause a kind of ‘reset’ in the mind and body – which, in some instances

heals.

Curious and curiouser...

(I still think that most of those seen on TV are simply faking it)

[cheddar]

What the cheese and crackers are you people talking about

[jasd]

Easy Dr Watson, sometimes it's neither miracle nor fakery but something betwixt the two.

[cheddar]

I don't think anyone here on Earth will be born again until a resurrection occurs, hence, "born again". It is, essentially, cloning, or a reincarnation of sorts, but unrelated to returning as animals or insects. We might imagine ourselves as "born again" Christians in this life, but in reality, the event hasn't yet occurred. The best we can do for now is to muddle our way through life by doing the best we can to obey the LORD until the Last Days, when the Kingdom of God is clearly explained to us, and we can make an informed choice, along with the rest of humanity.

1 Thess 4:

Quote:

13. We want you to be quite certain, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, to make sure that you do not grieve for them, as others do who have no hope.

14. We believe that Jesus died and rose again, and that in the same way God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15. We can tell you this from the Lord's own teaching, that we who are still alive for the Lord's coming will not have any advantage over those who have fallen asleep.

16. At the signal given by the voice of the Archangel and the trumpet of God, the Lord himself will come down from heaven; those who have died in Christ will be the first to rise,

17. and only after that shall we who remain alive be taken up in the clouds, together with them, to meet the Lord in the air. This is the way we shall be with the Lord forever.

This event, the return of Jesus the Messiah, occurs at the end of a great time of upheaval, as he stated in Matt 24. Preceding this, all of humanity is resurrected, the Four Beasts rise and fall, the 3 Angels and the 2 Witnesses explain the Kingdom of God to the whole world, and an unknown number of those who declare their loyalty to God are tortured, imprisoned, and/or executed. Those who have had the seal of God inscribed on their foreheads during this time will be safe from the 2nd death, the Eternal Lake of Fire.

Those bearing the Mark of God will have no fear when the LORD takes his place to judge the whole world, because they already have their names written in the Book of Life. Perhaps those chosen to become members of the Kingdom of God will indeed be reborn as children, as Jesus alluded to, when he receives his kingdom, perhaps not. They will all be in a safe place when those who failed the time of testing and rejected the LORD as their master are destroyed.

You mean the four beasts are in the last days too –

Well that does make sense if we read about the great image in Dan. 2

The rock that that destroys the feet also destroys the legs, arms and head.

If this happens at the very end then all the kingdoms must be in place during the end.

Prophecy makes a lot of sense when we don’t throw everything in the past.

[Aliensanctuary]

All four Beasts of the Last Days will fight against the Kingdom of God, and although appearing to overpower God's people, they ultimately lose the war to end all wars and are consigned to the eternal flames. Satan's Kingdom of the Fourth Beast is the first to be destroyed.

Although there may be Catholics on either side of the last war, it’s extremely unlikely that Rome is the fourth beast that destroys the world, precipitating the return of the Messiah. Concerning the 7-Headed 10-Horned Beast, the number seven, to me, indicates Earth, and anything concerning Earth, while the number ten signifies the Satanic Kingdom. I’m thinking that the number twelve means the future Kingdom of God on Earth.

Seven loaves and fish plus HS=Kingdom of God on Earth.

The Messengers speaking to Daniel clearly state that the beastly prophecies predict events of the Last Days. Our Founding Mothers and Fathers mistakenly believed that the Last Days began thousands of years ago when the four specified kingdoms were only minor, nearly insignificant, players on the world field. These kingdoms of the past foreshadow the Four Super-Kingdoms of the Last Days, post resurrection. Thus, the Day-For-Year construct has only served to mislead us by creating the belief that the Last Days really mean Last Millennia.

I believe that if we all put the red books aside and studied the scriptures free of other's interpretations, we might come closer to the truth than we are now. EGW created a self-fulfilling prophecy that her writings would be discarded at some point in time. It will come true, but not mainly by infidels or apostates, but by those who realize that she made mistakes, especially concerning events of the Last Days, and that her "visions" and communications with heavenly messengers were not exactly what she led people to believe. Seventh-day Adventism will ultimately be discarded on the rubbish pile of human history, along with all of the other man-made religions of the world.

Not that we should discard her work as rubbish. She was a very thoughtful and creative writer whose work can be helpful and inspirational. If we trust in human interpretation of scripture without studying it with open minds for ourselves, we will set ourselves up for a great disappointment when things don’t turn out the way we expected.

[cheddar]

I like how you referred to the 4th beast as Satan's kingdom.

If we read in Isa. 14, Lucifer is referred to as the 'king of Babylon'.

Ancient Babylon is a type of the kingdom of Babylon spoken of in Revelation.

-Nebuchadnezzar was king of Babylon -> Satan is king of the final Babylon

-Nebuchadnezzar set up a golden image and commanded everyone to worship it -> Satan will set up an image to the beast and command the world to worship it

-Nebuchadnezzar tried to kill anyone who didn't worship the image -> Satan will also kill all who don't worship the image and receive the mark

-Nebuchadnezzar's image had 2 sixes (height 60, width 6) -> Satan's number of the beast will have 3 sixes

[John317]

...I personally believe that all temptation is from without and either responded to or rejected. If responded to it then becomes a desire, as James says.

14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Why do you believe that all temptation is from outside the person? James says that every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires. In other words, temptation ordinarily comes from within the person, not outside. That is really the beginning of most temptations experienced by people with fallen natures. It wasn't the case with unfalllen Adam and Eve, but it certainly is the case with humans after Eden. Don't you experience most of your temptations coming from within your own mind? I do.

Of course temptations by themselves do not constitute sin.

The sin originates when wrong desires conceive. But Christ never allowed the wrong desires to conceive because the moment he was conscious of a wrong desire, He immediately gave it up to the Father and surrendered His will to Him.

[John317]

>>Re: By Request: Why the Catholic is NOT the Great Whore of Babylon.<<

This may seem a general response but I assure y'all - it is quite specific:

"is NOT" goes to basic hermeneutics.

Such a claim has as much authority as the mere claim that it "is." Unless the claim is supported by valid and solid biblical evidence, the claim is nothing. Therefore, show your evidence.

[John317]

You mean the four beasts are in the last days too

Well that does make sense if we read about the great image in Dan. 2

The rock that that destroys the feet also destroys the legs, arms and head.

If this happens at the very end then all the kingdoms must be in place during the end.

Prophecy makes a lot of sense when we dont throw everything in the past.

All the ethnic groups are still alive today: Babylonians (Iraqis); Medo-Persians (Iranians); Greeks (Greeks); Romans (Italians).

It doesn't mean the nations belonging to these people will be great empires at the end, however. They won't be.

Much in Bible prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. For instance, a lot of Matt. 24; much in Rev. 13 to 22; and a lot in Daniel 11 and 12. We're living in exciting times when we are witnessing the fulfillment of Bible prophecy with our own eyes. The trick is to recognize it, which can only happen when our spiritual eyes are illuminated by the Holy Spirit.

[John317]

... the fourth beast that destroys the world, precipitating the return of the Messiah.

Where does the Bible teach the fourth beast will destroy the world and precipitate the return of the Messiah?

What power do you believe is the fourth beast?

Who is the little horn power of Daniel 7 & 8?

[John317]

The best we can do for now is to muddle our way through life by doing the best we can to obey the LORD until the Last Days, when the Kingdom of God is clearly explained to us, and we can make an informed choice, along with the rest of humanity.

Is this what the Bible teaches?

Did Christ teach this?

Can we trust the Bible?