Clear Down Through History

[skyblue888]

Understanding last day events is also another important aspect of the last message of mercy to the church and to the world. Chapter 17 of the book of Revelation delineates for us what is to take place shortly. This chapter covers the history of mankind from the days of Ancient Babylon to the physical fall of Babylon the Great at the time of the fifth and sixth plagues, her spiritual fall having taken place when her sins shall have reached unto Heaven and that is when Sunday shall be enforced as the day of worship by the union of church and state, first in the U.S. and then in all countries around the globe.

sky

[Dr. Rich]

Understanding last day events is also another important aspect of the last message of mercy to the church and to the world. Chapter 17 of the book of Revelation delineates for us what is to take place shortly. This chapter covers the history of mankind from the days of Ancient Babylon to the physical fall of Babylon the Great at the time of the fifth and sixth plagues, her spiritual fall having taken place when her sins shall have reached unto Heaven and that is when Sunday shall be enforced as the day of worship by the union of church and state, first in the U.S. and then in all countries around the globe.

sky

Sky, you were doing great until your added words about the event that will never happen called the National Sunday Law. It is NOT found in the book of Revelation, nor any other place in the bible. This is a violation of Rev. 22:18-19. It was ok for EGW to do this because she is dead and the plagues will not effect her. But the fact is, anyone who still believes this are playing a 'game' with God called "Fact vs. Fiction".

That 'great city' known as Babylon is the same place where they killed Jesus.

[skyblue888]

That 'great city' known as Babylon is the same place where they killed Jesus.

Rich

That "great city" referred here in Rev.11 was France at the time of the French Revolution. It is not referred to as Babylon but as spiritual Egypt or Sodom and Gomorrah.

As to whether the enactment of the Sunday Law is fiction or fact, time will tell.

sky

[cheddar]

That 'great city' known as Babylon is the same place where they killed Jesus.

Rich

That "great city" referred here in Rev.11 was France at the time of the French Revolution. It is not referred to as Babylon but as spiritual Egypt or Sodom and Gomorrah.

As to whether the enactment of the Sunday Law is fiction or fact, time will tell.

sky

Actually Sky, if you follow the 'great city' thru the book of Rev. it is referring to Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is referred to in many different ways throughout scripture i.e. past, present, future, old, new, literal, spiritual - a lot of different ways.

Spiritually, Babylon may refer to the false gospels and the churches who proclaim them, but the great city known as Babylon in the book of Rev. is Jerusalem not France.

[skyblue888]

I know all about what some of you have been saying. I have read it all on other threads. The chapter of the French Revolution in The Great Controversy reveals that your position is not the correct one. I am not saying that I take what is said in that chapter blindly though I would much sooner take anything the Lord says with my eyes closed than what the devil says with my eyes opened.

sky :)

[cheddar]

I know all about what some of you have been saying. I have read it all on other threads. The chapter of the French Revolution in The Great Controversy reveals that your position is not the correct one. I am not saying that I take what is said in that chapter blindly though I would much sooner take anything the Lord says with my eyes closed than what the devil says with my eyes opened.

sky

The two witnesses are the leaders of the 144,000 not some book burning in France.

Another historical interpretation that wrests the scriptures and has no basis in fact.

God has always used two men as the leaders of his people. It's a time tested formula going all the way back to Moses and Aaron and the last days will be no different.

Go back to the book of Zechariah, that's where the story of the two witnesses or two anointed ones comes from.

[hch]

Club, Richard, Bob, okay this was a bit long but I think it is easy to read and to follow and I would appreciate your feedback. Anyone actually. How about you Pastor Chick? what do you think? Do you see anything wrong with what has been posted or it all truth?

sky

So far so good.

[BobRyan]

Hazen Foss and William Foy were both given prophetic ministry before Ellen Harmon.

But both balked when they came to the message about the "3rd step" that "went all the way to the kingdom". They saw themselves as having taken two steps - but could not believe there was a third one yet to be proclaimed... they told God they would not go further and their ministry ended with their refusal to give the vision regarding third angel's message.

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Club, Richard, Bob, okay this was a bit long but I think it is easy to read and to follow and I would appreciate your feedback. Anyone actually. How about you Pastor Chick? what do you think? Do you see anything wrong with what has been posted or it all truth?

sky

So far so good.

Good.

sky

[skyblue888]

Hazen Foss and William Foy were both given prophetic ministry before Ellen Harmon.

But both balked when they came to the message about the "3rd step" that "went all the way to the kingdom". They saw themselves as having taken two steps - but could not believe there was a third one yet to be proclaimed... they told God they would not go further and their ministry ended with their refusal to give the vision regarding third angel's message.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I thought from the start they refused to share the visions they had received. You must have some references for what you stated. Could you share them with us, please. Thanks

sky

[skyblue888]

Last Day Events (another important aspect of the last message of mercy to the church and to the world)

Revelation 17 gives us a complete picture of the history of this world reaching all the way from ancient Babylon to the drying up of the River Euphrates after the close of probation prior to the return of Jesus in the "clouds" of Heaven. Please let me share with you what I have come to understand over the years.

THE JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE

"Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked to me, saying to me, 'Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication [color:#330033] . " Rev.17:1,2.

The next verse starts with the word, "So." What does the word "so" indicate? That what is now going to follow is the fulfillment of the statement made by the angel: "I will show you the judgment of the great whore." So, to accomplish this promise, he now carries him away in the Spirit into the "wilderness."

"So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw the woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns." Rev .17:3.

"And on her forehead a name was written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, The Mother of Harlots and of The Abominations of the Earth." Rev.17:5.

For the first time, we find a symbolic name, an actual symbolic name, not just a symbol but a symbolic name. A woman is a symbol of a church but Babylon is a symbolic name for it.

We now have a symbolic name for the whore or the woman. We should expect very obviously that there would be a symbolic name provided for the waters or that scarlet beast upon which the whore sits.

Now, we are looking for a symbolic name not mentioned in the chapter. And we are expected to understand what that symbolic name is because here is that whore whose symbolic name is Great Babylon sitting upon those waters, the symbolic name of which must be Euphrates!

Back in the Old Testament times, what did Babylon sit on? Euphrates! We can't separate Euphrates from Babylon. Just as ancient Babylon sat on and was supported by the great river Euphrates, which kept that great city alive, so, modern Babylon sits upon the peoples of this earth because waters symbolize peoples and therefore, if Babylon sits upon waters, the waters must have a symbolic name, and that symbolic name must come from the type in the Old Testament. In other words, here was typical Babylon and here was a typical river!

"And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth." Rev.17:18.

Therefore, the waters, the beast, and the kings of the earth are three different symbols representing the same thing, the peoples of the earth. The day will come when all the peoples of this earth will support Babylon the Great but that support will be "dried up" suddenly at the time of the fifth plague.

Just as the ancient River was dried up to make way for the kings of the east, ( Medo-Persian kings) so the people who support the whore in the last days will be "dried up" to bring about the downfall of Babylon The Great and thus make way for the Kings of the East, Christ and the redeemed who are with Him, to return! See Ezekiel 43:2.

If we think type and antitype, we will have no problem identifying symbolic names in the book of Revelation.

sky

[skyblue888]

In verse 6 we read:

"And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marvelled with great amazement."

Back in verse 3 the angel promised to give John the interpretation of the vision which previously had been given. The angel said, "I will tell you the mystery of the woman."

When you start to read the angel's explanation, your first reaction is that he has made the mystery more mysterious! Let us read it in verse 8:

"The beast (whore) that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, is not, and yet is."

Do you feel you were given a good explanation? Verse 9:

"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, and the other is yet to come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. And the beast that was, and is not, is himself the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition."

A little bit of careful study will soon begin to unravel this mystery and you will be surprised how simple the prophecy really is. First of all in verse 8:

"The beast that you saw and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition."

When we have an expression like, "was", "is not", and "is again", it indicates that we need to have a reference point in time. The reference point chosen determines what was, what is not and what will be as the case may be.

In order for us to understand what beast is spoken of as being in the past, and also being not present, and shall be again, we have to make up our minds on the basis of the evidence given. What was the reference point from which John was observing these facts? That is very very important to know!

Some have taken the position that John is speaking from his own point of time, but when we study the works of a prophet, do we find that they all spoke from their own point of time? Or were they sometimes moved far away into the future and spoke from that point of time?

A prophet is very often picked up from his own time and projected far into the future and from that future point of time, he then begins to describe things that were and are and will be. And if we are to understand what the prophet is saying, what must we determine? That reference point. It is not very difficult.

In verse 3 we are told that in order to see the judgement of the great whore, John had to be carried in the Spirit into the wilderness. When he got there, what did he see? He saw the whore sitting upon the scarlet beast. Now if he had to go to the wilderness to see the whore, where must she have been? In the wilderness.

What does it mean for the woman to be in the wilderness? Is she always there or is it a temporary sojourn and not a permanent one? If we go back to Revelation 12, we find that when the woman (pure church) brought forth the man child (Jesus) where did she flee after the man child was taken up to Heaven? To the wilderness. Between 538 and 1798, the true church of God was in the wilderness. She went there in obscurity as a result of the persecuting powers that sought to destroy her.

Therefore, the true church was not "in the wilderness" when Jesus Christ was living upon the earth nor during the Apostolic period but when the persecution began, that is when she found herself driven into the wilderness. So, obviously, what does it mean to be in the wilderness? It means to be oppressed, persecuted; it means to be the tail and not the head, to be under, and not above.

During the time when the true church of God was "in the wilderness," was Papal Rome also in the same place? No. She was on top. She was sitting as a queen! Now, what about John's own day? Was Pagan Rome persecuted and driven away from her own natural habitat or was she likewise on top of the world? On top!

So, when did the papal power go "into the wilderness?" In 1798! In 1798 the papacy was driven "into the wilderness" in a position of oppression and obscurity. But that did not stop the papacy from doing her work to regain the supremacy of the world. Since then she has been working in obscurity, working behind the scenes, pulling the strings, politically and religiously. Therefore, what was John's point of reference? After 1798.

sky

[Dr. Waite]

You should note that the 2nd angel does not come with a "loud voice" like the 1st and 3rd. However, the 4th angel "cried mightily with a strong voice" and adds to the 2nd angel saying: "is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and the cage of every unclean and hateful bird."

[skyblue888]

Brother Waite, you just quoted from Rev.18:2. This is still future. This won't be present truth until Sunday shall be enforced by the union of church and state. Then the sins of Babylon the Great will have reached unto heaven (verse 5) and the call to "come out of her My people" will be proclaimed.

sky

[skyblue888]

Verses 9 and 10: "Here is the mind which has wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time."

In prophecy, what does a "mountain" symbolize? A kingdom. In Jeremiah 51:25, Babylon is described as being a "destroying mountain." Daniel 2 mentions two mountains. The one from which the stone was cut and the one under which the stone grew. What do these "mountains" symbolize? God's Kingdom.

"The seven heads are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come and when he comes, he must continue a short time."

To identify those kings, what must we have? Again, a point of reference before which five have fallen, one still remained, and the other had not yet come.

If we take John's own day as the point of reference this is what we get:

Five have fallen

1.Egypt

2.Assyria

3.Babylon

4.Medo-Persia

5.Greece

________________________________

6.Pagan Rome (POINT OF REFERENCE)

the one that is in John's day

7.Papal Rome---yet to come

But then, we have a problem because we have one that is, and in John's day, that one was Pagan Rome and the other one which had not yet come was Papal Rome. But what about the beast of Revelation 11, Atheistic France, and the lamb-like beast of Rev.13, Apostate Protestantism? So if we take John's day as the point of reference, we have to say, 5 have fallen, one is, and THREE are yet to come! But does the Bible say that? It doesn't.

But if we take the point of reference given us directly from verse 3 of chapter 17, which is the time after 1798, we now ask the question: which are the five which have fallen? It is, very obviously:

1.Babylon

2.Medo-Persia

3.Greece

4.Pagan Rome

5.Papal Rome

6.Atheistic France (After 1798) POINT OF REFERENCE) one that is

7.Apostate Protestantism (the one which is yet to come)

What was the satanic form which took over from Papal Rome after 1798? Atheism. Revelation 11:7; The Great Controversy, p.269,270. And what is the other one which has not yet come? The lamb-like beast of Revelation 13, Apostate Protestantism.

Verse 12: "And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as king with the beast. They are one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."

What is the popular interpretation of what these 10 horns or ten kings are? The common market countries of ancient Europe: Noway, Sweeden, Germany, Denmark, England, France, Holland, Belgium, Spain, and Portugal.

But this conclusion we cannot accept for one important reason. What is it in the text itself which would make it an impossibility for those ancient European kings to be the ten horns or the ten kings of Revelation 17:12? The text says that THESE KINGS HAVE RECEIVED NO POWER AS KINGS YET and they will not receive power as kings until one hour with the beast.

So, at what point of time alone in human history will the ten horns receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast? At the very end. Not before the Papacy comes back to universal dominion, and that time has not yet come.

Does England have power as a kingdom today? Certainly. Does France have power as a kingdom today? It does. Does Germany have power as a kingdom today? Yes, it does. So do all the European countries. Therefore, not one of those countries are the powers mentioned here in Revelation 17:12.

One more thing, we cannot limit the ten horns (kings) on this beast to anything less than the territory occupied by this beast which is the entire world. The ten countries of Europe are only a small part of that territory today. Whatever territory is occupied by the beast is occupied by the horns on the beast. Therefore, the ten kings occupy how much of the world? All of it.

Verse 13: "These have one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."

"In the warfare to be waged in the last days, there will be united, in opposition to God's people, all the corrupt powers that have apostatized from allegiance to the law of God. There will be a universal bond of union, one great harmony, a confederacy of Satan's forces. 'And shall give their power and strength to the beast.'"

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7a, p.427.

Does Apostate Protestantism have a power as a kingdom today? No, but when it receives the power of the State, it will be a kingdom then for one hour with the beast. The ten kings (horns) are the peoples of this earth distributed in the ten major world religions:

1.Protestantism

2.Catholicism

3.Greek Orthodox

4.Judaism

5.Islam

6.Buddhism

7.Shintuism

8.Confucianism

9.Hinduism

10.Communism

These will make an image to the beast and will receive power from the state and will give it to the papacy and reign with her for a short time.

sky

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

I know all about what some of you have been saying. I have read it all on other threads. The chapter of the French Revolution in The Great Controversy reveals that your position is not the correct one. I am not saying that I take what is said in that chapter blindly though I would much sooner take anything the Lord says with my eyes closed than what the devil says with my eyes opened.

sky

The two witnesses are the leaders of the 144,000 not some book burning in France.

Another historical interpretation that wrests the scriptures and has no basis in fact.

God has always used two men as the leaders of his people. It's a time tested formula going all the way back to Moses and Aaron and the last days will be no different.

Go back to the book of Zechariah, that's where the story of the two witnesses or two anointed ones comes from.

Very good cheddar, I can see you are on your way to the truth!

[Dr. Waite]

Brother Waite, you just quoted from Rev.18:2. This is still future. This won't be present truth until Sunday shall be enforced by the union of church and state. Then the sins of Babylon the Great will have reached unto heaven (verse 5) and the call to "come out of her My people" will be proclaimed.

sky

Is this your own private belief and do you have a "thus saith the LORD" to base this on?

[cheddar]

Originally Posted By: cheddar

The two witnesses are the leaders of the 144,000 not some book burning in France.

Another historical interpretation that wrests the scriptures and has no basis in fact.

God has always used two men as the leaders of his people. It's a time tested formula going all the way back to Moses and Aaron and the last days will be no different.

Go back to the book of Zechariah, that's where the story of the two witnesses or two anointed ones comes from.

Very good cheddar, I can see you are on your way to the truth!

The traditional understanding of the two witnesses is so bad that it's no wonder other faiths make fun of our prophetic understanding.

The two witnesses who are referred to as prophets somehow get turned into inanimate objects like a book and die in the great city which magically becomes France!

The book of Zechariah clearly identifies the two anointed ones as Zerubbabel the governor and Joshua the high priest who are types of the two witnesses in Rev. 11

[Dr. Rich]

Cheddar, Wow you are way ahead of the pack! It is a breath of fresh air to read real truth. A few of us here are also truth seekers. Don't go away if the rest make fun of you and mock your wisdom. Using the insight from God's words that have already been given to us by His eyewitnesses instead of attempting to put the puzzel together with pieces from words of all others is true wisdom! Yep, Rev. 2:18-26 really hits home with the false idea of the two witnesses being the OT and NT of the bible. How sad!

[Gordon1]

It should be noted that there are significant differences regarding the two witnesses when comparing the present (1911) edition of the Great Controversy, with the 1884 Great Controversy.

[cheddar]

Cheddar, Wow you are way ahead of the pack! It is a breath of fresh air to read real truth. A few of us here are also truth seekers. Don't go away if the rest make fun of you and mock your wisdom. Using the insight from God's words that have already been given to us by His eyewitnesses instead of attempting to put the puzzel together with pieces from words of all others is true wisdom! Yep, Rev. 2:18-26 really hits home with the false idea of the two witnesses being the OT and NT of the bible. How sad!

We may not agree on Paul and the gospel but that doesn't mean we can't agree on other things.

[BobRyan]

Hazen Foss and William Foy were both given prophetic ministry before Ellen Harmon.

But both balked when they came to the message about the "3rd step" that "went all the way to the kingdom". They saw themselves as having taken two steps - but could not believe there was a third one yet to be proclaimed... they told God they would not go further and their ministry ended with their refusal to give the vision regarding third angel's message.

[Musicman1228]

Did God ever ask a person in OT times to become a prophet and have them turn God down? I don't recall this ever happening. Before Jonah ran from God he had already agreed to be a prophet of God. To my knowledge not one person who God asked to be His prophet ever turned Him down.

Why? Because God knows the end from the beginning and would know who would accept the commission and who would not. Thus God never asked anyone who He knew would say 'no' to do something He knew the would not do. God is not cruel. God also never used coercion or the threat of physical violence to get anyone to do what He wanted them to do. Again, Jonah had already accepted the commission to be God's prophet before God had a fish swallow him and take him to his destination.

This has significance in two ways:

God would not have asked Foss and Foy to be His prophets knowing they would eventually say 'NO'. If God really wanted EGW to be His prophet why did He feel the need to go through Foss and Foy first? If God knew they would say 'no' why didn't God go directly to EGW? The only 'god' that would make this kind of error would not be the God that knows the end from the beginning. Therefore, the 'god' that gave Foss and Foy their first visions did not know that their answer would be 'no' to continuing the work, therefore this 'god' could not have been the God of Creation.

Extending from that; Ellen White was given her first vision (Lovett's grove) that was full of errors after Foss and Foy rejected their prophetic calling, indicating that the 'god' that gave her this vision, and subsequent visions, was the same 'god' that did not know that Foss or Foy would choose to not be prophets. The God of Heaven makes no mistakes, either in giving the correct visions, or in choosing the correct prophets.

[John317]

... Ellen White was given her first vision (Lovett's grove) that was full of errors after Foss and Foy rejected their prophetic calling, indicating that the 'god' that gave her this vision, and subsequent visions, was the same 'god' that did not know that Foss or Foy would choose to not be prophets. The God of Heaven makes no mistakes, either in giving the correct visions, or in choosing the correct prophets.

You're confused. The vision at Lovett's grove was in 1858, in Ohio, whereas her first vision was in Dec. 1844, Portland, Maine.

What was the subject of the vision at Lovett's Grove?

[ClubV12]

I'm trying something new. Study more, learn, say less.

This is a good thread, I'm learning a lot. :)