"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[skyblue888]

"Therefore God gave His servants a testimony that presented the truth as it is in Jesus, which is the third angel's message in clear, distinct lines." T.M.93.

Mrs. White wrote these words about Jones and Waggoner in 1896 and what I have just quoted by Jones was presented at the G.C. seesion in 1895: The third angel's message in clear, distinct lines. The truth as it is in Jesus.

sky

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

I'll help you:

Thank you but I don't need your help.

Then be honest with the Scripture concerning the gospel. Quit playing games....

[Sonny]

"Therefore God gave His servants a testimony that presented the truth as it is in Jesus, which is the third angel's message in clear, distinct lines." T.M.93.

Bingo!

Read the first eight chapters

[skyblue888]

"When He stood where we are, He said, 'I will put my trust in Him' and that trust was never disappointed. In response to that trust the Father dwelt in Him and with Him and kept Him from sinning. Who was He? We. And thus the Lord Jesus has brought to every man in this world divine faith. That is the faith of the Lord Jesus. That is saving faith. Faith is not something that comes from ourselves with which we believe upon Him, but it is that something with which He believed--the faith which He exercised, which He brings to us, and which becomes ours and works in us--the gift of God. That is what the word means, 'Here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.' They keep the faith of Jesus because it is that divine faith which Jesus exercised Himself.

He being we brought to us that divine faith which saves the soul--that divine faith by which we can say with Him, 'I will put my trust in Him.' And in so putting our trust in Him, that trust today will never be disappointed anymore than it was then. God responded then to the trust and dwelt with Him. God will respond today to that trust in us and will dwell with us.

God dwelt with Him and He was ourselves. Therefore His name is Emmanuel, God with us. Not God with Him. God was with Him before the world was; He could have remained there and not come here at all and still God could have remained with Him and His name could have been God with Him. He could have come into this world as He was in heaven and His name could still have been God with Him. But that never could have been God with us. But what we needed was God with us. God with Him does not help us, unless He is we. But that is the blessedness of it. He who was one of God became one of us; He who was God became we, in order that God with Him should be God with us. O, that is His name! That is His name! Rejoice in that name forevermore--God with us." Ibid, 270.

sky

[miz3]

Sonny,

I have been honest.

However, you are the one playing "metaphor games", NOT ME!

Also it is clear that you are playing games by "taking Ellen White quotes out of context" and attempting to attach it to unrelated Scripture. Again, NOT ME!

I believe you have the "game on the wrong foot"! By the way it is your foot that the game is on!

[Sonny]

Miz3, do you still agree with Paul, or have you now changed your mind and have gone to a different gospel?

Romans 6:6 "our old life died with Christ on the cross"

Romans 7:4 ..."You also died to the law through the body of Christ"....

2 Cor 5:14 ..."One died for all, and therefore all died"

[skyblue888]

More from those lectures taken from the 1895 G.C. Bulletin, by Jones:

"Weak as we; sinful as we--simply ourselves--He went through this world and never sinned. He was sinful as we, weak as we, helpless as we, helpless as the man is who is without God, yet by His trust in God, God so visited Him, so abode with Him, so strengthened Him, that, instead of sin ever being manifested, the righteousness of God was always manifested.

But who was He? He was ourselves. Then God has demonstrated once in the world and to the universe that He will so come to me and you and so live with us as we are in the world today and will cause His grace and His power to so abide with us that, in spite of all our sinfulness, in spite of all our weaknesses, the righteousness and the holy influence of God will be manifested to men instead of ourselves and our sinfulness.

The mystery of God is not God manifest in sinless flesh. There is mystery about God being manifest in sinless flesh; that is natural enough. Is not God Himself sinless? Is there then any room for wonder that God could manifest Himself through or in sinless flesh? Is there any mystery as to God's manifesting His power and His righteous glory through Gabriel or through the bright seraphim or the cherubim? No. That is natural enough. But the wonder is that God can do that through and in sinful flesh. That is the mystery of God. God manifest in sinful flesh.

In Jesus Christ as He was in sinful flesh, God has demonstrated before the universe that He can so take possession of sinful flesh as to manifest His own presence, His power, and His glory, instead of sin manifesting itself. And all that the Son asks of any man in order to accomplish this in Him is that the man will let the Lord have Him as the Lord Jesus did.

Jesus said, "I will put my trust in Him." And in that trust Christ brought to every one the divine faith by which we can put our trust in Him. And when we do so separate from the world and put our sole trust in Him, then God will so take us and so use us that our sinful selves shall not appear to influence or affect anybody, but God will manifest His righteous self, His glory, before men, in spite of all ourselves and our sinfulness. That is the truth. And that is the mystery of God, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." God manifest in sinful flesh.

Upon this point, also, Satan discourages many. To the believing sinner Satan says: You are too sinful to count yourself a Christian. God cannot have anything to do with you. Look at yourself. You know you are good for nothing. Satan has discouraged us thousands of times with that kind of argument.

But God has wrought out an argument that puts this plea of Satan all to shame, for Jesus came and became ourselves--sinful as we are, laden with the sins of the world--far more sins than there are upon me. And in Him, laden with ten thousand times more sins than ever were upon me, God has demonstrated that with one so sinful as that, He will come and live a whole lifetime and manifest Himself and His righteousness in spite of all the sinfulness and in spite of the devil. God laid help upon One who is mighty, and that help reaches us. Thank the Lord." Ibid, 302,303.

sky

[Twilight II]

"Therefore God gave His servants a testimony that presented the truth as it is in Jesus, which is the third angel's message in clear, distinct lines." T.M.93.

Mrs. White wrote these words about Jones and Waggoner in 1896 and what I have just quoted by Jones was presented at the G.C. seesion in 1895: The third angel's message in clear, distinct lines. The truth as it is in Jesus.

sky

That is a big old step you have taken there Sky...

When Ellen White herself states that Christ had no evil propensities in Him.

As does John.

So I doubt the endorsement you seek is really here...

[Sonny]

So when did God place you into Christ?

You, Miz3, have failed to give Biblical evidence when God, through the Spirit, put you into Christ.

Ellen White:

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption."

[Twilight II]

God manifest in sinful flesh.

[Sonny]

You make the gospel complicated. Christ came to save sinners imprisoned under the law. He did this by uniting us to Himself and in so doing He rewrote our history from one of condemnation to justification.

[skyblue888]

There are no contradictions between the aposlte, A.T. Jones in 1895 and Mrs. White. Only apparent ones.

sky

[Twilight II]

There are no contradictions between the aposlte, A.T. Jones and Mrs. White. Only apparent ones.

sky

Jones stated that Christ had sin in his flesh.

White states that Christ had no evil propensity in Him.

Both cannot be true...

Paul states we have sin in our flesh.

John and Jesus states that there was no sin in Christ.

So Paul addresses our condition.

John and Jesus clearly state there is no sin in Christ.

Ellen White states there was no sin in Christ.

But Jones says their was...

So I have to reject Jones view as incorrect.

[Twilight II]

There are no contradictions between the aposlte, A.T. Jones in 1895 and Mrs. White. Only apparent ones.

sky

Can you clarify something here Sky, are you stating Jones was an apostle, or are you referring to "the" apostles?

[Sonny]

1 Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Why doesn't Christ have to contend with sin in the flesh? Your own quote answers this question: Because He came "to take away our sins".

Your quote above is the same as this:

Romans 6:6 "our old life was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away"

Same idea. Christ took our old life into Himself at the incarnation. That life is our life, a body indwelt with sin. On the cross our life died forever. And hence our body of sin (our humanity indwelt with sin) perished forever. He took away our sins....

There, that wasn't completed!

[Twilight II]

Same idea. Christ took our old life into Himself at the incarnation.

Miz3 has correctly pointed out that there is no scriptural support that Christ took our sinful propensities into Himself at the incarnation...

None that I am aware of, that deal directly with the subject.

[Sonny]

1 Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Here's another one:

2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh (past tense - refers to before the cross), yet now we know Him thus no longer (after the resurrection). 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ (by faith is implied), he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new (i.e., in Christ we are perfect - we are without indwelling sin). 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He (God) made Him (Christ as God) who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

[Sonny]

Miz3 has correctly pointed out that there is no scriptural support that Christ took our sinful propensities into Himself at the incarnation...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Miz3 has correctly pointed out that there is no scriptural support that Christ took our sinful propensities into Himself at the incarnation...

What did I say? Why are you confusing the issue? This is the work of the enemy!

Here's what I said:

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Christ took our old life into Himself at the incarnation.

Christ took your life, Twilight, into Himself and in so doing He legally rewrote your history.

[Sonny]

2 Cor 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh.

In other words look at them as they are "in Christ" in the heavenly places. See Eph 2:6/Col 1:13,14.

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer .

Before the cross Christ was known according to the flesh - humanity indwelt with sin (the sin nature), but after the resurrection Christ is without sin.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ (by faith is implied), he is a new creation; all things have passed away; behold, all things have become new

In Christ we have a new creation! Our old life from Adam, indwelt with sin, died in the humanity of Christ, which was our humanity.

[Sonny]

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer .

The above is your answer to 1 John 3:5

[Sonny]

Christ, the Son of God, clothed Himself with humanity.

It's a metaphor that implies He united Himself with our humanity that needed redeeming.

[Sonny]

I implore all of you who oppose my view, please read the following with an open mind and heart:

So the question is, “How did God save mankind?” How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] who believe in Jesus and yet maintain the integrity of his holy law which condemns the sinner? Does he bypass the law? God cannot say, “I am sovereign and, therefore, I don’t have to keep my own law. Since I love this rebellious, sinful human race unconditionally I will take them to heaven.” God cannot do that, because he is always true to himself. So the answer to the problem is the “in Christ” idea.

The expression “in Christ” is a rather difficult phrase to understand just as “you must be born again” was difficult for Nicodemus. “‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’” [John 3:4]. Likewise, the concept of “in Christ” is a difficult idea for us to understand. This is especially true of the Western mind, because in the Western world we think in terms of individuals, whereas the “in Christ” idea is based on what is known as biblical solidarity — the many in one.

To help us understand what the term means, we will look at two examples in the Bible, which will also help us understand what God is saying in Ephesians 2. The first example is found in the book of Romans. Quoting from the Old Testament, the apostle Paul is addressing Jewish believers at Rome. God is speaking to Rebekah, the wife of Isaac: “She was told, ‘The older will serve the younger’” [Romans 9:12].

God was talking in “solidarity” language. When he used the word “older,” he was not referring to Esau, but to the Edomites, who were descendants of Esau. When he used the word “younger,” he was not talking of Jacob the individual, but of the Israelites, who were the descendants of Jacob [see Genesis 25:21-23]. It is true that the Edomites, Esau’s descendants, did serve the Israelites, Jacob’s descendants. That is solidarity.

Another example in the New Testament that is helpful in understanding what Paul means by the phrase “in Christ” is in Hebrews 5-8. Paul is trying to convince the Jewish Christians that Christ, as their High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary, is far superior to the Levitical priest of Judaism. These Jewish Christians were in constant danger of giving up Christ and returning to Judaism. So Paul told them, To give up Christ as your High Priest and to go back to Levi as your priest is a step backward. Don’t give up reality for a substitute.

But to convince them not to give up their faith in Christ as their High Priest, Paul had to prove that Christ, as the believer’s great High Priest, is superior to the Levitical priesthood of the earthly sanctuary that was practiced in Old Testament times. How did he do it?

Christ could not belong to the Levitical priesthood because, according to the law of Moses, he had to be a descendant of Levi. Christ was born under the tribe of Judah. Both Joseph and Mary were of the tribe of Judah, so Christ is said to be the High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek [Hebrews 7:7-10], a priest who existed in the time of Abraham [Hebrews 6:20].

Having established this fact, Paul then explained that Melchizedek was superior to Levi. The proof he gave was that Levi paid tithe to Melchizedek [Hebrews 7:10]. However, if you read the Old Testament, Levi, as an individual, never paid tithe to Melchizedek. It was Abraham who paid that tithe. The explanation is that even though Levi, the great grandson of Abraham, did not exist when Abraham met Melchizedek, he was in the loins of his father, therefore Levi was implicated in paying tithe to Melchizedek in Abraham. Because you and I were in Adam when he sinned, we therefore suffered the consequences of his sin.

Likewise, at the incarnation, God took the corporate life of the human race to which we belong and which needs to be redeemed, and, in the womb of Mary, God united the human race and the divine life of Christ so, when Christ was born into this world, he was both God and man. The human aspect of Christ was really the corporate life of the human race whom he came to redeem. That is why Jesus is called the second or last Adam (mankind) [1 Corinthians 15:45]. [JS]

[miz3]

Miz3, do you still agree with Paul, or have you now changed your mind and have gone to a different gospel?

I agree with Paul! Paul and I preach the same Gospel!

I just don't agree with you and Jack S.

[miz3]

You make the gospel complicated. Christ came to save sinners imprisoned under the law. He did this by uniting us to Himself and in so doing He rewrote our history from one of condemnation to justification.

I am sorry Sonny but again you have the "shoe on the wrong foot". The complicated Gospel comes from you and Jack S.

Paul and I are quite simple.

Go back and compare all our posts on the "Creeds thread" and on this current thread and you will find that you make a much more complex assertion than do I.

In fact you have a few times referred us to the pages and pages of Jack S. for explanations.

I think the the "complex gospel shoe" is actually on your foot Sonny!