"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

You don't accept the teachings of the sanctuary service then Sonny?

Symbols....Christ is the reality.

I notice you didn't deal with the other query I placed on your theology.

You state in one place that it is impossible that "sin" was placed on Christ at the cross.

But in another you state that "sin" was placed in Christ at His birth.

In both arguments the sin on humanity is assumed by Christ.

Why then is it impossible at the cross but possible at the incarnation?

Why is one a "metaphor" but the other a "reality"?

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

The "you are wrong because I say so" argument holds no water with me Sonny.

It's not because I say so...it's because Paul says so...

No, it is what you are saying that Paul said I have an issue with.

I also find the "you are wrong" arguments of very little value in a discussion unless a reason can be explained as to why that is the case.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Christ overcame Satan.

That's not what Paul states. Maybe elsewhere, but not in this context. Try remaining within the context.

Quote:

Hebrews says He was tempted in all points as we are, yet with sin.

Yes, He never sinned, but He was tempted the same as we are - by indwelling iniquity.

Quote:

So I disagree with your assertion because Hebrews and James is being used incorrectly here.

Use Paul...he is clear

I am not quoting Paul with the Christ overcame Satan comment.

There is not one scripture in the Bible that states Christ had "indwelling iniquity". It is just not there Sonny.

I do not study the bible with just one "writer", God gave all of scripture for a reason.

If we need to support our view by "denying" the statements of some of Gods inspired writers, we are definitely in error.

[miz3]

That is my summation of everyones position so far.

Excellent job Twilight!

[Words edited by moderator. Members should not judge people's motives and write as if they can read people's minds and hearts.]

Another reason Sonny, John317, and others take this position is because they believe that it is was possible for Jesus Christ to sin. (this is a whole subject in itself and takes us away from our current discussion). This also links in their minds with the concept that God and Jesus Christ took a huge "risk" of failure and that the whole PLAN could have gone down the tube and Jesus Christ would have been Eternally LOST! In fact in their concept Salvation was achieved only by the barest and smallest of margins. (the Soap Opera theory).

Yet another reason for John317's and Sonny's position is to bring God closer to humanity. Otherwise to them it appears that God is too far away and not loving enough.

Thus, for them there is a whole lot wrapped up in this concept of whether or not Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I (at the Incarnation) or whether as you and I believe that Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature" from birth!

[miz3]

How did the Spirit of God, in Christ Jesus, set us free from the sin nature and the 2nd death in Christ?

AT THE CROSS SONNY, AT THE CROSS!

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

That is my summation of everyones position so far.

Excellent job Twilight!

[Words edited by moderator. Members should not judge people's motives and write as if they can read people's minds and hearts.]

Another reason Sonny, John317, and others take this position is because they believe that it is was possible for Jesus Christ to sin. (this is a whole subject in itself and takes us away from our current discussion). This also links in their minds with the concept that God and Jesus Christ took a huge "risk" of failure and that the whole PLAN could have gone down the tube and Jesus Christ would have been Eternally LOST! In fact in their concept Salvation was achieved only by the barest and smallest of margins. (the Soap Opera theory).

Yet another reason for John317's and Sonny's position is to bring God closer to humanity. Otherwise to them it appears that God is too far away and not loving enough.

Thus, for them there is a whole lot wrapped up in this concept of whether or not Jesus Christ had a "sinful nature" like you and I (at the Incarnation) or whether as you and I believe that Jesus Christ had a "sinless nature" from birth!

Just to clarify Miz3. :-)

I do believe that Christ could have sinned, because otherwise He would not have been tested through temptation.

If He could not have succumbed to temptation, then He could not really be tempted.

But the temptation Christ suffered was the same temptation that Adam had pre-fall.

He was tempted to accept Satans ideas and reject Gods.

He was not tempted to express His sinful nature, because He did not have one. But then neither did Adam pre-fall.

Christ had to show that man can overcome temptation, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If He was not tempted, then He was not tested and Satan would just say "not fair"... :-)

Mark

[miz3]

That's not what Paul states. Maybe elsewhere, but not in this context. Try remaining within the context.

Now that is interesting since I have had to correct your misuse of Scripture and Ellen White because kept taking them out of context and misusing them.

Surely you have NOT FORGOTTEN!

I believe you once again have the "contextual sock on the wrong foot"!

Oh! that's right the "contextual sock is on Sonny's foot!"

[miz3]

Yes, He never sinned, but He was tempted the same as we are - by indwelling iniquity.

The text does not say "by the indwelling iniquity".

That is an addition you are injecting into the text. You cannot add to Scripture! You must take Scripture as it is!

[Sonny]

No, it is what you are saying that Paul said I have an issue with.

Then let's use Paul and not get sidetracked with a one liner from John.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

No, it is what you are saying that Paul said I have an issue with.

Then let's use Paul and not get sidetracked with a one liner from John.

Should we ban Jesus as well?

What about James?

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

How did the Spirit of God, in Christ Jesus, set us free from the sin nature and the 2nd death in Christ?

AT THE CROSS SONNY, AT THE CROSS!

Did I ask where? Try reading before you answer. Can you do that?

[Sonny]

You state in one place that it is impossible that "sin" was placed on Christ at the cross.

But in another you state that "sin" was placed in Christ at His birth.

You make it so hard. It's like talking to a tree.

1] You are the sinner

2] You stand condemned under law

3] The law puts you in death row awaiting your execution.

4] The law demands your death.

5] You have to die.

In order for the law to be legally satisfied you have to die.

And you did "in Christ". See Romans 6:6/7:4

Since you are a sinner, indwelt with the sin nature, and since Christ took you into Himself, that means that as the Son of Man our sin nature was in Him because your humanity was there.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

When you believed the Holy Spirit, in the form of Christ, came to dwell in you. The Bible states this. Does that mean that the Holy Spirit has sin in Him because He dwells in your polluted humanity?

[No reply to my question] Mark :-)

Yes?

[Sonny]

He was not tempted to express His sinful nature, because He did not have one. But then neither did Adam pre-fall.

[Sonny]

Should we ban Jesus as well?

What about James?

Sorry, Jesus doesn't have a chapter. And James is good, but Paul was set aside for the gospel of Christ.

Paul makes up 53% of the NT. Romans & Galatians are some of the best books on the gospel. I can understand why you shy from those books....

[miz3]

Did I ask where? Try reading before you answer. Can you do that?

We are disputing that our sins were placed on Jesus Christ!

So your question is not relevant.

We are however disputing WHERE AND WHEN!

The CROSS SONNY, THE CROSS!

That is the answer to the "where" and the "when"!

[Sonny]

We are disputing that our sins were placed on Jesus Christ!

No, you are not telling the truth. Your response was to my question:

How did the Spirit of God, in Christ Jesus, set us free from the sin nature and the 2nd death in Christ?

Then you said, "So your question is not relevant"

Talking to both of you is like talking to a tree...or better yet, Sarah Palin and her one minute sound bits.

[Sonny]

That is the answer to the "where" and the "when"!

In order for you to die in Christ you had to be in Him before the cross. After all that's what condemned Christ.

Clearly Gal 4:4 links Christ's condemnation with when He united Himself to our life in the womb of Mary

4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law

[Sonny]

The CROSS SONNY, THE CROSS!

I too can play your game:

His being born of a woman, miz3....born of a woman! See Gal 4:4

[miz3]

Sonny,

No matter how big you make the type "being born of a woman" does NOT make Jesus Christ have a "sinful nature" like you and I.

Galatians 4:4 is a statement of fact that Mary birthed Jesus Christ. As we have further pointed out Matthew chapter one states that Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit and therefore was an Incubator/Surrogate person!

This is another case of you making great leaps by taking Scripture out of context and linking all these out of context points together and trying to make it Doctrine. In doing this you demonstrate a lack of interest in finding the real truth because your method of Bible Study is faulty.

[miz3]

In order for you to die in Christ you had to be in Him before the cross.

NO! Sonny that is not true. What you assert is not possible.

The only time such a thing could happen is on the CROSS!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

You state in one place that it is impossible that "sin" was placed on Christ at the cross.

But in another you state that "sin" was placed in Christ at His birth.

You make it so hard. It's like talking to a tree.

1] You are the sinner

2] You stand condemned under law

3] The law puts you in death row awaiting your execution.

4] The law demands your death.

5] You have to die.

In order for the law to be legally satisfied you have to die.

And you did "in Christ". See Romans 6:6/7:4

Since you are a sinner, indwelt with the sin nature, and since Christ took you into Himself, that means that as the Son of Man our sin nature was in Him because your humanity was there.

True.

sky

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

In order for you to die in Christ you had to be in Him before the cross.

NO! Sonny that is not true. What you assert is not possible.

The only time such a thing could happen is on the CROSS!

This is complete and utter nonsense.

In order for your humanity to be put into Christ, and thus Christ take the curse, your humanity had to be in Him before these things could take place.

Clearly according to Gal 4:4 our humanity was placed into Christ at His inception. If not, prove me wrong. Just stating that I'm wrong doesn't make it so with me.

[Twilight II]

Our humanity was not "put into Christ".

Christ clothed Himself with our physical post fallen body.

[Dr. Rich]

Again, NO sin was placed upon Christ. Michael, as the Angel of the Lord, became as a human being placed into Mary for Him to be born of a human. This is why He was called the son of man and the Son of God.

Jesus was not born of mankind in order to die for the sins of the world as many would like to believe. He testified Himself that the reason for Him being born was to testify to the truth, which are the words of the Father being given to man by the words of Jesus Christ. (John 18:37)

Yes, His death paid the penalty for the sin of Adam, or you and I would not be here today. For this He could not have any sin in Him since He represented the Passover Lamb which as spotless. His death was NOT the "Atonement" as Paul would want people to believe.

Michael, as Jesus Christ, was an Angel of the Lord, just as was Lucifier. Lulcifer did not have to have any sin in him to be tempted, and did not have to have any blood of humans in him to have their nature. It was the choice of Lucifer to sin. God sent Lucifer and his angels to this world to be the watcher over the humans. Lulcifer usurped God, therby making the whole world believe that he was their god.

Thereafter, God needed humans to testify truthfully who the real God, the God of Creation, to the whole world. He did this by creating Adam (and Eve) and placed them in a special Garden to protect them from the outside world of sin. Problem was, God could not keep out Satan (as Lucifer). Neither could or would God keep Satan out of the bible (New Testament).

God had to test Adam to see if he qualified to testify who the true God was. Adam failed and Michael stepped in and offered to pay the penalty AND to come to this earth to testify to who the real God is and how salvation works.

Now, Satan does NOT want people to know this [Words edited by moderator. Remember our agreement to keep attacks on Paul et al in the discussions devoted to that topic.]

By the way, ALL of this was prophesied by God a long time ago and it had to happen or God would have been called a liar. Satan had to be the sower of bad seeds (weeds) in the NT or that prophecy would have been false.