Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Your gospel does not teach you respect for others Sonny. That in itself is enough of a deterent for me... That's because he's missing the other part of the gospel - Christ IN the believer! And talk about judging. Just because I don't always act like you would have me act doesn't mean Christ isn't working in other areas. So, well, don't go there.... Anyway, let's get back to the subject. Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny YOU died 2000 years ago! "I die daily." 1 Cor 15:31 Yes, but that's not the gospel. That's the fruit of the gospel: Just as your humanity died in Christ (and Christ died once for all), now as a believer you are "to reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God." As Paul states, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me" This is the aim, but it's not the gospel. The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. He saved us...not by righteousness which we have done.... The foundation of your standing with God is based not on what God does in you as a believer, but what He did 2000 years ago. What He did 2000 years ago is called the imputed righteousness of Christ. This is what saves. What He does now, as best as we can surrender, is what is called the impart righteousness of Christ. This gives evidence that our faith in genuine. But here we must be careful not to judge. God knows the secrets of man's hearts.... Anyway, back to the subject. Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 Sonny admits that he will not accept the Truth as Twilight has stated it because of his Pride even though Sonny knows right well that Twilight is correct! Sonny admitted that his pride gets in the way because he knows the true gospel....The flesh likes to be right, too. But Sonny didn't admit that Twilight is correct on the gospel. Please do not tell lies, miz3. Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. That first part is the gospel, and the 2nd part is the fruit of the gospel. Notice, however, that He bore our sins IN HIS BODY. IT was indwelling sin that tempted Christ's mind to sin.... Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Paul: Rom 6:6 our old man (our life from Adam after the fall) was crucified with Him, that the body of sin [our humanity indwelt with sin] might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin.... Rom 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. All of this relates to the Cross Sonny. Not the incarnation. In order for you to be "in Christ" at the cross God had to place you in Him before that event. I do not agree. My sins (old man) were placed on Him as they were placed on the lamb in the sanctuary service. There is absolutely no need that I can see, that they had to be placed "in Him" at the incarnation. And as yet, the biblical evidence for this position is severeley lacking so far. Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 My sins (old man) were placed on Him as they were placed on the lamb in the sanctuary service. Those were types and symbols. The reality is Christ. To mix the two, well, you end up with a gospel that is mythical and riddled with holes. Your sins are not your "old man". Clearly YOU died in the body of Christ. Your humanity must die because it is permeated with iniquity. That life must come to an end and it did "in Christ" Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 There is absolutely no need that I can see, that they (sins) had to be placed "in Him" at the incarnation. You can't lay sins on anyone. It makes no sense. It's metaphoric - it means to be charged with sin. Christ took the curse....He was made sin. Your sins are an outward manifestation of the reality of what is inside. Paul called it, "sin living in me"...that is, "the law of sin" in the members of my body. The whole man is corrupted. Hence the whole man must die. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II It is a spirit of superiority. Okay, I'll admit it, my flesh was involved here....After all, the flesh loves to be right. So good point.... Nevertheless, I do think that I understand the gospel. I learned it the hard way.... Now I can see the Lord is working on your heart. :-) God bless you brother. :-) Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II The key issue here is this: When did Christ take the sins of the world into Himself? Two possible answers: A) Incarnation. The cross. Or add a third & 4th possibility C) Lamb slain srom the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8 D) Today - 1 Cor 15:31 I am not so sure about that Gerry, would you like to expand on that? Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Your gospel does not teach you respect for others Sonny. That in itself is enough of a deterent for me... That's because he's missing the other part of the gospel - Christ IN the believer! Is that correct Sonny? Do you not believe in the reality of Christ in you, the hope of glory, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 Is that correct Sonny? Do you not believe in the reality of Christ in you, the hope of glory, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Sure....That's the reception of what is already true of us in Christ.... Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Stop it....Paul doesn't say this. He says that when Christ died, you died. Paul says YOU died in the humanity of Christ. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Pe 2:24). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. That text had not come to mind, thank you for sharing that. Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 That text had not come to mind, thank you for sharing that. Keep in mind, "He himself bore our sins in his body" Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I have just read the last 24 posts between Twilight and Sonny. I found it very revealing. Sonny admits that he will not accept the Truth as Twilight has stated it because of his Pride even though Sonny knows right well that Twilight is correct! I did not read it that way miz3, I read it that Sonny accepted my admonishmnet on the tone of some of his posts. :-) Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo YOU died 2000 years ago! "I die daily." 1 Cor 15:31 Maybe both are true... :-) If we were truly dead to sin we wouldn't have to die daily. What happened in Christ was once and forever. That life died. Sunday morning Christ raised us up with a glorified humanity. We will receive this at the 2nd coming. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. That first part is the gospel, and the 2nd part is the fruit of the gospel. Notice, however, that He bore our sins IN HIS BODY. IT was indwelling sin that tempted Christ's mind to sin.... Yes, He did bear our sin in His body on the tree. But notice the timeline here Sonny. The only point in time this references is the cross. No mention of the incarnation here. Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 But notice the timeline here Sonny. The only point in time this references is the cross. Yes, and the context is talking about the justice of God's law.....That happened at the cross. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II My sins (old man) were placed on Him as they were placed on the lamb in the sanctuary service. Those were types and symbols. The reality is Christ. To mix the two, well, you end up with a gospel that is mythical and riddled with holes. Your sins are not your "old man". Clearly YOU died in the body of Christ. Your humanity must die because it is permeated with iniquity. That life must come to an end and it did "in Christ" The sanctuary service was given by God to teach us the Gospel. I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss it Sonny. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II There is absolutely no need that I can see, that they (sins) had to be placed "in Him" at the incarnation. You can't lay sins on anyone. It makes no sense. It's metaphoric - it means to be charged with sin. Christ took the curse....He was made sin. Your sins are an outward manifestation of the reality of what is inside. Paul called it, "sin living in me"...that is, "the law of sin" in the members of my body. The whole man is corrupted. Hence the whole man must die. My sins are an expression of my sinful inner nature Sonny. I think we are in agreement here. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Is that correct Sonny? Do you not believe in the reality of Christ in you, the hope of glory, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Sure....That's the reception of what is already true of us in Christ.... Thank you for the clarification. :-) Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Maybe both are true... :-) If we were truly dead to sin we wouldn't have to die daily. What happened in Christ was once and forever. That life died. Sunday morning Christ raised us up with a glorified humanity. We will receive this at the 2nd coming. We are only "crucified in Christ" as we "abide" in that truth by Faith Sonny. So whilst the old man was crucified on the Cross 2000 year ago, we have to receive that continually, moment by moment. Or another way of looking at it, is that we have to "remain" in that fact moment by moment. This is the very thing satan tries to disturb and to remove. Our abiding in Christ. Quote
Twilight II Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II But notice the timeline here Sonny. The only point in time this references is the cross. Yes, and the context is talking about the justice of God's law.....That happened at the cross. There is no mention of the incarnation here Sonny. Only the cross. Quote
miz3 Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Your sins are not your "old man". Clearly YOU died in the body of Christ. Your humanity must die because it is permeated with iniquity. That life must come to an end and it did "in Christ" No Sonny, it is not our humanity that God has trouble with. It is our "SIN". If our humanity had no sin then God would be OK with us. It is the "SIN" Sonny, the "SIN"! That is why our sin was placed on Christ at the CROSS! Quote
Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 That is why our sin was placed on Christ at the CROSS! Again, you can't physically lay sin on a person. Sin is an action and/or a thought. Let's say you are guilty of coveting. Let's also say someone can take your punishment, death. Coveting is a thought. How do you lay that sin on a person? Quote
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