Sonny Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 ...it is not our humanity that God has trouble with. It is our "SIN". Our humanity is permeated with the principle of "self". Even in the phrase "survival of the fittest" - an evolutionary principle - we can see the principle of unrestrained competition. Our very makeup is selfish & self-seeking. There's nothing good in our humanity. Ellen White: Through sin the whole human organism is deranged, the mind is perverted, the imagination corrupted. Sin has degraded the faculties of the soul. Temptations from without find an answering chord within the heart, and the feet turn imperceptibly toward evil. [MAR 91] Now, when it comes to Christ as the Son of God, His mind was never perverted because it was under the control of the Spirit of God from the moment of conception. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 That is why our sin was placed on Christ at the CROSS! Again, you can't physically lay sin on a person. Sin is an action and/or a thought. Let's say you are guilty of coveting. Let's also say someone can take your punishment, death. Coveting is a thought. How do you lay that sin on a person? Excellent point, Sonny. The only thing Jesus did was pay the penalty for our sins by His death, so we would not have to die eternally; He didn't pay this penalty so that we would have an excuse to keep on sinning. Each of us could pay our own penalty for our sins. No place in Scripture has it ever been said that we could not do this if we choose. Of course, we would be dead forever, and this is not usually considered to be a viable option. The Sanctuary Service as defined specifically in Leviticus is a metaphor for the process by which sin must be removed from the lives of those for whom the sacrifice is made. Most Christians today believe that they are saved by Jesus' death on the cross without having their sins completely removed from them, and this is just no so. I believe that the SDA church is the only church that has made it an institutional study to understand the significance of the Sanctuary Service and the process of removing and destroying sin. I do have one question for which in all the years of my study I have never found a satisfactory answer: that is, the sins of the camp of Israel were removed on the Day of Atonement through the sacrifice first of a bull for the High Priest and his family, then a ram for the Levites (priests), and then a goat for the people. These sins were removed from the horns of the Golden Altar of Incense in the Most Holy Place and placed on the 'goat of removal', that transported those sins back to where they originated-the wilderness. I can find nowhere that defines what happened to those 'forgiven' sins of the Kingdom of Heaven (at that time-Israel), OR what happened to the un-forgiven sins of the nations of the world that lived in the wilderness outside of the camp of Israel. This would be another good topic of study. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 30, 2011 Moderators Posted June 30, 2011 If we were truly dead to sin we wouldn't have to die daily. What happened in Christ was once and forever. That life died. Sunday morning Christ raised us up with a glorified humanity. We will receive this at the 2nd coming. If MY humanity died with Him 2000 yrs ago, I wouldn't to die now. Dying daily is sanctification, which goes on until Jesus comes because we are still living in this fallen body. Paul said - Reckon yourselves dead to sin but alive to God. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 30, 2011 Moderators Posted June 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 That is why our sin was placed on Christ at the CROSS! Again, you can't physically lay sin on a person. Sin is an action and/or a thought. Let's say you are guilty of coveting. Let's also say someone can take your punishment, death. Coveting is a thought. How do you lay that sin on a person? Same way God lays righteousness on a person - it is reckoned, counted on the other person. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted June 30, 2011 Moderators Posted June 30, 2011 Yes, but that's not the gospel. That's the fruit of the gospel: Just as your humanity died in Christ (and Christ died once for all), now as a believer you are "to reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God." As Paul states, "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me" This is the aim, but it's not the gospel. The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. He saved us...not by righteousness which we have done.... The foundation of your standing with God is based not on what God does in you as a believer, but what He did 2000 years ago. What He did 2000 years ago is called the imputed righteousness of Christ. This is what saves. And I say NO ONE can be saved without the imparted righteousness also! Separating the fruit from the tree does not make sense to me. The imparted righteousness of Christ is no less the work of God as the imputed righteousness. Quote: What He does now, as best as we can surrender, is what is called the impart righteousness of Christ. This gives evidence that our faith in genuine. But here we must be careful not to judge. God knows the secrets of man's hearts.... Anyway, back to the subject. Both kinds of righteousness are received by faith! Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Again, you can't physically lay sin on a person. Sin is an action and/or a thought. Let's say you are guilty of coveting. Let's also say someone can take your punishment, death. Coveting is a thought. How do you lay that sin on a person? It may be impossible in your mind but God still did it! Just like God did it when the Jew's sins were placed on the lamb in the OT! Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Our humanity is permeated with the principle of "self". Even in the phrase "survival of the fittest" - an evolutionary principle - we can see the principle of unrestrained competition. Our very makeup is selfish & self-seeking. There's nothing good in our humanity. Take away our "sinful nature" like Paul says in Romans chapter eight and replace it with the Spiritual nature (again Romans eight) and we will no longer sin! THAT IS PAUL! THAT IS THE GOSPEL! Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 The only thing Jesus did was pay the penalty for our sins by His death.... Again, that's unlawful. Jesus isn't the sinner. Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 If MY humanity died with Him 2000 yrs ago, I wouldn't [need] to die now. Hmmm? So your humanity didn't die 2000 years ago? Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Sonny, Jesus may have not been the sinner but the Bible is clear as clear can be that Jesus Christ payed the penalty for ALL OUR SINS! Why? BECAUSE GOD PLACED ALL THOSE SINS ON JESUS CHRIST! THE GOSPEL IS SIMPLE! IT IS ALSO BIBLICAL! Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 It may be impossible in your mind but God still did it! No, God did not lay sins on Christ. That's ridiculous. That's what happens when you act as if metaphors are reality. Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Same way God lays righteousness on a person - it is reckoned, counted on the other person. So God lies? He says Gerry is sinless before God's law when he is not? Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Take away our "sinful nature" like Paul says in Romans chapter eight and replace it with the Spiritual nature (again Romans eight) and we will no longer sin!THAT IS PAUL! THAT IS THE GOSPEL! You got to be kidding me? Are you saying that you no longer have a sinful nature? Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Jesus may have not been the sinner but the Bible is clear as clear can be that Jesus Christ payed the penalty for ALL OUR SINS! Yes, He did, but not according to your gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Your gospel is based in metaphors that you don't even understand. It's a confused gospel. It makes God Himself a law-breaker. Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 No, God did not lay sins on Christ. That's ridiculous. That's what happens when you act as if metaphors are reality. I beg to differ Sonny! That is what happens when you take the Bible as fact! You are the one who keeps saying this fact and that fact is a metaphor. NOT ME! I keep taking the Bible fact as fact! Why do keep wanting to change the Bible facts into metaphors? Could it be that you have no facts and so you are reduced to calling everything that does not agree with you and your complex contortions a metaphor! Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted By: miz3Take away our "sinful nature" like Paul says in Romans chapter eight and replace it with the Spiritual nature (again Romans eight) and we will no longer sin!THAT IS PAUL! THAT IS THE GOSPEL! You got to be kidding me? Are you saying that you no longer have a sinful nature? Now Sonny look at what I wrote and then look at what you wrote. What you wrote has nothing whatsoever to do with what I wrote. You keep saying I said something and that's not what I said. I didn't say that "I" had no sinful nature. Look at what I said. Read it carefully! You will see that what I said is far different than what you said I said! Is this too hard for you to grasp? You see this is your problem. You think to much in terms of metaphors. This is not difficult, if you just look at the FACTS! You are trying to make everything too complex by looking for metaphors, and hidden meanings and words behind the words. The Bible is not like that. The Bible is very open and clear. Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Yes, He did, but not according to your gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Your gospel is based in metaphors that you don't even understand. It's a confused gospel. It makes God Himself a law-breaker. I believe once again you have the shoe on the wrong foot. You are the one who is always dealing in metaphors, hidden meanings, words behind the words, etc. You are the one who makes the Gospel complex by your contortions, twists, and corporate salvation within cultural norms, etc. As for me: The Bible Gospel and my Gospel are one and the same because I follow the Bible. While you follow Jack S. Quote
miz3 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 No confusion on my part. Sonny follows Jack S.'s gospel. I follow the Gospel as written in the Bible. Sonny is always giving us Jack's web words to explain their gospel. Thus Sonny's confusion. I always use the Bible to explain the Biblical Gospel. I am never confused in this particular regard. I DO BELIEVE THERE IS QUITE A HUGE DIFFERENCE! Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 1, 2011 Moderators Posted July 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 The only thing Jesus did was pay the penalty for our sins by His death.... Again, that's unlawful. Jesus isn't the sinner. Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus could not do that? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 1, 2011 Moderators Posted July 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If MY humanity died with Him 2000 yrs ago, I wouldn't [need] to die now. Hmmm? So your humanity didn't die 2000 years ago? I died with Christ the moment I chose Him to be my Savior AND Lord. And I die with Him everyday as I reaffirm my choice everyday. And why choose 2000 yrs ago? The Lamb was slain "from the foundation of the world!" Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted July 1, 2011 Moderators Posted July 1, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Same way God lays righteousness on a person - it is reckoned, counted on the other person. So God lies? He says Gerry is sinless before God's law when he is not? He would be lying only if He calls me righteous WITHOUT ACCTUALLY MAKING ME RIGHTEOUS. That is what I have been trying to tell you for several years! He can't pronounce you righteous without ACTUALLY making you righteous. That's the OTHER part of the gospel that you keep ignoring! Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Is this too hard for you to grasp? yes, you are too hard to understand. It's nonsense...Again, that's how it comes off, no disrespect meant. Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 You are the one who is always dealing in metaphors, hidden meanings.... Look, if you don't understand what a metaphor is then everything you read will be reality to you. Quote
Sonny Posted July 1, 2011 Author Posted July 1, 2011 Where does it say in the Bible that Jesus could not do that? Jesus did do it lawfully, but the gospel presented by you and others is a gospel that has God bypassing His own law in order to save the fallen race. Quote
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