miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 But the Apostle Paul is. That's who he primarily quotes. I agree the Apostle Paul is an Authority. However, you and Jack S. are wrong because Paul never, ever says that Jesus Christ took our "sinful nature" at the Incarnation. You twist, add to, infer, inject erroneous facts, etc. to what Paul says. In fact you and Jack S. are constantly doing such things to the Word of God in order to prop up your failed theory. You misuse texts that have nothing to do with the Plan of Salvation, like Deuteronomy chapter 24. Then you add your own human interpretation to the text which God never intended to be added to the text. Then you deny the plain Word of God which does not uphold you unBiblical human theory and say prove the text says what it actually says. These are not the actions of honest Bible students! Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny But the Apostle Paul is. That's who he primarily quotes. I agree the Apostle Paul is an Authority. However, you and Jack S. are wrong because Paul never, ever says that Jesus Christ took our "sinful nature" at the Incarnation. You twist, add to, infer, inject erroneous facts, etc. to what Paul says. In fact you and Jack S. are constantly doing such things to the Word of God in order to prop up your failed theory. You misuse texts that have nothing to do with the Plan of Salvation, like Deuteronomy chapter 24. Then you add your own human interpretation to the text which God never intended to be added to the text. Then you deny the plain Word of God which does not uphold you unBiblical human theory and say prove the text says what it actually says. These are not the actions of honest Bible students! Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, (2) which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, (3) concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh (4) and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, Rom. 1:1-4. In v.3 Paul says that Jesus was not born as the Son of God, but as a natural son of David (implying natural conception), v.4 but was declared to be the Son of God AT THE RESURRECTION. In other words, Paul by his own words believe that Jesus was just a regular human being, naturally born of a human woman, who became the Son of God because He was resurrected from the dead by the power of the Holy Spirit. Now, you will of course refuse to believe what Paul said with his own words, and will choose to interpret what he said in the light of what you BELIEVE that he meant. But this would dishonest, and I know you are not dishonest. So look at this as dispassionately as you can and make your determination of what is true not based on your feelings but on the facts. Let me know what you come up with. I know this is very hard but you will find the truth if you search for it. Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Quote: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ."Romans 1:1-6. Verse three seems to be the part that you are aiming at. I have already covered this. Joseph was the only descendent of David who was a parent of Jesus Christ. Mary was a descendent of Levi and thus David would not be involved in her genealogy. Joseph however did NOT contribute any sperm to the conception. Mary also did not contribute any egg to the conception either. Matthew chapter one is quite explicit that Jesus Christ was conceived ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Therefore in regard to Jesus Christ being a descendent of David it would only be so on a LEGAL BASIS, and NOT ON A GENETIC BASIS! Paul is making sure that we know that Jesus Christ is fully human and Jesus Christ is also fully Divine! In doing this Paul is entirely correct! I know that you are trying to make Paul out to be a liar. This text does not do that. Paul is not saying that Jesus Christ was "legally flawed" or that Jesus Christ is "genetically flawed" in regard to Christ's inner nature. There are only two types of "inner natures". One is the Spiritual Nature! See Romans chapter eight for a description of what this is and how it works. Two is the sinful nature. Paul spends several chapters telling us how this sinful nature which you and I inherited from Adam's sin affects us. Jesus Christ had the Spiritual Nature right from the Incarnation. Yet he had a "fallen" "exterior" that could feel pain, suffer from the cold, be hungry, be thirsty, bleed from a cut, get tired, etc. just like you and I. Paul wants us to be clear that which of the only two natures existent we have, that Nature will rule as an absolute Master rules a slave. Paul also wants us to know that on the Cross Jesus Christ took all our "inner nature sinfulness" upon Himself because the Father placed it on Him as the Lamb of God. In other words Jesus Christ was our Substitute just as the lamb of OT was the substitute for the Jew in the OT Sanctuary. The OT Sanctuary illustrated what God actually did on the Cross. In doing this Romans chapter five states that Jesus Christ JUSTIFIED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE IN ONE FELL SWOOP! Unfortunately many humans REJECT this once and for all Finished Work of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ also supports this view in the Gospels. This is why John wrote the words of John 3:16. This is why Matthew wrote the words that Jesus Christ would "save" people from their sins. Of course those who REJECT THIS GOSPEL FROM GOD AND JESUS CHRIST will not be saved because they have by their REJECTION made themselves NOT THE SAVIOR'S PEOPLE! Again see Matthew who refers the saved as "His people". As a human entity Jesus Christ was the Son of God. Created by God (Holy Spirit)! By the way their is only ONE "SON OF MAN". Jesus Christ is the only "Son of Man". You and I are son of man! That is if you are a male. There is a difference. In fact the disciples, the people, the pharisees, etc. did not go around calling each other the "Son of Man"! This term than cannot be used to genetically or even legally link Jesus Christ to human conception or to human ancestry. No one else in the Bible is called the Son of Man! This is a reference to Jesus pure and holy inner nature! The bottom line is that the "eyewitnesses" and Paul preach the same Gospel! The Gospel in short is Jesus Christ came totally pure by conception of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ came for the sole purpose of paying humanity's sin in total. Jesus did this on the Cross. As such Jesus Christ freed us from our slavery to the "sinful nature" making us the Property of God. Again as such, God through the Holy Spirit begins the process of cleaning us up so that we are Perfect and in that Perfection reflect His Image and reflect His Law by full and complete obedience. We cannot accept what God does and what God is doing but we can REJECT IT AT ANY POINT ALONG THE WAY! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 4, 2011 Moderators Posted July 4, 2011 Mary was a descendent of Levi and thus David would not be involved in her genealogy. This is pure conjecture and is based on mistaken reasoning. It is based on the assumption that since Mary's cousin, Elizabeth, was of the house of Levi, it would mean that Mary also was of the house of Levi. But this is not necessarily true. Cousins are often not of the same tribe. All that it would require is that one of Elizabeht's parents married outside the tribe of Judah. There would have been nothing unusual about this. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 How does a human REJECT God and Jesus Christ? That's simple: JUST DISOBEY! That is stubbornly remain a slave to the "sinful nature". It is not hard to do this. What is hard is to remain calm and submissive to God and the Holy Spirit while they do their work in you. It is also hard to do the Commands of God such as: confess, repent, pray without ceasing, read the Word, Open the Door (Revelation), come to God and to Jesus Christ, etc. Why is it hard: One, we are used to obeying the "sinful nature" and we do not have a habit of obeying God and the Holy Spirit. Two, the "sinful nature" will die trying to prevent you from letting God kill that evil nature. Three, we tend to be very lazy about doing what God tells us to do and we only give it token lip service. Four, there are many outside pressures in the environment. Some are openly evil. Others are subtle and may even seem to spiritually from God. Thus, many are deceived. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 4, 2011 Moderators Posted July 4, 2011 Matthew chapter one is quite explicit that Jesus Christ was conceived ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Matthew is explicit that no man had been the Father of Christ but that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. That fact does not deny that Christ received his humanity from his mother, Mary. Christ must have received his humanity from His mother, since He didn't receive it from Joseph. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 This is pure conjecture and is based on mistaken reasoning. It is based on the assumption that since Mary's cousin, Elizabeth, was of the house of Levi, it would mean that Mary also was of the house of Levi. But this is not necessarily true. Cousins are often not of the same tribe. All that it would require is that one of Elizabeht's parents married outside the tribe of Judah. There would have been nothing unusual about this. You are correct about the conjecture. However my conjecture makes more sense than you conjecture on this matter. The most important point is that Matthew clearly states that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and only the Holy Spirit. Mary was an incubator/Surrogate. There is absolutely no Biblical evidence that any human genetic material was involved in the Incarnation. Matthew is quite clear and leaves no room for human stuff of any kind in the process. Outside the Bible there may be some conjecture but the Bible is quite clear that the Holy Spirit is the Only One involved in the actual conception of Jesus Christ. No other help was needed, required, or used. Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Therefore any connection Jesus Christ had to Joseph and Mary as parents is purely "legal" and NOT "genetic". As such the genealogies of either Joseph or Mary would be null and void from a "genetic" point of view. So you and I can "conjecture" all we like but it is a moot point! Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Matthew is explicit that no man had been the Father of Christ but that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. That fact does not deny that Christ received his humanity from his mother, Mary. Christ must have received his humanity from His mother, since He didn't receive it from Joseph. There is nothing in the Bible that states that Mary gave genetic material to Jesus Christ. Since nothing is there to say Mary contributed genetic material we cannot assume she did. The only position to honestly take is that she didn't. If she had given genetic material the Bible would have said so and the Bible clearly does NOT SAY SO! In fact the Bible clearly states that it was the Holy Spirit that conceived Jesus Christ. Nothing else is included in the conception statement. Jesus Christ received His humanity from the Holy Spirit. That is what Matthew chapter one states. God is not limited in that God had to use either Joseph or Mary to create any humanity of Jesus Christ. This is the God that spoke and everything came into being. God also spoke and by His Word made everything to produce in the exact manner He spoke. Thus, such a God can by any means He chooses make anything He chooses. That means God did not need Joseph or Mary's genetic material to conceive Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is clear: NO HUMAN GENETIC MATERIAL WAS USED IN THE INCARNATION OF JESUS CHRIST! That is Biblical Fact! No conjecture about this. Quote
Sonny Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny You said, "Deuteronomy chapter 24 was intended only for human to human issues. The Plan of Salvation is a Spiritual Issue and is also a God to human issue." Prove it! Enough small talk.... I did prove it but you crossed it out because you are rejecting the clear Word of God. You gave no Bible proof, just speculation. I'm still waiting.... Quote
Sonny Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny But the Apostle Paul is. That's who he primarily quotes. These are not the actions of honest Bible students! Ah, yes...if I were "an honest" Bible student I would agree with you, right? Again, that's manipulation on your part. Quote
Sonny Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Paul is making sure that we know that Jesus Christ is fully human and Jesus Christ is also fully Divine! In doing this Paul is entirely correct! Quote
Sonny Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Therefore any connection Jesus Christ had to Joseph and Mary as parents is purely "legal" and NOT "genetic". It's illegal and therefore a damnable lie! This concept of yours is wicked.... You have separated from Christ the very humanity He came to save. This is truly "another gospel". Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Quote: Originally Posted By: miz3 Quote: Originally Posted By: SonnyYou said, "Deuteronomy chapter 24 was intended only for human to human issues. The Plan of Salvation is a Spiritual Issue and is also a God to human issue." Prove it! Enough small talk.... I did prove it but you crossed it out because you are rejecting the clear Word of God. You gave no Bible proof, just speculation. I'm still waiting.... The proof is in the text (Deuteronomy 24:16) itself! Any honest Bible student can see that I am correct about this and that the text itself explains itself as I have shown! You just keep denying it because of you admitted Pride! Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Ah, yes...if I were "an honest" Bible student I would agree with you, right? The answer is YES! YES! YES! Why? Because I agree with the Bible as I have repeatedly shown you! No manipulation! Just Fact! Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Right, and there's only one type of human - the children of Adam after the fall indwelt with iniquity. The Bible states there are two types of humans. 1. Adam before the Fall. Jesus Christ was like this in His inner nature. Romans chapter eight calls this the Spiritual Nature. 2. Adam after the fall. This is you and me. Are you also saying that God is limited to making only one type of human? Are you saying that God could not have made Jesus Christ at the Incarnation any way God chose to make Him? Are you denying God's Eternal Power to do what to us is impossible? If that is your position then you are clearly not Biblical! Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Quote:Yet he had a "fallen" "exterior" that could feel pain, suffer from the cold, be hungry, be thirsty, bleed from a cut, get tired, etc. just like you and I. Paul never used such nonsensical words as you do. The four Gospels do! They tell how Jesus Christ was tired and slept in the boat. They tell how he was hungry and the fig tree had no fruit so Jesus Christ cursed it. Jesus at the well and on the Cross stated that He was thirsty. These are all attributes of a "fallen exterior". So my words are supported by the Bible. Are you , Sonny, becoming Dr. Rich inside/out by now only believing that Paul and his writings are inspired? Are you then rejecting the Gospels as truly Scripture? In addition Paul did use words like "sinful nature" to refer to our "inner self" (the governing part of humanity). Paul also used words like the Spiritual Nature as well. As such are you now inferring that even Paul used "nonsensical words"? It is clear and unambiguous that Paul and the Bible speak of humanity in two ways. Humanity's outer parts that thirst, get tired, are hungry, sweat in the heat, shiver in the cold, etc. and humanity's inner part, which Paul calls the "sinful nature". This "inner part" is what controls the human entity! Paul, the Gospels, and the whole Bible state this is true. See Paul's writings and the Gospel incidents cited above. That is lock cinch proof! Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 You can't be truly a son of mankind unless you are one of us. Not True! God did indeed make Adam in the beginning sinless. He was fully and completely human then and clearly was "NOT ONE OF US" in regard to fallen beings! Besides the Bible does not say "son of mankind" it expressly states that Jesus Christ was the Son of Man. Being the Son of Man is totally and completely different from being the "son of mankind". They are two different things. The difference between the two phrases is so obvious to even the least informed. Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 I can't find this repeated nonsense in the Bible I don't see how you could have missed it. I have repeatedly pointed out text after text. I have used Paul, the Gospels, and even the Old Testament to demonstrate the Truth you call nonsense. Do you think the Bible is nonsense or is it your admitted Pride that keeps getting in the way? Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 This is absurd! If this is the case God should have just created Jesus out of the dust of the ground (as He did Adam) and skipped Mary. It's not absurd! God could have done just what you said. However, God chose to do it this way. God can do anything! Have you not read in the Gospels where Jesus Christ, Himself, states that "nothing is Impossible with God"? Thus, it is not absurd for God to create Jesus Christ fully and completely without any other help by conceiving the Christ by the Holy Spirit alone and using Mary as an incubator/surrogate. Are you limiting God when Jesus Christ, Himself, stated that "nothing is impossible with God"? You would have go against Scripture Sonny! Is that what you position is now to go against Scripture? One has to wonder when you keep calling Scriptural Concepts and the plain Word of God "absurd". Quote
miz3 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 It's illegal and therefore a damnable lie! This concept of yours is wicked.... You have separated from Christ the very humanity He came to save. This is truly "another gospel". Are you stating that God is illegal? It is not "my concept" Sonny it the Bible's Concept! Are you stating that God and the Bible are engaged in illegal or sinful activity? The Bible is very clear in Matthew chapter one that the Holy Spirit is the Only One involved in the conception that took place at the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. The Bible makes no other reference to anything else being involved in the conception of Jesus Christ. The Bible clearly states that the Holy Spirit would "overshadow Mary" and that means Mary would only be an Incubator/Surrogate. You are correct that humanity was separated from Jesus Christ and from God. That is precisely why Jesus Christ came. However the breach between God/Jesus Christ and humanity was NOT HEALED AT THE INCARNATION! Paul himself states that Jesus came to remove that separation at the Cross! Paul states that the Cross is the Central Doctrine of the Bible, not the incarnation. The breach between God/Jesus Christ was HEALED AT THE CROSS! ONLY THE CROSS! It was only at the Cross where our sins were placed on Jesus Christ and Jesus suffered our penalty. THE CROSS! THE CROSS! The Cross is the very CENTER OF THE GOSPEL! Your theory (Jack S.) wants to make the Incarnation the center of everything and that is not Biblical! You Sonny are the one offering absurd and unBiblical theories and fantasies. The wickedness of your unBiblical theory can not be overestimated because it is based on your twisted, contorted, convoluted unBiblical heresy of logic. It is NOT based on the Bible as we have clearly shown! It is unfortunate that human pride takes precedence over Truth especially when one admits publicly that this is so! Quote
Sonny Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Again, you have separated from Christ the very humanity He came to save. This is truly "another gospel". Quote
Sonny Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 The humanity of Christ Here's a portion: At His birth, God united the divinity of Christ with our corporate humanity that needed redeeming. This made Christ one with us so that He could rewrite our history and change our status and destiny from that of condemnation to death, which we inherited from Adam, to justification to life Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Matthew chapter one is quite explicit that Jesus Christ was conceived ONLY BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Matthew is explicit that no man had been the Father of Christ but that Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit. That fact does not deny that Christ received his humanity from his mother, Mary. Christ must have received his humanity from His mother, since He didn't receive it from Joseph. From whom did Adam receive his humanity? Quote
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