"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Sonny]

God put us into Christ though Mary. If not, when?

Yes?

[miz3]

Yes, and in the Word of God we are told that our humanity died in the body of Christ. So how did it get into Christ? Paul's answer: "Born of a woman, born under the law".

God put us into Christ though Mary. If not, when?

That text does not say that "humanity was put into Christ"!

You are adding things to the text!

The text merely states that Mary birthed Jesus Christ! That's it. There is only one fact there and that fact is that Mary birthed Jesus Christ.

The text does not say that humanity was placed inside Christ. Adding to the Word is what happens when you follow the gospel according to Jack S. instead of following the Gospel according to the Scripture!

[miz3]

It must be very hard on you to try so hard to get some of us to believe your concepts (based on Paul) of the truth and have us not respond positively to your ministry.

It is not hard because I only quote the Scripture for my position. I even quoted your Authority which you do not consistently adhere to.

It is not up to me to convince you of anything. I am only testifying to the Truth. The Holy Spirit is the One with the job of Conviction. You will have to deal with the Holy Spirit on that matter.

My job is to share what God has been pleased to share with me and to point out when error is evident. That is it!

So once again you err as to what is actually happening just as you err in regard to Scripture!

[John317]

The Bible, especially Paul, includes OUR HUMANITY in the body of Christ.

....So, what type of humanity did Christ have in Him? Our humanity!

Yes, true. And if this humanity was in Him at the cross, it was in Him from the conception. It couldn't have occurred only at the cross. His humanity and deity didn't undergo a change at the cross. It was at conception or it never happened.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

The Bible, especially Paul, includes OUR HUMANITY in the body of Christ.

....So, what type of humanity did Christ have in Him? Our humanity!

Yes, true. And if this humanity was in Him at the cross, it was in Him from the conception. It couldn't have occurred only at the cross. His humanity and deity didn't undergo a change at the cross. It was at conception or it never happened.

Excellent! Yes, you are absolutely right....

[Sonny]

That text does not say that "humanity was put into Christ"!

If not, when?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: miz3

That text does not say that "humanity was put into Christ"!

If not, when?

I see strong evidence that our humanity was in Him and on Him during His temptations in the wilderness as well as in the Garden.

Check out this clear quote:

Quote:

Angels came and ministered to our Lord in the wilderness of temptation. Heavenly angels were with Him during all the period in which He was exposed to the assaults of satanic agencies. These assaults were more severe than man has ever passed through. Everything was at stake in behalf of the human family. In this conflict Christ did not frame His words even. He depended upon "It is written" (Matthew 4:4). In this conflict the humanity of Christ was taxed as none of us will ever know. The Prince of life and the prince of darkness met in terrible conflict, but Satan was unable to gain the least advantage in word or in action. These were real temptations, no pretense. Christ "suffered being tempted" (Hebrews 2:18). Angels of heaven were on the scene on that occasion, and kept the standard uplifted, that Satan should not exceed his bounds and overpower the human nature of Christ. {1SM 94, 95}

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

The Bible, especially Paul, includes OUR HUMANITY in the body of Christ.

....So, what type of humanity did Christ have in Him? Our humanity!

Yes, true. And if this humanity was in Him at the cross, it was in Him from the conception. It couldn't have occurred only at the cross. His humanity and deity didn't undergo a change at the cross. It was at conception or it never happened.

These texts do not mention the term "humanity"...

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

If not' date=' when?

I see strong evidence that our humanity was in Him and on Him during His temptations in the wilderness as well as in the Garden.

Check out this clear quote:

Quote:

Angels came and ministered to our Lord in the wilderness of temptation. Heavenly angels were with Him during all the period in which He was exposed to the assaults of satanic agencies. These assaults were more severe than man has ever passed through. Everything was at stake in behalf of the human family. In this conflict Christ did not frame His words even. He depended upon "It is written" (Matthew 4:4). In this conflict the humanity of Christ was taxed as none of us will ever know. The Prince of life and the prince of darkness met in terrible conflict, but Satan was unable to gain the least advantage in word or in action. These were real temptations, no pretense. Christ "suffered being tempted" (Hebrews 2:18). Angels of heaven were on the scene on that occasion, and kept the standard uplifted, that Satan should not exceed his bounds and overpower the human nature of Christ. {1SM 94, 95}[/quote']

I think you are confusing humanity with inherent sin John317.

I do not find that connection in the scripture.

[miz3]

Thank you Twilight! You are correct Scripture is quite plain that our sins were placed on Jesus Christ ONLY AT THE CROSS!

THAT IS WHEN! Sonny. The Cross!

[Sonny]

These texts do not mention the term "humanity"...

Let's stop the games, okay? Since YOU died in the body of Christ then YOUR humanity died in Him.

[Sonny]

THAT IS WHEN! Sonny. The Cross!

So God placed YOU into Christ at the cross? Verse please!

[miz3]

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation."

Romans 5:6-11.

Verse nine states that we were Justified by His blood! When at the Cross. No blood at the Incarnation.

Verse ten "we were reconciled to Him (God) through the death of His Son". Again, at the Cross! NOT THE INCARNATION!

The only way we could be reconciled to God is if Jesus Christ took our sins. Paul says that reconciliation happened at the Cross, NOT THE INCARNATION!

Also:

"Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Romans 5:18.

What was that "one act" Sonny? IT WAS THE CROSS!

Sorry no Incarnation here at all. NIL! NADA! NOTHING!

[miz3]

There is more Sonny!

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God."

Romans 6:1-10.

Verse two says "we died to sin" when is Paul saying we died to sin. On the Cross, Sonny!

Verse three when were baptized and died when Jesus Christ is on the Cross! NO INCARNATION HERE!

Romans chapter six verse five explicitly states that we were "united with Christ at His death"! When was the death, Sonny?

At the Cross, Sonny, the Cross! NOT AT THE INCARNATION!

YOU CANNOT GET MORE EXPLICIT THAN THAT! PAUL STATES IT FLAT OUT!

Verse six also makes a clear flat statement that we (our old self) was crucified with Christ so that the body of sin could be done away with! When at the Cross, Sonny, the Cross!

Verse eight states flat out again that we died with Christ on the Cross! Again no INCARNATION HERE AT ALL!

Verse ten states that the death Christ died He died for all! When Sonny? AT THE CROSS! NOT THE INCARNATION.

In fact every single time Paul shows us united with Christ it is at the Cross! Paul never ever unites us with Christ at the INCARNATION.

If it was at the Incarnation Paul would have EXPLICITLY SAID SO!

However Paul never says so!

[miz3]

Sonny,

I went through quit a chunk of Romans chapter five and Romans chapter six. In all that Scripture over and over again Paul mentions only that we were united with Christ at the Cross and only at the Cross. The Biblical statements by Paul were in fact quite explicit and clear!

No inferences, no logic, no twists, no contortions, no human innuendos, no Jack S., no nothing except the CLEAR UNAMBIGUOUS UNTOUCHED WORD OF GOD IN THE PLAINEST AND SIMPLEST LANGUAGE SO THAT A CHILD COULD UNDERSTAND!

[miz3]

Sonny,

In all those Biblical references there was not even a scintilla of a hint that any of that happened at the Incarnation!

In fact the Incarnation was no where to be found in any of those Scriptures.

This proves that Paul and I are preaching the same Gospel!

[Sonny]

Sorry no Incarnation here at all. NIL! NADA! NOTHING!

When did God put you into Christ? It was before the cross.

[Sonny]

Romans chapter six verse five explicitly states that we were "united with Christ at His death"! When was the death, Sonny?

Here's what it says: "If we have been united with him like this in his death...."

Why the "if"?

Verse 3: "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death...."

Baptism is a symbol of dying in Christ. So if we have been baptized "we have been untied with him like this in his death".

Once again you are taking liberties. You are taking Paul out of context. Clearly God literally put us into Christ before the cross.

[Twilight II]

Sonny,

I went through quit a chunk of Romans chapter five and Romans chapter six. In all that Scripture over and over again Paul mentions only that we were united with Christ at the Cross and only at the Cross. The Biblical statements by Paul were in fact quite explicit and clear!

No inferences, no logic, no twists, no contortions, no human innuendos, no Jack S., no nothing except the CLEAR UNAMBIGUOUS UNTOUCHED WORD OF GOD IN THE PLAINEST AND SIMPLEST LANGUAGE SO THAT A CHILD COULD UNDERSTAND!

Adventists understand that our sins were layed on Christ at the cross.

But some are confused because they think that Christ also took our sins at the incarnation.

Like you say Miz3, the bible does not state that.

But rather that Christ took our human flesh and blood upon Himself.

There is no statement in the bible whatsoever to imply that Christ took our sins upon Himself at the incarnation.

If such a truth were to be known by us, surely there would be ONE explicit statement in the bible at least to show this fact.

That has not been presented at all though.

What has been presented are text that talk about Christ taking our human body, post fallen.

Then there is an "extrapolation" that scripture does not supply, that there was "sin" in that body.

The official position of the church is that Christ came with a post fallen body, but it had no sin in it.

I do not think many realise this is the position we hold as they present something else.

[Twilight II]

If Christ did indeed take our sin upon Himself at the incarnation, then we should have that plain simple truth shown to us.

But the texts dealing with Him having a human body, post fallen is what keeps getting presented.

So the question is this:

Why is there no "explicit" statement in the Bible to show that Christ took our sins upon Himself at the Incarnation?

[Twilight II]

And if He did take our sins on Himself at the Incarnation, why did He then need to take them upon Himself again at the Cross?

[Sonny]

And if He did take our sins on Himself at the Incarnation, why did He then need to take them upon Himself again at the Cross?

I feel like I'm dealing with children. How many times do I have to repeat myself so that you get it?

Forget "our sins"....Romans 6:6/7:4 doesn't say that God did away with "our sins" on the cross. Paul tells believers that God did away with our humanity on the cross:

"you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

Who is this "you"? Who is Paul writing to? "So, my brothers"....Paul was writing to the believers in Roman sometime after the cross. Believers, the last time I checked, are humans indwelt with sin (the sin nature). Paul says that our humanity died in Christ.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

And if He did take our sins on Himself at the Incarnation, why did He then need to take them upon Himself again at the Cross?

I feel like I'm dealing with children. How many times do I have to repeat myself so that you get it?

Be careful that it is not you that is the "child" Sonny, thinking you are an "adult" addressing the "children".

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat something with no solid scriptural basis, it will not be accepted until you give it the support it needs.

If you have light that is scriptural I will accept it.

But if you throw a tantrum (like you have here), when someone does not accept your view, then how can anyone take you seriously?

[miz3]

When did God put you into Christ? It was before the cross.

You say that! However, I just showed you from Romans chapter five and chapter six that Paul says different than you do. Paul says it happened AT THE CROSS!

Your admitted pride must be awful powerful to get you to deny the clear plain Word of God of Romans chapter five and chapter six.

[miz3]

Here's what it says: "If we have been united with him like this in his death...."

Why the "if"?

Verse 3: "all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death...."

Baptism is a symbol of dying in Christ. So if we have been baptized "we have been untied with him like this in his death".

Once again you are taking liberties. You are taking Paul out of context. Clearly God literally put us into Christ before the cross.

It is obvious that you are the one taking things out of context and you are the one taking liberties!

I quoted the whole passage you are the only take part of the verse! That is not context!

The "if" is not a doubt or a hypothetical. Once again you take things out of context. Paul use the IF word because he has already established the fact! Thus, the word "if" means "since" in its proper context.

You are playing games Sonny and your admitted pride is what is causing you to this in the face Paul's clear statements that we were in Christ on the Cross! Again, NO INCARNATION HERE!