Sonny Posted July 12, 2011 Author Posted July 12, 2011 Your game playing Sonny. Answer post 460086....Otherwise please don't waste my time. Quote
Sonny Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 Born under the law, means that Christ was born under and judged by the same Law we are judged by. Mark :-) And the law tells you that you are a sinner under the curse. Even if you lived Christ's life from this point forward (and remember there was no love of self in His life) that wouldn't cancel the sins of your past. So to be under law means that you had it! Now go to Gal 4:4 But when the completion of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, Christ came to save those under the law. Why would Christ need to save folks from the law? Go to Gal 3:22... the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before Christ came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. Christ came to save you from under the law. Why? You are a sinner, even now. You fall short of God's agape love. If you don't think you do I'll be happy to give you a quiz to see if you are measuring up to Christ's life. Quote
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Sonny, The Cross! The Cross! NOT THE INCARNATION! Quote
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 And the law tells you that you are a sinner under the curse. Even if you lived Christ's life from this point forward (and remember there was no love of self in His life) that wouldn't cancel the sins of your past. So to be under law means that you had it! Now go to Gal 4:4. THE CROSS, SONNY! NOT THE INCARNATION! You do a lot of inferring then take Scripture out of context in order to bolster argument. That is not what Godly Bible Students do. Godly Bible students don't do that because it is not honest for Godly Bible Students do the things you do Sonny! Quote
Sonny Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 Sonny, The Cross! The Cross! NOT THE INCARNATION! The cross is where the justice of the law was satisfied. From His birth to the cross is where the obedience of the law was satisfied. From the cross to the resurrection is where Christ satisfied the perfection of humanity that the law requires.. This is the full & complete gospel, not 1/3 of it. Quote
miz3 Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The cross is where the justice of the law was satisfied. From His birth to the cross is where the obedience of the law was satisfied. From the cross to the resurrection is where Christ satisfied the perfection of humanity that the law requires.. This is the full & complete gospel, not 1/3 of it. This quote above is not where the dispute is Sonny. The problem with your phoney gospel is that you try and put sinful humanity or sinful something into Jesus Christ at the Incarnation. This phoney assertion of yours is simply NOT TRUE! This phoney assertion of yours is simply NOT BIBLICAL! The TRUE FACT IS THAT THE CROSS IS WHERE ALL THIS HAPPENED! The TRUE GOSPEL STATES THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS "MADE SIN FOR US" AT THE CROSS! NOT BEFORE THE CROSS! Quote
Sonny Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. There's nothing in the above context that states He was "made sin" at the cross. John 1:4 The Word became flesh (became human) and made his dwelling among us. Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity Christ didn't all of a sudden become flesh (human) at the cross. He was made human at the incarnation. He was born of a woman and since He took our humanity, under the curse, He was born under the law. Quote
Sonny Posted July 13, 2011 Author Posted July 13, 2011 The problem with your phoney gospel is that you try and put sinful humanity....into Jesus Christ at the Incarnation. Show me where YOU were put into Christ at the cross. It's nonsense. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 It isn't that God placed the sins of humanity upon Christ at the cross but that God allowed Christ to experience what it was like to carry all the sins of humanity alone, apart from God. He experienced God's wrath or anger against sin. At the cross, then, God abandoned Christ to the consequences of sin. Yet Christ was no different at the cross than He had been since His conception. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Twilight II Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Born under the law, means that Christ was born under and judged by the same Law we are judged by. Mark :-) And the law tells you that you are a sinner under the curse. Even if you lived Christ's life from this point forward (and remember there was no love of self in His life) that wouldn't cancel the sins of your past. So to be under law means that you had it! Now go to Gal 4:4 But when the completion of the time came, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, Christ came to save those under the law. Why would Christ need to save folks from the law? Go to Gal 3:22... the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before Christ came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. Christ came to save you from under the law. Why? You are a sinner, even now. You fall short of God's agape love. If you don't think you do I'll be happy to give you a quiz to see if you are measuring up to Christ's life. Christ met the claims of the Law by being obedient. Not by being a "sinner". We are "sinful" and judged sinful because we have that propensity to sin that we cannot fight, we are inclined to sin and we DO sin, because we are by nature sinful. You are arguing Christ was a "sinner", because He had our "sin" in Him from conception. I do not think you understand the ramifications of your own argument. Quote
Twilight II Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 The TRUE GOSPEL STATES THAT JESUS CHRIST WAS "MADE SIN FOR US" AT THE CROSS! NOT BEFORE THE CROSS! This is the fundamental point. There is no biblical support for the idea that Christ was made "sin for us" at the incarnation. Quote
Twilight II Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. There's nothing in the above context that states He was "made sin" at the cross. John 1:4 The Word became flesh (became human) and made his dwelling among us. Heb 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity Christ didn't all of a sudden become flesh (human) at the cross. He was made human at the incarnation. He was born of a woman and since He took our humanity, under the curse, He was born under the law. Quote
Twilight II Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 It isn't that God placed the sins of humanity upon Christ at the cross but that God allowed Christ to experience what it was like to carry all the sins of humanity alone, apart from God. He experienced God's wrath or anger against sin. At the cross, then, God abandoned Christ to the consequences of sin. Yet Christ was no different at the cross than He had been since His conception. In the sanctuary service the sins were placed on the lamb at the point of sacrifice. That object lesson was very clear and simple. The sins were taken from the sinner and placed on the lamb. The sinner was cleansed. The lamb was punished for the sin. I think your post shows John317, that we have to perform some mental gymnastics to place the sins of humanity "in Christ" at the incarnation. In fact, we now have to have a lamb where the sin was placed on it at birth... Unnecessary mental gymnastics in my view, that negate the simple gospel message of the sin being transferred at the sacrifice. :-) Quote
Twilight II Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 And that is the key point for me. The only place where the sin is explicitly placed on the lamb in the sanctuary service was just prior to the sacrifice of the lamb, literally just before the sacrifice. The Lamb was brought to the alter and had the sins of the sinner placed on it. Then it was slain there. Christ was brought to the alter and had the sins of the sinner placed on Him. Then He was slain there. With that simple object lesson, it soon becomes clear that insisting that Christ had the sins of humanity placed on Him at birth is incorrect. Quote
Sonny Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Christ was fully human, He had the post fallen body of humanity. But He did not have "sin" in that body. All humans have in them indwelling sin. Christ took that into Himself & in so doing redeemed humanity. Quote
Sonny Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Your gospel is based in metaphors & symbols. Then you take these and try to make them a reality. The result? Nonsense. Quote
Sonny Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 You are arguing Christ was a "sinner", because He had our "sin" in Him from conception. I do not think you understand the ramifications of your own argument. In other words because Christ, at the incarnation, took our humanity into Himself (a humanity indwelt with our bent to self) that made Christ a sinner? Question: Is the Holy Spirit a sinner for dwelling in you? After all the Holy Spirit resides in YOU, Twilight, and you have in your humanity the sin nature. Doesn't that make the Holy Spirit a sinner according to your own theology? Quote
Sonny Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person—the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible. .... Notice that the Son of God's nature wasn't changed into the human nature of the Son of Mary. Christ remained God! At the incarnation to took into Himself OUR fallen humanity indwelt with iniquity. It wasn't His humanity, it was ours.... Quote
Sonny Posted July 14, 2011 Author Posted July 14, 2011 Christ met the claims of the Law by being obedient. That's good for Christ, but it doesn't save me from under a law that condemns me. Besides, the law requires my obedience - not Christ's. # 1 Let's say I get a speeding ticket (100MPH in a 35MPH zone). # 2 Let's say we have another person who never speeds. How can the perfect person (# 2) be punished for something I did (person # 1)? No law will permit that...especially God's law. "The person who sins must die" Quote
Twilight II Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Christ was fully human, He had the post fallen body of humanity. But He did not have "sin" in that body. All humans have in them indwelling sin. Christ took that into Himself & in so doing redeemed humanity. I know you believe this Sonny, but you have not been able to show that from the Bible. Stating it over and over does not make it true. Christ took on human nature, but had "no sin in Him". The bible is quite clear on these two points, as has been shown. But the idea that Christ had our propensities to sin is not in the scripture or the SOP, in fact the very opposite is true. Quote
Twilight II Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Your gospel is based in metaphors & symbols. Then you take these and try to make them a reality. The result? Nonsense. God has taught us spiritual truths using object lessons. Those lessons teach spiritual truths. To dismiss them is to dismiss Gods method of teaching. Quote
Twilight II Posted July 14, 2011 Posted July 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II You are arguing Christ was a "sinner", because He had our "sin" in Him from conception. I do not think you understand the ramifications of your own argument. In other words because Christ, at the incarnation, took our humanity into Himself (a humanity indwelt with our bent to self) that made Christ a sinner? Question: Is the Holy Spirit a sinner for dwelling in you? After all the Holy Spirit resides in YOU, Twilight, and you have in your humanity the sin nature. Doesn't that make the Holy Spirit a sinner according to your own theology? You are back here to your need to have "Two Christs" Sonny. One human with our sin in Him (making Him a sinner). One divine with no sin. It is the only way you can reconcile two obvious contradictions. 1. Christ was sinful. 2. Christ was not sinful. Because of these two opposing beliefs, you have to suspend logic, reason and the bible and pursue a teaching that requires a contradiction to be accepted/ignored. That contradiction should tell you that there is indeed something very wrong with your theology. It is like saying. 1. I need to keep the Sabbath. 2. I do not need to keep the Sabbath. Therefore I will do both... And if someone does not accept this logical contradiction and presents a biblicaly sound argument, you ignore the inconsistencies in your own argument and label everyone elses as "nonsense". "Nonsense" is something that "makes no sense". And in this instance, your desire to have Christ "sinless" and "sinful" at the same time "makes no sense". Therefore it is indeed "nonsense". Mark :-) Quote
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