"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[John317]

The believer's nature is alive and well. As the believer walks in the Spirit then the Spirit of God can override that nature.

Yes, and if we don't realize this, we will be doomed to obey our sinful nature. Our sinful nature and its desires is what makes it necessary to stay close to Christ, allowing Him to control us. Otherwise our sinful nature will control us.

Our sinfufl nature is like a corpse in the casket just waiting for a little food and water so he can raise back up and take control of us. Too often we feed that corpse, "the old man," and in this way keep him breathing.

[miz3]

Maybe the "corpse" was never dead which is why it keeps rising again?

[John317]

Since you believe people aren't free moral agents, what can a person do if the "old man" keeps rising to be fed?

What would you suggest? Do you have a choice?

On Adventist Forum, I've seen a lot of "old men" rising and taking control of people.

Do you have success keeping your "old man" in the casket? What's your secret?

[John317]

I've heard of people being buried alive.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts.

Do you agree with this^^ Sonny?

Not your interpretation. You are trying to spin this to say that the believer's nature is dead. The believer's nature is alive and well. As the believer walks in the Spirit then the Spirit of God can override that nature.

This is one of those very plain statements Sonny.

It means what it says.

When we have to try to make it mean something else, it means we do not understand what is being said in the text.

It is a very plain statement Sonny:

They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts.

Means:

They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

They that are Christs have "crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts".

That means their "lusts and desires" have been put to death "In Christ".

A Christian has to face up to the fact that he has lusts and desires in themselves.

But then they will also go on to learn how to put those lusts and desires to death by faith in Christ.

As we fix our eyes on Christ and remain fixed on Him, we can receive this promise that those lusts and desires have been put to death.

But only as we abide in Christ.

I agree completely with you. But how is that contradicted or out of harmony with the teaching that Christ assumed our sinful human nature?

In fact, I see Christ's having the same sinful flesh that we have as necessary for us to overcome like He did. He is our model in resisting and overcoming sin. He did it by His Father's power and so can we. This is clearly what Ellen White taught. I believe her teachings on this are in line with the Bible.

Having the same human body (flesh-sarx), as Christ is what Ellen White taught.

I agree with that, as it agrees with the Bible.

But the point is this, through the grace of Christ we can "put to death" the lusts and desires of the flesh.

But many do not enter into this experience because they think the "lusts and desires" will always be there.

The misunderstanding of Christ's nature affects this truth.

Because we "expect" to have the lusts and desires remain in us, because we mistakenly believe that was Christ's experience, we never step by faith in the total victory that Christ wants to give us.

God will put to death the lusts and desires.

But many SDA's cannot believe this, because they think that is impossible and therefore never get true victory over sin.

Mark :-)

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

The believer's nature is alive and well. As the believer walks in the Spirit then the Spirit of God can override that nature.

Yes, and if we don't realize this, we will be doomed to obey our sinful nature. Our sinful nature and its desires is what makes it necessary to stay close to Christ, allowing Him to control us. Otherwise our sinful nature will control us.

Our sinfufl nature is like a corpse in the casket just waiting for a little food and water so he can raise back up and take control of us. Too often we feed that corpse, "the old man," and in this way keep him breathing.

The problem is John317, is that we treat the "flesh" like some half dead being.

Whereas the bible teaches us that in Christ it is dead.

But we do not believe that, because although we mentally assent to the fact it is dead in Christ, we actually then teach it is very much alive still.

That is the contradiction that arises out of trying to have Christ both "sinful" and "sinless" at the same time.

This error affects our victory over sin.

[John317]

Because we "expect" to have the lusts and desires remain in us, because we mistakenly believe that was Christ's experience,

No, Christ did not have sinful lusts and desires.

All fallen humans have sinful lusts because we have practiced sin. Christ never did. Christ's mind was never touched by sin. Ours has been.

Christ's desires never conceived and therefore never gave birth to sin. (See James 1: 13-15)

If we don't continually give ourselves over to Christ, we will have lusts and wrong desires, and these will be able to control us.

Believers can go back to their sinful lusts and desires any time we choose to. Our sinful nature will always be there until Christ returns and gives us new bodies.

[John317]

... we treat the "flesh" like some half dead being.

Whereas the bible teaches us that in Christ it is dead.

But we do not believe that, because although we mentally assent to the fact it is dead in Christ, we actually then teach it is very much alive still.

That is the contradiction that arises out of trying to have Christ both "sinful" and "sinless" at the same time.

This error affects our victory over sin.

Could you please say more about this?

Is your flesh totally dead so that you don't even hear a peep out of it?

Since you died with Christ in baptism, are you saying that your flesh has been completely dead and unresponsive?

I have never said that Christ was sinful. Christ was totally sinless. Christ lived a sinless life-- absolutely faithful to His Father-- in sinful flesh. That is different from saying Christ was sinful. To say Christ was sinful is the same as saying Christ committed sin.

[Sonny]

It means what it says.

So, let me get this straight, the believer doesn't have a sinful nature?

[John317]

....we treat the "flesh" like some half dead being.

Whereas the bible teaches us that in Christ it is dead.

What's the difference between our "flesh" and our sinful human nature?

What is the difference between walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit?

Does a person walking in the Spirit never have any lustful thoughts or temptations?

Romans 6: 6 says that "our old man was crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should not longer be slaves of sin."

But then notice that Romans 6: 11 says that we are to "reckon" or "consider" ourselves to be "dead indeed to sin." v. 12, "Do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."

Could you explain what you understand these verses to be saying?

[miz3]

All fallen humans have sinful lusts because we have practiced sin.

NO!

WE HAVE SINFUL LUSTS BECAUSE WE ARE BORN SINFUL!

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: John317

All fallen humans have sinful lusts because we have practiced sin.

NO!

WE HAVE SINFUL LUSTS BECAUSE WE ARE BORN SINFUL!

I agree with you here miz3.

In the sanctuary service known sins had to be atoned for.

But so did "unknown" sin.

"unknown" sin is that which we do because it is our nature to do.

Therefore Christ could not have had "unknown" sin in Him, because that also would have required a sacrifice.

So the sin we are born inherent with, has to be atoned for.

Our very "sinfullness" has to be atoned for, not just our known sin.

Mark :-)

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

... we treat the "flesh" like some half dead being.

Whereas the bible teaches us that in Christ it is dead.

But we do not believe that, because although we mentally assent to the fact it is dead in Christ, we actually then teach it is very much alive still.

That is the contradiction that arises out of trying to have Christ both "sinful" and "sinless" at the same time.

This error affects our victory over sin.

Could you please say more about this?

Is your flesh totally dead so that you don't even hear a peep out of it?

Since you died with Christ in baptism, are you saying that your flesh has been completely dead and unresponsive?

I have never said that Christ was sinful. Christ was totally sinless. Christ lived a sinless life-- absolutely faithful to His Father-- in sinful flesh. That is different from saying Christ was sinful. To say Christ was sinful is the same as saying Christ committed sin.

Known sin is crucified when confessed to Christ.

The temptations experienced then are "external", not internal.

Satan then uses the fiery darts (which are his insertions of thoughts into our minds), to tempt us.

As we abide in Christ, those lusts and desires are dead.

But if we succumb to satans lies and temptations, we step off the ground of faith and we will end up returning to that which we were delivered from.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

It means what it says.

So, let me get this straight, the believer doesn't have a sinful nature?

That is not what it says Sonny...

It says the sinner has "crucified" the lusts and desires "in Christ".

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

....we treat the "flesh" like some half dead being.

Whereas the bible teaches us that in Christ it is dead.

What's the difference between our "flesh" and our sinful human nature?

What is the difference between walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit?

Does a person walking in the Spirit never have any lustful thoughts or temptations?

Romans 6: 6 says that "our old man was crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should not longer be slaves of sin."

But then notice that Romans 6: 11 says that we are to "reckon" or "consider" ourselves to be "dead indeed to sin." v. 12, "Do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."

Could you explain what you understand these verses to be saying?

I stick to the KJV, which simply renders "flesh" from sarx and does not use what I would consider the confusing "sinful nature" term.

Walking in the flesh is the mind fixed on the leading of an alive flesh.

Walking in the Spirit is the mind fixed on the leading of the Spirit, who will then put the flesh to death.

A person who has crucified the flesh in an area will still be tempted in their "mind" by Satan. But not "in their flesh".

The term "reckon" means to "account", it is an accounting term.

So Paul is saying, "add these truths together".

It is simple arithmetic that is being discussed. We use the term "reckon" in its modern usage and not how it was intended in the original KJV translators minds.

To "reckon" is to "account".

It does not mean to think it is true, even though it isn't...

[Musicman1228]

There is a HUGE difference between 'being born sinful' and 'being born in sin'.

A newborn baby is 'born in sin' but is not sinful. That is because they have not done anything that is sinful, yet. They may experience the ravages of sin by being born premature, or with a birth defect, but that does not mean that they as an individual 'free moral agent' have committed any sin.

Does a baby know what sin is? No. All they know is when they are hungry they need food. Or that they are uncomfortable and need a diaper change. Their world view is non-existent, and their experience is very narrow in scope.

We even say of a child that they are not held accountable for their actions until they become 'of age', or become an adult. For Christians this happens at age 12 because that is the age Jesus taught in the Temple in Jerusalem; it is called the 'age of accountability'. I wonder if this is what Jesus meant for us when He said that unless we become as a little child we will not receive the Kingdom of Heaven?

Yet according to common theology there is no accountability anymore because of grace, and the fact that the Law has been done away with. Therefore, if none of us are held accountable for our actions under the Law then none of us are adult. Hmm!

[ClubV12]

I'd leave room for children younger than 12 to know, understand and accept Jesus as their personal saviour. You could say by age 12, assuming a normal healthy child of course, that is the definitive age of reckoning (if we have to put a number on it).

[skyblue888]

We are all born with a sinful nature. Period.

Jesus was born with a sinful nature like ours and yet never sinned, even in his childhood.

By the power of God, the same power of God ready to be revealed in the last time, He condemned sin in the flesh, in sinful flesh.

The only difference between him and us is that his mind never yielded to the drawings of the flesh. We have.

sky

[miz3]

There is a HUGE difference between 'being born sinful' and 'being born in sin'.

A newborn baby is 'born in sin' but is not sinful. That is because they have not done anything that is sinful, yet. They may experience the ravages of sin by being born premature, or with a birth defect, but that does not mean that they as an individual 'free moral agent' have committed any sin.

Does a baby know what sin is? No. All they know is when they are hungry they need food. Or that they are uncomfortable and need a diaper change. Their world view is non-existent, and their experience is very narrow in scope.

We even say of a child that they are not held accountable for their actions until they become 'of age', or become an adult. For Christians this happens at age 12 because that is the age Jesus taught in the Temple in Jerusalem; it is called the 'age of accountability'. I wonder if this is what Jesus meant for us when He said that unless we become as a little child we will not receive the Kingdom of Heaven?

Yet according to common theology there is no accountability anymore because of grace, and the fact that the Law has been done away with. Therefore, if none of us are held accountable for our actions under the Law then none of us are adult. Hmm!

[Twilight II]

We are all born with a sinful nature. Period.

Jesus was born with a sinful nature like ours and yet never sinned, even in his childhood.

By the power of God, the same power of God ready to be revealed in the last time, He condemned sin in the flesh, in sinful flesh.

The only difference between him and us is that his mind never yielded to the drawings of the flesh. We have.

sky

So how do you deal with this plain statement then Sky?

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin

[Twilight II]

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

[miz3]

Powerful stuff, Twilight!

It is clear it is simple!

No "us" even in the temptations of Christ in the Wilderness!

Either it is or it isn't! No middle ground is available, Sonny!

[miz3]

If as Ellen White here says that Christ was the "second Adam as Adam was in the Garden of Eden" then Christ could NOT HAVE YOU AND ME IN HIM AT THE INCARNATION!

[Musicman1228]

We are all born with a sinful nature. Period.

Jesus was born with a sinful nature like ours and yet never sinned, even in his childhood.

By the power of God, the same power of God ready to be revealed in the last time, He condemned sin in the flesh, in sinful flesh.

The only difference between him and us is that his mind never yielded to the drawings of the flesh. We have.

sky

Sky,

This truly is tragic for you and the others that believe this lie. Jesus IS GOD, and was even as a baby. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and as such could contain no sin of any kind; either in His body or Spirit. Do you really think that if Jesus had not been executed by His Father on the cross that He would have died of old age? There is a VAST difference between Jesus and us; He was born the Son of God, we must become sons and daughters of God by being born again. And who gives us this birth? The same Woman that gave birth to Jesus Christ-the Holy Spirit, the Woman of Rev. 12.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.   (2) She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. Rev. 12:1-2.

She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, Rev. 12:5.

When we become righteous through the process of Sanctification as defined in the testimony of Jesus then we, also, become born of the same Spirit that gave birth to our elder brother and King-Jesus.

Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17.

The only reason not to acknowledge this is if you are either sound asleep (ref. 10 sleeping bridesmaid-Matt.25:1-13) or is you do not have eyes to see and ears to hear, because this IS the truth. These are not my words but His words.