"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Twilight II]

If as Ellen White here says that Christ was the "second Adam as Adam was in the Garden of Eden" then Christ could NOT HAVE YOU AND ME IN HIM AT THE INCARNATION!

Exactly miz3.

Christ suffered temptation the same way Adam did before the Fall.

He is the second Adam, just as Paul says.

[Just*]

«every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.» Jas 1:14

«...but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet]...» Heb 4:15

«...condemned sin in the flesh» Rom 8:3

[miz3]

«every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.» Jas 1:14

«...but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet]...» Heb 4:15

«...condemned sin in the flesh» Rom 8:3

You need to re read the whole thread.

You left a whole lot out of your little outline!

You just strung three texts together that are not connected properly!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: John317

All fallen humans have sinful lusts because we have practiced sin.

NO!

WE HAVE SINFUL LUSTS BECAUSE WE ARE BORN SINFUL!

We are born without the presence of God. Because of this our minds & natures are in complete harmony.

[Sonny]

That is not what it says Sonny...

It says the sinner has "crucified" the lusts and desires "in Christ".

If my nature is crucified that means it is dead, right? That's the same as not having a sinful nature, right?

[miz3]

Whatever Sonny, you have no Bible support for your views so your statement is not acceptable.

[Sonny]

A newborn baby is 'born in sin' but is not sinful. That is because they have not done anything that is sinful, yet.

Babies are self-centered. That's sin. They both think & act selfishly. Then there's Ps 51:5

[Sonny]

Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {13MR 18.1}

"In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.”

[Sonny]

If my nature is crucified that means it is dead, right? That's the same as not having a sinful nature, right?

[miz3]

I don't care if you don't like my statement or even state that it is not acceptable. Instead of dismissing my statement above you need to disprove it.

I have many many times. Twilight has been especially effective in debunking your unBiblical theory!

[miz3]

musicman1228,

Here is the text Sonny was trying to quote:

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Psalm 51:5.

That means at the moment of conception (when the egg and sperm first met) we were at that moment sinful and guilty of sin!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

I don't care if you don't like my statement or even state that it is not acceptable. Instead of dismissing my statement above you need to disprove it.

I have many many times. Twilight has been especially effective in debunking your unBiblical theory!

Wishful thinking!

[Sonny]

That means at the moment of conception (when the egg and sperm first met) we were at that moment sinful and guilty of sin!

No, not guilty of sin. An infant's brain doesn't even exist at conception.

An infant stands condemned because it shares Adam's life.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

A newborn baby is 'born in sin' but is not sinful. That is because they have not done anything that is sinful, yet.

Babies are self-centered. That's sin. They both think & act selfishly. Then there's Ps 51:5

That is nonsensical. Babies may be self centered BUT THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE which is exactly my point. Parents train their children to be sinful because they (themselves) are sinful, but only AFTER the child understands what sin is. Is it possible for a sinful parent to train an innocent child before the age of accountability to not be sinful? Yes! During his upbringing Jesus did not have any sin taught to Him by His parents, nor did He demonstrate sin in His life AFTER HE CAME OF AGE when He could be held accountable for it.

Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. Prov. 22:6.

[Sonny]

No, not guilty of sin. An infant's brain doesn't even exist at conception.

An infant stands condemned because it shares Adam's life.

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world [the human race], and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned....18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men...."

Adam's sin condemned the human race that dwelt in him. Why? Because when Adam sinned his humanity became indwelt with iniquity. Since all men share his life we too stand condemned.

On the other hand guilt is associated with volition - a deliberate act of the will.

[Sonny]

That is nonsensical. Babies may be self centered BUT THEY DON'T KNOW THEY ARE which is exactly my point.

The law doesn't care if you don't know....It demands perfect, unblemished righteousness. The law is not in the business of forgiveness.

[Sonny]

Paul states that as the Son of Man Jesus "Was made sin". Does this mean that Christ as the Son of Man sinned (as in transgression of the law)? No way! Then what does it mean? It means that when Christ assumed us that this humanity stood under condemnation, but not for sinning. That's why Gal 4:4 states that when Christ was made flesh that He was born under the law.

You see the law requires three things from me and you:

1] Perfect performance

2] Perfect nature

3] Perfect justice

[miz3]

No, not guilty of sin. An infant's brain doesn't even exist at conception.

An infant stands condemned because it shares Adam's life.

Oh! And you and other humans know exactly what is totally constituted at conception. You actually know what that "conception entity" has and does not have?

Science would love to have you being that you have discovered what no other human has discovered!

[miz3]

musicman1228,

You have direct unambiguous and clear Biblical language that states that the "age of accountability is twelve years old?

You further have unambiguous and clear Biblical language that the "child" is innocent of all sin until twelve years old?

I hope these questions are not too difficult!

[John317]

All fallen humans have sinful lusts because we have practiced sin.

Originally Posted By: miz3

NO!

WE HAVE SINFUL LUSTS BECAUSE WE ARE BORN SINFUL!

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I agree with you here miz3.

It sounds like you are saying that everything we do is sinful and that we can't ever really keep the commandments of God, because of the sinful nature we are born with.

If we have sinful lusts and if we sin simply because we are born sinful, doesn't that mean we can't stop sinning or stop having sinful lusts? How can we change the fact that we are born sinful?

How can God hold us accountable for a condition we didn't choose or punish us for something we were born with and can't help?

[Sonny]

Oh! And you and other humans know exactly what is totally constituted at conception. You actually know what that "conception entity" has and does not have?

Yes, a brain doesn't exist at conception! Come on....Don't turn common sense into some mystical voodoo.

[miz3]

It sounds like you are saying that everything we do is sinful and that we can't ever really keep the commandments of God, because of the sinful nature we are born with.

If we have sinful lusts and if we sin simply because we are born sinful, doesn't that mean we can't stop sinning or stop having sinful lusts? How can we change the fact that we are born sinful?

How can God hold us accountable for a condition we didn't choose or punish us for something we were born with and can't help?

[miz3]

Yes, a brain doesn't exist at conception! Come on....Don't turn common sense into some mystical voodoo.

[Word deleted by the moderator.]

You actually have no idea what God is doing at conception. Admit it Sonny! You do not know, and I don't know.

What we do know is what the Bible says. It says we were "conceived in sin". That means we are sinners plain and simple!

[John317]

Romans 6: 6 says that "our old man was crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should not longer be slaves of sin."

But then notice that Romans 6: 11 says that we are to "reckon" or "consider" ourselves to be "dead indeed to sin." v. 12, "Do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."

Could you explain what you understand these verses to be saying?

Originally Posted By: TwilightII

The term "reckon" means to "account", it is an accounting term.

So Paul is saying, "add these truths together".

It is simple arithmetic that is being discussed. We use the term "reckon" in its modern usage and not how it was intended in the original KJV translators minds.

To "reckon" is to "account".

It does not mean to think it is true, even though it isn't...

I agree that it can have the meaning of "to count" and to "calculate." But is that the meaning in Romans 6: 11? It does not necessarily carry this meaning but it is also translated as "to regard," "to deem," "to consider," "to think," and "to reason."

The Greek word does indeed sometimes mean viewing something as true that is not actually true. For instance, see its use in 2 Cor. 10: 2; Romans 2: 3; 2 Cor. 10: 7; 1 Cor. 13: 11, etc.

Look at these uses of the word logizomai:

Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought [discredited NIV]; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth.

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean.

1 Cor. 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2 Cor 10:2 But I beseech [you], that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

Ph. 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [i do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Ro. 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Ro. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Ro. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2 Cor 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's.

2 Cor. 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such [will we be] also in deed when we are present.

Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

1 Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It sounds like you are saying that everything we do is sinful and that we can't ever really keep the commandments of God, because of the sinful nature we are born with.

Quote:

Your first paragraph: Correct! Why, because Paul in Romans says so in chapters seven and eight!

Are you saying the power of God in us, by the Holy Spirit, is unable to help us keep the commandments of God?

If you are right that people cannot keep the commandments of God, why does the Bible teach that we are able to keep the commandments of God?

Do you mean that I MUST disobey God's commandments?

Do I have no choice in the matter whether to obey or disobey God?