"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Twilight II]

At the incarnation to took into Himself OUR fallen humanity indwelt with iniquity.

You have no biblical basis for the bolded part of your statement here Sonny.

[Twilight II]

Lambs...sins placed on objects, etc, all metaphors and symbols. Come to reality...read Paul. He will clear things up for you.

Does it not concern you that God gave a message in the sanctuary service that explains the gospel, which you now dismiss as "irrelevant"?

The minute someone needs to discard a portion of the bible so that their doctrine "works" is the moment you know that it is uninspired and not from God.

Your dismissal of the deep truths of the sanctuary service displays that your position is uninspired.

In this, you are not different to Dr Rich and MM, who also do the very same thing. You have been caught in the same error.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

Christ met the claims of the Law by being obedient.

That's good for Christ, but it doesn't save me from under a law that condemns me. Besides, the law requires my obedience - not Christ's.

# 1 Let's say I get a speeding ticket (100MPH in a 35MPH zone).

# 2 Let's say we have another person who never speeds.

How can the perfect person (# 2) be punished for something I did (person # 1)?

No law will permit that...especially God's law.

"The person who sins must die"

Then you do not understand one of the most basic aspects of the Gospel Sonny.

Jesus did indeed die in our place for our sins and was punished for our sins.

[miz3]

Thank you Twilight.

You have indeed made a perfect Biblical case!

You have also exposed Sonny's fake gospel for what it is! A FAKE!

[Sonny]

Jesus did indeed die in our place for our sins and was punished for our sins.

And YOU died in Him.

[Sonny]

Does it not concern you that God gave a message in the sanctuary service that explains the gospel, which you now dismiss as "irrelevant"?

Your view of the gospel, through the sanctuary service, is legalistic. It's anti-gospel.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

At the incarnation to took into Himself OUR fallen humanity indwelt with iniquity.

You have no biblical basis for the bolded part of your statement here Sonny.

Romans 8:2,3 for starters

[John317]

Moderator to all--

We need more light and less heat in this discussion.

Be kind and loving to each other despite the disagreements over theological questions.

[Sonny]

You are back here to your need to have "Two Christs" Sonny.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God-- 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus is God, yet while remaining Himself He became "the son of man".

"In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus-- the Son of God, and the Son of man .” [EGW]

[Sonny]

okay

[John317]

To all--

If someone is "nasty" to you, contact me by PM and give me the post# and name of the discussion, and I will check it out. I'll delete the post or edit it if it is a personal attack or over the line.

[Sonny]

You are back here to your need to have "Two Christs" Sonny.

One human with our sin in Him (making Him a sinner).

Paul clearly teaches that the sinful human nature of us sinners is indwelt by sin [Romans 7:17, 20, 23] and, therefore, we are “by nature children of wrath” [Ephesians 2:3]. Since the Bible clearly teaches that Christ took the same flesh as that of the human race He came to redeem [Hebrews 2:14-17], the correct solution to the problem is to take note of the qualifying word used by the New Testament writers when they refer to the humanity of Christ [for example, John 1:14; Galatians 4:4, and 2 Corinthians 5:21]. In these three texts the word “made” is used with reference to the nature of Christ’s humanity.

What does this word mean? The Greek words translated in the King Jame’s Version of the Bible by “made” mean “to become.” When Christ became a man, He actually became what He was not, so that the sinful nature He assumed was not His by native right but something He took upon Himself, or assumed, or was made to be in order to redeem it. In other words, as Ellen White points out in Medical Ministry, p.181: “He took upon His sinless [divine] nature our sinful [human] nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted.” The words “took part” found in Hebrews 2:14 and the word “likeness” in Romans 8:3 carry the same connotation as the word “made” (see the International Critical Commentary, 1982 ed., and Word Biblical Commentary on Romans 8:3).

Had Christ consented to the sinful desires of that nature which He assumed, even by a thought, then He would have become a sinner Himself in need of a Saviour. That is why it must be stressed that in dealing with the human nature of Christ we must be “exceedingly careful” not to drag His mind or His choice into sin, or say that He “had” a sinful nature. But the fact is that Christ did actually assume our condemned sinful nature as we know it, but in His case He totally defeated “the law of sin and death” that resided in that sinful human nature which He assumed, and then executed it on the cross. This is the main thought expressed in Romans 8:1-3 which is Paul’s explanation of Romans 7:24, 25.

[miz3]

Sonny,

Quoting Jack S. doesn't get it done! Jack S. maybe your bible but Jack S. is not mine.

Whether you say it or Jack S. says it still does not make it correct. The Bible does not support what either you or Jack S. state.

You just continue to repeat your wrong assertions.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

You are back here to your need to have "Two Christs" Sonny.

One human with our sin in Him (making Him a sinner).

Paul clearly teaches that the sinful human nature of us sinners is indwelt by sin [Romans 7:17, 20, 23] and, therefore, we are “by nature children of wrath”

That is the unconverted condition of a sinful man.

Christ did not come into the world as an "unconverted man".

He did not come as the man of Romans 7.

He came as the man of Romans 8.

Paul does not reference Christ in Romans 7.

Only fallen man.

The man of Romans 7 is powerless to overcome sin.

The man of Romans 8 is victorious over sin.

Christ was victorious.

To argue that Romans 7 is Christ's experience is to say that Christ suffered this:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

We would have to say that Christ was "captive to sin".

-------------

We would also have to say that Christ was powerless over sin:

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I

Was Christ powerless over sin?

No.

This then is clearly talking about the unconverted believer, who wants to do the will of God but lacks the power because he does not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

It is not talking about Christ's experience.

[Sonny]

Paul does not reference Christ in Romans 7

Keep in mind that in the original manuscripts there is no chapter and verse division. This was added by men.

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh.....19 it is sin that lives in me.

Clearly sin (our bent to self) lives in our flesh - our humanity.

Now, did Christ have to deal with our flesh? Yes!

Romans 8:3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin's domain.... [Holman Christian Standard]

Romans 8:3 What the Law could not do, because human nature was weak, God did. He condemned sin in human nature by sending his own Son, who came with a nature like our sinful nature, to do away with sin. [GNT]

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh.... [NKJV]

In all three of these versions Christ had to deal with sin, where?, "in the flesh"! Christ clearly dealt with our indwelling sin.

[Sonny]

The Bible does not support what either you or Jack S. state.

Instead of making these broad statements it would be better if you actually supported these statements with facts.

[Sonny]

To argue that Romans 7 is Christ's experience ....

Mark, I never made that argument and you know it! The man of Romans 7 is being defeated by indwelling sin (sin in his humanity).

The man of Romans 8 who is fully walking in the Spirit is experiencing victory over indwelling sin.

Christ was born with His mind fully converted. He was made spiritually alive. He never gave into OUR sinful nature that He assumed at the incarnation. Instead He lived a perfect life in sinful flesh. And on the cross that humanity, indwelt with iniquity, died forever. In the resurrection Christ, as one of us, was raised with holy flesh!

[Twilight II]

In all three of these versions Christ had to deal with sin, where?, "in the flesh"! Christ clearly dealt with our indwelling sin.

Yes, on the Cross Sonny.

The sin was placed on the Lamb, just prior to its sacrifice.

Not before then.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

To argue that Romans 7 is Christ's experience ....

Mark, I never made that argument and you know it! The man of Romans 7 is being defeated by indwelling sin (sin in his humanity).

The man of Romans 8 who is fully walking in the Spirit is experiencing victory over indwelling sin.

Christ was born with His mind fully converted. He was made spiritually alive. He never gave into OUR sinful nature that He assumed at the incarnation. Instead He lived a perfect life in sinful flesh. And on the cross that humanity, indwelt with iniquity, died forever. In the resurrection Christ, as one of us, was raised with holy flesh!

I am glad you clarified that point Sonny, as it seemed to be that you were saying Christ had the Rom 7 experience, obviously I misunderstood your position.

But again you keep insisting that our sins were placed in Christ at the incarnation, when the sanctuary message clearly teaches it was placed on the lamb just before its sacrifice.

I do not see any clear teachings in the bible to support this idea that our sins were placed "in Christ" at the incarnation.

But there are plenty of clear teachings about our sin being placed on Christ just prior to His crucifixion.

So I have to go with the biblical evidence and reject what you are presenting.

Mark

[miz3]

Instead of making these broad statements it would be better if you actually supported these statements with facts.

I have numerous times. Go back over our exchanges again and you will see that indeed I have conclusively shown that your bible Jack S. is wrong and so that makes you wrong.

Go back and refresh your memory!

[Words here edited by moderator.]

[miz3]

But again you keep insisting that our sins were placed in Christ at the incarnation, when the sanctuary message clearly teaches it was placed on the lamb just before its sacrifice.

I do not see any clear teachings in the bible to support this idea that our sins were placed "in Christ" at the incarnation.

But there are plenty of clear teachings about our sin being placed on Christ just prior to His crucifixion.

So I have to go with the biblical evidence and reject what you are presenting.

Mega Dittos!

I have to go with the Biblical Evidence as well! Which means the Cross!

[Twilight II]

Christ was born with His mind fully converted. He was made spiritually alive. He never gave into OUR sinful nature that He assumed at the incarnation. Instead He lived a perfect life in sinful flesh. And on the cross that humanity, indwelt with iniquity, died forever. In the resurrection Christ, as one of us, was raised with holy flesh!

[miz3]

Great point Twilight!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

In all three of these versions Christ had to deal with sin, where?, "in the flesh"! Christ clearly dealt with our indwelling sin.

Yes, on the Cross Sonny.

The sin was placed on the Lamb, just prior to its sacrifice.

Not before then.

I can't believe you are mixing metaphors and symbols with reality! You can't say that because sin was transferred symbolically to the lamb just prior to its demise that the same was true of Christ.

You'll have to prove that Christ assumed our humanity (flesh) at the cross instead of the incarnation.

[Sonny]

But again you keep insisting that our sins were placed in Christ at the incarnation....

You changed it....I thought you said that our sin were placed ON Christ? Now it's in Christ? Which is it?

Anyway, I never insisted that our sins were place in or on Christ. Those are metaphors.....