"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[miz3]

musicman1228,

You are the one who has rejected the "Trees Principle"! These are the Word of Jesus Christ as cited by His eyewitness Matthew in Chapter seven of Matthew's gospel.

Matthew is not Paul yet Jesus Christ Himself lays down the same Principle as Paul laid down.

You are the one along with Dr. Rich who does not believe in Paul. I find this curious because both Matthew and Paul agree as to the Principle of the Human Condition!

The facts are that you and Dr. Rich only take select portions of Scripture that suit your warped view which is, you are afraid that the Law is getting the short end. You are afraid as so many are that the Law of God is being nullified.

However, the way you are going about it does nothing to protect the Law you claim is so necessary. You are a "works" only theology and the Bible (including the eyewitnesses) do not support such a doctrine.

I am not the one you have to fear in regard to the Law because like Jesus Christ I want to uphold the Law from those who would nullify it by their "cheep grace".

You and Dr. Rich are so paranoid about "cheap grace" that you have swung too far the other way into the "legalistic" camp like the Jewish Leaders of Christ's day.

You have erroneously lumped Paul into that the "cheap grace" camp and so you reject him.

You and Dr. Rich have become so fanatical that it is impossible to communicate Truth to you. You reject everything that does not fit you "template" even to the point of rejecting you own stated authorities.

[miz3]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

6. The Law was answered by God and Jesus Christ on the Cross!

How? The sinner must die, not the innocent....

It has already been shown to you Sonny that the Bible states that the Law was satisfied with the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. It is just simple FACT!

If God's Word is not good enough for you then I don't what will be, unless it is the unScriptural theories of Jack S.

Apparently Jack S. is more authority to you than is the Bible!

[miz3]

Sonny pay attention!

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

John 1:29-34.

Jesus Christ was the Lamb of God! Established FACT!

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."

John 1:1-5.

Jesus Christ was the Light! Established FACT!

"the people living in darkness have seen a great light"

Matthew 4:16.

Jesus Christ the Light came into the world (darkness) and people saw the Light. Jesus had NO DARKNESS IN HIM EVER!

Established FACT!

"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

John 8:12

Jesus Christ states that He is the Light. He didn't say I am 90% light or 50% light. No Jesus Christ was 100% Light. If Jesus Christ had taken on our "darkness" at the Incarnation He could not have said this because Jesus would have been then both light and darkness together. Established FACT!

"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?"

2Corinthians 6:14

This text tells that Jesus Christ could not have been "yoked" in any way with any darkness! Established FACT!

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth."

1John 1:5-6.

No darkness whatsoever in Jesus Christ! It clearly says, "no darkness AT ALL"! Established FACT!

We have clearly and definitively shown from Scripture that Jesus Christ is the unblemished Lamb of God. No ifs ands or buts about it! Established FACT!

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

2Corinthians 5:14-21.

Notice in verses fourteen and fifteen Paul is talking about the Cross. The Cross Sonny! The Cross Sonny! Established FACT!

What did Christ do on the Cross? Verse 21 tells us the answer!

It says, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us"!

Did you get that Sonny! The pure Lamb of God was made "sin for us" on the Cross Sonny! NO WHERE ELSE! Established FACT!

Some translators us "him who had no sin to be a sin offering"!

Does that ring a bell, Sonny? That would be referring to the OT when the spotless lamb would become sin or a sin offering for the Jewish sinner! Established FACT!

This is the Bible Sonny and it upholds my position in its entirety! My position is the Gospel because I got it from the Bible! Established FACT!

Unlike you because you got your position from Jack S. which is clearly NOT THE gospel! Established FACT!

[Musicman1228]

I don't get something, Miz3.

You first cite 1 John 1:5-6 and say correctly that Jesus has no darkness in Him AT ALL.

Then you cite Paul in 2 Cor. 5:14-21 and then say that "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us"!

Is not sin the same thing a darkness? How then could Jesus do His work on the cross as the perfect Passover Lamb and have any sin in Him that would cause Him to be darkness, which would nullify His ability to act as the perfect, sinless Passover Lamb on behalf of the Kingdom of Heaven. The reason why God in Ex. 12 required a perfect unblemished lamb is that sin cannot pay the penalty for sin. If jesus had any sin in Him of placed on Him He would have been disqualified to act on our behalf as our substitute sacrifice which could then purchase a Kingdom for God (Rev. 5:9-10).

Please explain. Thanks.

[miz3]

Is not sin the same thing a darkness? How then could Jesus do His work on the cross as the perfect Passover Lamb and have any sin in Him that would cause Him to be darkness, which would nullify His ability to act as the perfect, sinless Passover Lamb on behalf of the Kingdom of Heaven. The reason why God in Ex. 12 required a perfect unblemished lamb is that sin cannot pay the penalty for sin. If jesus had any sin in Him of placed on Him He would have been disqualified to act on our behalf as our substitute sacrifice which could then purchase a Kingdom for God (Rev. 5:9-10).

1. Sin is the same thing as darkness!

2. In the OT the sins of the Jew who brought the perfect lamb were placed on that perfect lamb. When the sins of Jew were placed on that perfect lamb the lamb was on longer perfect was made sin for the Jew. Thus, the lamb died paying the Jew's penalty. That made the Jew perfect! Thus, the Jew walked away sinless (Justified)!

3. The same Principle was at work in Jesus Christ on the Cross. That is how Jesus Christ became "sin for us". That is why the Wrath of God came down on Jesus Christ instead of coming down on you and I. You and I are now Justified.

4. The whole point is to make the perfect innocent one guilty by the placing of the sin they did not commit on them! This took away the guilt and the sin from the actual perpetrator. That is the "WORK" Jesus Christ did on the Cross.

5. You are mixed up because you do not understand the Scripture and what the Scripture actually says. You like Sonny keep wanting to add some unScriptural "notion" you have to the Word of God.

Another thing that mixes you up is again like Sonny you mix Biblical Passages that have nothing to do with each other and try and marry them together to form some cockamamie theory that sounds "good" to your ear.

Both of these things are why you, Dr. Rich, and Sonny (Jack S.) are so mixed up! You come to the Bible with too many preconceived ideas and notions. Secondly you tinker with Scripture in a way God never meant! This leads to confusion, contortions, complexity, erroneous conclusion, twists, contextual errors, etc. etc.!

Then when you have to defend your foolish assertions you have to make more errors in Biblical Study in order to try and cover the mistakes you have already made.

One additional thing you and Dr. Rich have against you is that you do not understand the Kingdom of Heaven. I know this will probably cause you to go berserk because you both think that this is your strongest belief. It is the same idea as when the Jews thought they had Moses and the Law but Christ told them they didn't know Moses and the Law. The Jews then went berserk!

6. The Plan of Salvation is simple and beautiful. Even a child can understand it.

However, a child could never, ever understand what you, Dr. Rich, and Sonny (Jack S.) profess because it is so confused, contorted, complex, erroneous, twisted, etc. etc.!

[Sonny]

This gospel that you present is a joke. It's nonsense....It doesn't answer God's law.

[Sonny]

It has already been shown to you Sonny that the Bible states that the Law was satisfied with the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. It is just simple FACT!

The justice of the law was answered on the cross because YOU died to the law in the body of Christ. The other requirement is "obey & live". This wasn't answered on the cross.

[miz3]

This gospel that you present is a joke. It's nonsense....It doesn't answer God's law.

Are you calling the Bible Gospel a joke?

Are you calling the Bible Gospel nonsense?

You say it doesn't answer the law, but the Bible says that it does answer the Law!

It is only according to your authoritative source Jack S. that the law is not satisfied but according to the Bible the Gospel I have presented from the Bible says different.

The Gospel I preach-----Bible Sourced.

The gospel Sonny preaches-----Jack S. sourced.

[Sonny]

Are you calling the Bible Gospel a joke?

No, I'm calling the gospel you present a joke. Got that?

[miz3]

Quote:

Originally Posted By: miz3

Are you calling the Bible Gospel a joke?

No, I'm calling the gospel you present a joke. Got that?

[Sonny]

The Bible Gospel and the Gospel I present are the same thing!

No, that statement is untrue.

[miz3]

Sonny,

You are entitled to your opinion. Just as it is your right to believe in Jack S.'s theory!

[Sonny]

When you are ready to accept what the Bible states concerning the gospel then let me know. Until then this is useless....

[miz3]

Goodnight Sonny!

I don't think using Jack S. as the source of your gospel is the Bible! Maybe it is too you! I will take Paul and the rest of the True Scripture as the Bible!

[Sonny]

The Bible, especially Paul, includes OUR HUMANITY in the body of Christ.

Romans 6:6 "our old self was crucified with Him"

Romans 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

2 Cor 5:14 "One died for all, therefore all died"

So, what type of humanity did Christ have in Him? Our humanity!

[miz3]

Yes! Sonny but it ALL happened only at the Cross! NOT THE INCARNATION!

[Sonny]

Yes! Sonny but it ALL happened only at the Cross! NOT THE INCARNATION!

I wasn't replying to you, miz3. Why? Because you have trouble reasoning.....

You see if my humanity died in the body of Christ then Christ had in Him my sinful nature. Why? Because I was in Him and I have a sinful nature.

[miz3]

You see if my humanity died in the body of Christ then Christ had in Him my sinful nature. Why? Because I was in Him and I have a sinful nature.

I am replying to you!

The quote above is correct as long we are talking about the CROSS ONLY!

If you are talking about the Incarnation then of course you are wrong because the Bible does support or preach such dribble.

I have given you Bible proof of my position.

You have only given us Jack S. as the authority for your position.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

You see if my humanity died in the body of Christ then Christ had in Him my sinful nature. Why? Because I was in Him and I have a sinful nature.

The quote above is correct as long we are talking about the CROSS ONLY!

If I died in Him (which the Bible states I did) then my humanity, indwelt with sin, had to be in Him before the cross.

[miz3]

If I died in Him (which the Bible states I did) then my humanity, indwelt with sin, had to be in Him before the cross.

The Bible no where says that our humanity dwelt in Jesus Christ before the Cross.

Such a concept comes from the imagination of Jack S. NOT THE BIBLE!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

If I died in Him (which the Bible states I did) then my humanity, indwelt with sin, had to be in Him before the cross.

The Bible no where says that our humanity dwelt in Jesus Christ before the Cross.

No, you don't understand...you can't reason. Our humanity already had to be "in Christ" in order for you & me to die in Him on the cross. This timeline is so simple a caveman could understand it....

[miz3]

No, you don't understand...you can't reason. Our humanity already had to be "in Christ" in order for you & me to die in Him on the cross. This timeline is so simple a caveman could understand it...

Sonny Truth is found in the Word of God ONLY; Truth is not in the reasoning theories of humans.

It is now clear for all to see that your belief is based on "your reason" and not on the Word of God. We have your written admission!

This means that your (and Jack S.)'s gospel is not based on the Bible but is based merely on human reasoning. Such a platform on which to build is like the Bible states building on sand like the foolish man.

On the other hand I build my views of the Gospel strictly on what the Bible states. I have clearly demonstrated this!

[Sonny]

Sonny Truth is found in the Word of God ONLY; Truth is not in the reasoning theories of humans.

Yes, and in the Word of God we are told that our humanity died in the body of Christ. So how did it get into Christ? Paul's answer: "Born of a woman, born under the law".

God put us into Christ though Mary. If not, when?

[Sonny]

On the other hand I build my views of the Gospel strictly on what the Bible states. I have clearly demonstrated this!

No, your views are based in nonsensical metaphors that you try to make a reality. Hence your gospel is at best gibberish!

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: musicman1228

Is not sin the same thing a darkness? How then could Jesus do His work on the cross as the perfect Passover Lamb and have any sin in Him that would cause Him to be darkness, which would nullify His ability to act as the perfect, sinless Passover Lamb on behalf of the Kingdom of Heaven. The reason why God in Ex. 12 required a perfect unblemished lamb is that sin cannot pay the penalty for sin. If jesus had any sin in Him of placed on Him He would have been disqualified to act on our behalf as our substitute sacrifice which could then purchase a Kingdom for God (Rev. 5:9-10).

1. Sin is the same thing as darkness!

Good, we agree.

2. In the OT the sins of the Jew who brought the perfect lamb were placed on that perfect lamb. When the sins of Jew were placed on that perfect lamb the lamb was on longer perfect was made sin for the Jew. Thus, the lamb died paying the Jew's penalty. That made the Jew perfect! Thus, the Jew walked away sinless (Justified)!

As with so many 'New covenant' Christians you make the mistake of equating the Lamb used on the Day of Atonement with the Passover Lamb. They each have different purposes. Note that on the Day of Atonement there was a bull for the High Priest, a Ram for the Priests, and a goat for the people of the camp of Israel. Each animal had to be perfect, with no spot or blemish. The blood of each animal carried the (and this is important) FORGIVEN sins of the High Priest, Priests, and People onto horn of the Golden Altar in the Most Holy Place. (Yes, the Altar of Incense was considered to be in the Most Holy Place, because of the blood trail made by the Priest between the Altar and the Mercy Seat on the Ark.)

The Passover Lamb was NEVER used to remove sin from anyone. It was used exclusively to PURCHASE A KINGDOM AND PRIESTS FOR GOD. For this reason this Lamb could contain NO sin of any kind, or it would loose it's ability to be WORTHY to make this purchase. Jesus died as the Passover Lamb on the Cross, He therefore could contain NO sin. We know this was the case because of the following Scripture:

And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed (purchased) people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,   (10) and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” Rev. 5:9-10.

3. The same Principle was at work in Jesus Christ on the Cross. That is how Jesus Christ became "sin for us". That is why the Wrath of God came down on Jesus Christ instead of coming down on you and I. You and I are now Justified.

As the Passover Lamb Jesus did no become sin. If Jesus 'became sin' as you say then He would have to change His name to Satan. There is a caveat to the wrath of God. This is what John the Baptist had to say about it:

For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.   (35) The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.   (36) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:34-36.

4. The whole point is to make the perfect innocent one guilty by the placing of the sin they did not commit on them! This took away the guilt and the sin from the actual perpetrator. That is the "WORK" Jesus Christ did on the Cross.

The work that Jesus did on the cross was to pay the penalty for the forgiven sins of the Kingdom of Heaven, and thus purchase that Kingdom for God and for the Lamb (as we have seen above). Jesus was the innocent sacrifice, and remained innocent going into the grave. This is why Jesus was able to come out of the grave, because He was innocent of all sin. One does not need to become the very thing that the ONE pays the penalty for in order to pay that penalty. Jesus did pay the penalty for the Kingdom but did not need to become sin to do so. This concept was not taught by Jesus, it was only taught by Paul.

5. You are mixed up because you do not understand the Scripture and what the Scripture actually says. You like Sonny keep wanting to add some unScriptural "notion" you have to the Word of God.

I could say the same about you, but I won't because I am not going to judge that which is not my place to judge.

Another thing that mixes you up is again like Sonny you mix Biblical Passages that have nothing to do with each other and try and marry them together to form some cockamamie theory that sounds "good" to your ear.

It's called 'rightly dividing the word of God'. It is also called using context to connect the dots to produce the truth. You, of course, can call it what you want. It makes no 'never mind' to me.

Both of these things are why you, Dr. Rich, and Sonny (Jack S.) are so mixed up! You come to the Bible with too many preconceived ideas and notions. Secondly you tinker with Scripture in a way God never meant! This leads to confusion, contortions, complexity, erroneous conclusion, twists, contextual errors, etc. etc.!

Truth is singular and absolute, and is not open to private interpretation. This is a danger that all of us, including you, face every time we open Scripture to find truth. It is only those that think that they cannot be deceived that are consistently deceived; and only those that think they have all of the truth find out in the end that they have none of the truth. The Five Foolish Bridesmaids sincerely believed that they had the truth, but in the end they were left out of the marriage feast. They complained to God that they had done all of these wonderful things in His name, but He said to them, "I NEVER knew you". Humility will triumph over hubris every time.

Then when you have to defend your foolish assertions you have to make more errors in Biblical Study in order to try and cover the mistakes you have already made.

I never defend what I believe, because is merely is what it is. I will state my beliefs as clearly as I can, and I try never to attack a person for believing differently from me. This is lost on some.

One additional thing you and Dr. Rich have against you is that you do not understand the Kingdom of Heaven. I know this will probably cause you to go berserk because you both think that this is your strongest belief. It is the same idea as when the Jews thought they had Moses and the Law but Christ told them they didn't know Moses and the Law. The Jews then went berserk!

My picture of the Kingdom of Heaven comes directly from the words of Jesus, and not from anyone else. This is why you are confused about my understanding of the Kingdom of Heaven, because you use the words of others in addition to Jesus and then try to justify the differences. When I use only the words of Jesus there is nothing that I must justify to find truth. That truly simplifies the gospel of the Kingdom.

6. The Plan of Salvation is simple and beautiful. Even a child can understand it.

And the Plan of Salvation is different than what you believe it to be. Even a child can understand that.

However, a child could never, ever understand what you, Dr. Rich, and Sonny (Jack S.) profess because it is so confused, contorted, complex, erroneous, twisted, etc. etc.!

It must be very hard on you to try so hard to get some of us to believe your concepts (based on Paul) of the truth and have us not respond positively to your ministry. And because it is so frustrating you become judgmental and recalcitrant in your demeanor toward those that disagree with you. I am sorry that I am partly to blame for this, but there is nothing else I can do when I just don't see things your way. I pray God will bless all of us as we seek His truth.