"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Dr. Rich]

MM, the two who you addressed were doing some fine twist and spin dancing around the facts. Too bad you are just going to confuse them some more by more facts.

[Sonny]

From whom did Adam receive his humanity?

From His creator. God created Adam in His likeness after His image, but that was before the fall.

"Man was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience, his powers were perverted, and selfishness took the place of love. His nature became so weakened through transgression that it was impossible for him, in his own strength, to resist the power of evil. He was made captive by Satan, and would have remained so forever had not God specially interposed. It was the tempter's purpose to thwart the divine plan in man's creation, and fill the earth with woe and desolation. And he would point to all this evil as the result of God's work in creating man." [sC]

[Dr. Rich]

And pray tell what does the sin of Adam have to do with who it was that gave him his humanity? Huh?

[miz3]

Again, you have separated from Christ the very humanity He came to save. This is truly "another gospel".

No Sonny!

I have not separated Christ from us! We were united with Jesus Christ on the Cross!

Again, Sonny it is the Cross, the Cross!

You want to put us with Christ in a place and time the Bible does NOT SUPPORT!

[miz3]

Quote:

Here's a portion: At His birth, God united the divinity of Christ with our corporate humanity that needed redeeming. This made Christ one with us so that He could rewrite our history and change our status and destiny from that of condemnation to death, which we inherited from Adam, to justification to life

This is just more Jack S.'s contortions, twists, misreadings of Scripture, out of context Biblical verses, etc.

The Cross is the Center of all human existence.

You and Jack S. are trying to create a "new gospel" where the center of all human existence is the Incarnation.

THIS MEANS YOU AND JACK S. ARE PROPAGATING A FALSE GOSPEL! WHICH IS NOT BIBLICAL!

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

From whom did Adam receive his humanity?

From His creator. God created Adam in His likeness after His image, but that was before the fall.

"Man was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience, his powers were perverted, and selfishness took the place of love. His nature became so weakened through transgression that it was impossible for him, in his own strength, to resist the power of evil. He was made captive by Satan, and would have remained so forever had not God specially interposed. It was the tempter's purpose to thwart the divine plan in man's creation, and fill the earth with woe and desolation. And he would point to all this evil as the result of God's work in creating man." [sC]

So Sonny, what you are implying is that God after the fall could not do the same thing for His son that He did for Adam before the fall; that is, make His body and mind without any hint of sin. This seems ludicrous on it's face. And since Jesus did not disobey as did the first Adam this would indicate that Jesus did not succumb to this or any other temptation. This would seem to indicate that Jesus did not acquire sin in any form, either in His body or in His mind. Following this to its logical conclusion it would therefore be possible to say that Jesus had NO sin of any kind in Him and would thus be able to act in the capacity of the Passover Lamb, that must be without spot or blemish to fulfill it's role in the plan of salvation.

If, as you and others say, Jesus acquired His human form from Mary He also would have acquired sinful DNA from her, which would negate His ability to act as the Passover Lamb in purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

So take your pick: did Jesus act as the Passover Lamb or did He not? If He did then He had NO sin in or on Him of any kind; If He did have some kind of sin in or on Him (the sins of the world?) then He did not have the ability to act as the Passover Lamb, and we all are lost.

[miz3]

So Sonny, what you are implying is that God after the fall could not do the same thing for His son that He did for Adam before the fall; that is, make His body and mind without any hint of sin. This seems ludicrous on it's face. And since Jesus did not disobey as did the first Adam this would indicate that Jesus did not succumb to this or any other temptation. This would seem to indicate that Jesus did not acquire sin in any form, either in His body or in His mind. Following this to its logical conclusion it would therefore be possible to say that Jesus had NO sin of any kind in Him and would thus be able to act in the capacity of the Passover Lamb, that must be without spot or blemish to fulfill it's role in the plan of salvation.

If, as you and others say, Jesus acquired His human form from Mary He also would have acquired sinful DNA from her, which would negate His ability to act as the Passover Lamb in purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

So take your pick: did Jesus act as the Passover Lamb or did He not? If He did then He had NO sin in or on Him of any kind; If He did have some kind of sin in or on Him (the sins of the world?) then He did not have the ability to act as the Passover Lamb, and we all are lost.

At least on this point you and I are in agreement!

[miz3]

However, that is exactly Sonny's and Jack's point that Christ was made "sinful" at the Incarnation.

[Sonny]

And pray tell what does the sin of Adam have to do with who it was that gave him his humanity? Huh?

Because Adam, through sin, polluted his/our humanity with iniquity.

[Sonny]

I have not separated Christ from us! We were united with Jesus Christ on the Cross!

Give me Biblical evidence that God put YOU into Christ at the cross instead of at the incarnation.

[Sonny]

...Christ was made "sinful" at the Incarnation.

Christ, as God, took our humanity that needed redeeming at the incarnation. In it He lived a life of perfect, unblemished obedience. And at the cross we died in Him. Hence the law has been satisfied.

[Sonny]

If, as you and others say, Jesus acquired His human form from Mary He also would have acquired sinful DNA from her, which would negate His ability to act as the Passover Lamb in purchasing a Kingdom for God (Rev.5:9-10).

The passover lamb's spotlessness symbolized perfect performance; not perfect nature.

[miz3]

Because Adam, through sin, polluted his/our humanity with iniquity.

No Sonny! Adam did not pollute our humanity. Adam had no power to that.

Read Paul it was God who decreed that Adam's sin would be given to all of Adam's descendents. This is why we are born under a death sentence. God by fiat made us children of Wrath!

It was not some "natural" thing for Adam to pass on his sin. It was passed on to us by God's decree!

Just as it was God's decree (by fiat) that God made us alive in Jesus Christ! This is also Paul!

For someone who loves Paul you are not up on what Paul actually states.

[miz3]

Give me Biblical evidence that God put YOU into Christ at the cross instead of at the incarnation.

It has already been done, Sonny. In fact it has been done over and over again for you!

Since you are wedded to Jack S.'s fake gospel you reject the clear Word of God.

[miz3]

Christ, as God, took our humanity that needed redeeming at the incarnation. In it He lived a life of perfect, unblemished obedience. And at the cross we died in Him. Hence the law has been satisfied.

Nice theory.

The only problem I see with it is that such a theory is not Biblical! Something that has been shown to you over and over again!

[miz3]

The passover lamb's spotlessness symbolized perfect performance; not perfect nature.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT ABOUT THE LAMB'S PERFORMANCE.

All references to the sacrificial lamb were that the lamb had to be spotless. They did not select lambs in the OT because the lambs kept some law and demonstrated obedience (ie:performance). The Bible Standard was that the lamb be without "spot or wrinkle". That is in reference to the lamb's condition not the lamb's performance!

See here again is another example of how you are twisting contorting and misshaping the Word of God to suit your erroneous gospel. This is what is necessary for you to do because it does not hold up under the True Words of God in the Bible.

If Jesus Christ was spotty as you claim at the Incarnation than Jesus Christ would not have been the spotless Lamb! His condition would have already been with spot and wrinkle! Thus, your erroneous claims do not pass the Bible Standard! The Bible test is CONDITION and NOT performance!

[Dr. Rich]

Jesus didn't put anyone's sin on Him at the cross as He was perfect. He just paid the penalty for Adam's sin and made it possible for ONLY those who obey the ten commandments and the words of Jesus to also have their penalty of second death done away with. It's just that simple!

[miz3]

Jesus didn't put anyone's sin on Him at the cross as He was perfect. He just paid the penalty for Adam's sin and made it possible for ONLY those who obey the ten commandments and the words of Jesus to also have their penalty of second death done away with. It's just that simple!

If what you say is true then why does Revelation (eyewitness) call Jesus Christ the "Lamb of God"?

I believe you err in regard to the what the "eyewitness" states emphatically and also believed himself.

You of course are aware that the OT lamb had the Jew put their sins on the lamb and thus the lamb as "made sin" for the Jew also paid the penalty for that sin!

Again, the Day of Atonement was needed to take all those sins from all those lambs in order to "cleanse the Sanctuary"! Those sins came from somewhere (the lamb), they didn't just phantomly appear in and on the Sanctuary.

Thus, Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God had our sins placed on Him and He died our death. That is eyewitness FACT!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Give me Biblical evidence that God put YOU into Christ at the cross instead of at the incarnation.

It has already been done, Sonny.

No, it hasn't!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

The passover lamb's spotlessness symbolized perfect performance; not perfect nature.

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE OLD TESTAMENT ABOUT THE LAMB'S PERFORMANCE.

I never said that.....Read it again: "The passover lamb's spotlessness symbolized perfect performance..."

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Because Adam, through sin, polluted his/our humanity with iniquity.

No Sonny! Adam did not pollute our humanity. Adam had no power to that.

Sin polluted Adam's humanity....

[Sonny]

Jesus didn't put anyone's sin on Him at the cross as He was perfect. He just paid the penalty for Adam's sin and made it possible for ONLY those who obey the ten commandments and the words of Jesus to also have their penalty of second death done away with. It's just that simple!

Flat out legalism! Richard, why don't you join Judaism?

[miz3]

I never said that.....Read it again: "The passover lamb's spotlessness symbolized perfect performance..."

There is nothing in Scripture about the OT lamb "symbolizing" performance!

This "performance" thing is an invention of your imagination unless you got from someone else's twisted imagination (maybe Jack S.). Again Sonny you know that such game playing is not engaging in honest Bible Study!

[miz3]

In order to perform righteously you must be in a righteous condition first! Therefore if Jesus' condition was NOT righteous by for example carry our sin then Jesus Christ could NOT have performed righteously.

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Matthew 7:15-20.

This text bears witness that condition is the key. We know that Jesus Christ was a "Good Tree" (condition) that is why Jesus Christ bore Good Fruit (performance).

The OT lamb was never judged on performance nor was the OT lamb symbolizing performance because the Bible never says it was about the lamb's performance but the Bible does say it is about the lamb's condition!

This "performance thing" you are grasping desperately at demonstrates how your admitted pride has you firmly in its grasp and will not let you go!

Calling on Jesus Christ for Help is the ONLY Antidote to rid yourself from the slavery of Pride!

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Jesus didn't put anyone's sin on Him at the cross as He was perfect. He just paid the penalty for Adam's sin and made it possible for ONLY those who obey the ten commandments and the words of Jesus to also have their penalty of second death done away with. It's just that simple!

Flat out legalism! Richard, why don't you join Judaism?

Sonny, do you know the difference between the words "lawful" and "legal"? Not too many have been thru law school to understand that the word "lawful" means to obey the common law as in 'de jure' which is the truth.

On the other hand, "legal" is a fictional lawful. Thus, "legal tender" means 'fictional making an offer to pay', NOT the payment itself.

Another way to look at this is that one can go as fast as they want in a car on a road and go through stop signs without stopping in a "lawful" manner as long as this one does not interefere with anyone else. That is completely lawful! On the other hand, when you get your license by contract to obey all traffic regulations and you agree, then when you go speeding thru the stop signs it is NOT legal for you to do so.

Here is the thing: Keeping the ten commandments without loving God and without the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth, is a fictional thing to do, as in keeping man made laws. So in a way you are correct in that the Jews were keeping it in a legal manner.

But, keeping all of the commandments and the words of Jesus because you actually love God and are showing your love by obeying, that is totally lawful and is what one MUST do to accept the fact that Jesus paid the penalty for your sins.

Does this make sense?