Musicman1228 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 As my friend Dr. Rich has said there is a huge difference between being 'legal' and being 'lawful'. Here is how I explain it. If you are inside the Kingdom of Heaven then by keeping the Covenant of the Kingdom you are being 'lawful'. By trying to keep the 10 Commandments without observing the connection between the Covenant and the Kingdom of Heaven you are being 'legal'. If you claim you are in the Kingdom of Heaven because you have been 'born again' and do not keep the Covenant by the power and instruction of the Holy Spirit, the 'penalty' is that you are no longer in that Kingdom because you have proven that you have not been born again OF the Holy Spirit. Only those inside the Kingdom of Heaven will be saved. This is lawfulness. If, on the other hand, you try to keep the 10 Commandments without recognizing that you must be in the Kingdom of Heaven to be saved, and it is the Covenant that identifies you as a member of the Kingdom of Heaven and you don't keep them, then the penalty is death for disobedience against God. This is legalism. Legalism is trying to keep the 10 Commandments on your own without the guidance and power and rebirth by the Holy Spirit. Since the death of Jesus Christ on the cross paid the penalty ONLY for those in the Kingdom of Heaven and since you are not in the Kingdom of Heaven, the death of Jesus does not pay your penalty. Lawfulness is recognizing that the 10 Commandments are the Covenant of the Kingdom of Heaven, and that keeping them through the guidance, power and rebirth by the Holy Spirit identifies you as a member of that Kingdom, whereby the the penalty of death under which you now live is paid in full by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross for the Kingdom of Heaven. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 One further point: The leaders of the Jews took it upon themselves to 'embellish' the Law to their own benefit; which is why they were 'legalists'. Take a look at the explanation of 'legal' vs.'lawful' that I provided above and see if this doesn't explain the actions of anyone that promote 'legalism' over being 'lawful'. The sad fact is that there are people that have their own agenda just as did the leadership of the Jews, an agenda that promote the 'lawlessness' of legalism. They mistake the purpose of the 10 Commandments as being rules unto themselves that must be kept for their own sake, rather than being the Covenant that establishes the relationship between God and His Kingdom. Lawfulness indicates the salvation relationship between God and His Kingdom. Legalism implies that the salvation relationship is between God and an individual person, i.e., a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke often of the former (Lawfulness) in His teachings on the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus NEVER spoke of the latter (legalism) as being the relationship that caused a person to be saved. This is a concept that only comes through the teachings of Paul. Quote
Sonny Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny I never said that.....Read it again: "The passover lamb's spotlessness symbolized perfect performance..." There is nothing in Scripture about the OT lamb "symbolizing" performance! There is nothing in Scripture about the OT lamb "symbolizing" Holy Flesh. Quote
Sonny Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Calling on Jesus Christ for Help is the ONLY Antidote to rid yourself from the slavery of Pride! No, not pride. You need to stop this charge. Get back to the subject and stop personal attacks. Quote
Sonny Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Take a look at the explanation of 'legal' vs.'lawful' .... No, let's get back to the subject. The law demands your death, period. That's legal/lawful or whatever you want to call it. Christ can't die instead of you! You must die. Christ isn't the sinner. End of discussion. Quote
miz3 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Christ can't die instead of you! Where in Scripture does it say that? Paul says that Christ died instead of us! See Romans chapter five. Quote
Sonny Posted July 5, 2011 Author Posted July 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Christ can't die instead of you! Where in Scripture does it say that? Paul says that Christ died instead of us! See Romans chapter five. Christ isn't the sinner. The law can't condemn an innocent man! What part of this don't you understand? That's why God put you into Christ at the incarnation. In Christ your humanity was made obedient and in Christ your humanity died. Otherwise the law has not been answered. Quote
miz3 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Christ isn't the sinner. The law can't condemn an innocent man! What part of this don't you understand? That's why God put you into Christ at the incarnation. In Christ your humanity was made obedient and in Christ your humanity died. Otherwise the law has not been answered. 1. I am not saying Jesus Christ ever was the sinner! In fact I am saying Jesus Christ was always free from all sin whatsoever! 2. I am not saying that the Law condemned Jesus Christ! In fact I am saying that it was NOT THE LAW that condemned Jesus Christ. 3. I have always been very clear about the two above points. It cannot be then that you do not understand what I am saying. If you have misunderstood what I have always been saying then you are clearly not as competent as I have thought. 4. There is no Scripture that states any human was put in Jesus Christ at the Incarnation. This has been shown to you repeatedly but you continue to want to hold to your nonBiblical theory. What are you afraid of? 5. No Sonny, our humanity was not made obedient in Christ after the Incarnation up to the Cross. There is no Biblical support for such a theory. Paul in Romans is quite explicit that we are made obedient in Christ by the Sanctification Process! That is the process that comes after Christ's finished work on the Cross (Justification). I thought you knew Paul? It appears you know Jack S. but you don't know Paul or the Scripture. 6. The Law was answered by God and Jesus Christ on the Cross! You may not like the way God has done things but God did it this way. God, Jesus Christ, and the Law are not the One's kicking up a fuss. You and Jack S. seem to be among the few who are NOT SATISFIED WITH THE WAY GOD AND JESUS CHRIST DID THINGS! The Bible is satisfied why are you not satisfied? 7. It seems that you and Jack S. want to complicate things. You and Jack S. want to make a big legal case out of it in which only theologians, linguistic whizes, etc. know what is going on when God makes it so simple for us a child can understand it. I have explained all this to you before. Why do you want things to be so contorted, so unBiblical, so complex? Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Sonny wrote: "There is nothing in Scripture about the OT lamb "symbolizing" Holy Flesh." Ooops Sonny, try Ex.12:5, "unblemished" Strongs 8549 means perfect and blameless as in NO SIN! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 6, 2011 Moderators Posted July 6, 2011 Ooops Sonny, try Ex.12:5, "unblemished" Strongs 8549 means perfect and blameless as in NO SIN! The words "perfect" and "blameless" never mean sinless in the Bible. Job, for instance, was said to be "perfect" or "blameless," yet he was never understood to be without sin. The same with Noah. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Ooops Sonny, try Ex.12:5, "unblemished" Strongs 8549 means perfect and blameless as in NO SIN! The words "perfect" and "blameless" never mean sinless in the Bible. Job, for instance, was said to be "perfect" or "blameless," yet he was never understood to be without sin. The same with Noah. Huh? How can one be blameless and still have sin? You have to be kidding me John. Enoch was blameless and went to heaven. Those found in Rev. 14:5 are also blameless and without any sin because they have repented and their past sins have been done away with. Quote
miz3 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Quote: Sonny wrote: "There is nothing in Scripture about the OT lamb "symbolizing" Holy Flesh." This is your term Sonny! I never said anything about "Holy Flesh"! The Bible only states what I have stated! Define "Holy Flesh"! Quote
miz3 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Quote: "The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats."Exodus 12:5. "without defect" is referring to the animals CONDITION and is NOT REFERRING to the animals PERFORMANCE! You say performance (this is your human addition), the Bible by its context clearly states CONDITION! Just as the OT lamb was in perfect CONDITION so Jesus Christ was in Perfect CONDITION! Jesus Christ was always in PERFECT CONDITION from the Incarnation to the Cross. On the Cross, God placed all humanity's sins on Jesus Christ! That is when as Paul says, "Jesus became sin for us"! Paul never ever puts our sin on Christ at the Incarnation (again this you human addition)! Paul always puts it at the Cross when Jesus became "sin for us"! It so happens that the rest of the Bible agrees with Paul or Paul agrees with the rest of the Bible. Interesting too that it states the lamb must be a "MALE". No females allowed. Let me see, now, could it be that the Bible meant "male" as a metaphor and/or symbol and that it actually didn't mean an actual physical male? Or, maybe sheep and goats are also symbols and/or metaphors too. If they are symbols and metaphors then maybe we could bring ----- fruits, grains, and nuts----- to the alter and that would be just as good. After all if it is a metaphor/symbol then we can take it any way we want to. Oh, that's right Cain already tried that. Sorry Sonny I guess that ruins your metaphor/symbol theory! Too bad, you actually have to go with what the text actually says. Quote
miz3 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 The words "perfect" and "blameless" never mean sinless in the Bible. Job, for instance, was said to be "perfect" or "blameless," yet he was never understood to be without sin. The same with Noah. Are you saying John, that the Bible does not mean what ii is actually saying? Is the Bible telling an untruth when it refers to these men, Job and Noah as perfect or blameless? Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Miz3, Satan's big lie is that there is a little evil in good and and a little good in evil (yin and yang) which is the foundation for all eastern type of religions. To tell someone that Jesus was not perfect and blameless and had a sinful nature, to MY understanding is to say the same thing that Satan said to cause a third of the angels to side with him. It's a religion of 'reasonablsess' or as the Masons say "reason". Reading the book by Albert Pike on the dogma of Free Masonery, the whole thing is about a complete balance in God and Satan and good and evil as in the yin and yang. Some believe that EGW believed this too. Of course, beliving that the spirit is good and the flesh is evil is also believing the same lie. God created the flesh and called it good! It was good and is still good!. The Flesh doesn't have a mind of it's own to choose evil. What Paul said about this issue to me is clearly taking the words of Lucifer's and appying it to his own gospel. Dying daily is another doctrine of Free Masonery. One of their rites is to become dead and then rise again as what Paul preached. Yes, Jesus said to take up your own cross and follow [after] Him. This means to overcome sin yourself just as Jesus did. You do this by practicing the truth as found in the last part of John 3. Quote
miz3 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Miz3, Satan's big lie is that there is a little evil in good and and a little good in evil (yin and yang) which is the foundation for all eastern type of religions. To tell someone that Jesus was not perfect and blameless and had a sinful nature, to MY understanding is to say the same thing that Satan said to cause a third of the angels to side with him. It's a religion of 'reasonablsess' or as the Masons say "reason". Reading the book by Albert Pike on the dogma of Free Masonery, the whole thing is about a complete balance in God and Satan and good and evil as in the yin and yang. Some believe that EGW believed this too. Of course, beliving that the spirit is good and the flesh is evil is also believing the same lie. God created the flesh and called it good! It was good and is still good!. The Flesh doesn't have a mind of it's own to choose evil. What Paul said about this issue to me is clearly taking the words of Lucifer's and appying it to his own gospel. Dying daily is another doctrine of Free Masonery. One of their rites is to become dead and then rise again as what Paul preached. Yes, Jesus said to take up your own cross and follow [after] Him. This means to overcome sin yourself just as Jesus did. You do this by practicing the truth as found in the last part of John 3. 1. I don't care anything about Free Masonery! They are clearly wrong! I am also not interested in pagan yin/yang. 2. The Bible states that the flesh (humanity's skin, liver, eyes, etc.) has indeed been corrupted by sin. We get sick, we suffer hunger, thirst, we feel pain, etc. Not only that the Bible is clear that our physical stature, energy, and capabilities are less than what they used to be. 3. Paul is saying that the flesh (defined in number two of my list) is ONLY DOING what the "sinful nature" (the one God gave us from Adam's sin) our master tells it to do. This is why we sin and are sinful! We cannot help but sin because that is what we are (See the Principle of this laid down in Matthew chapter seven. Matthew was an eyewitness)! 4. The only way to NOT SIN is to destroy the "sinful nature" and replace it with the "Spiritual Nature". The Spiritual Nature then becomes our New Master. We then will be controlled by the Holy Spirit and we will be Perfect, just as Jesus Christ was Perfect (Matthew 5:48). Jesus Christ is the Spirit, God is also the Spirit, The Holy Spirit is the Spirit! This is also what Jesus Christ was telling Nicodemus in JOHN CHAPTER THREE ABOUT BEING BORN AGAIN! I believe this PRINCIPLE is also all over the Book of Revelation! 5. Your statement, "This means to overcome sin yourself" is not Biblical anywhere in the Bible. Jesus Christ overcame sin because like Matthew chapter seven states Jesus Christ was a "good tree" and as a "good tree" Jesus Christ could do nothing but produce "good fruit". Jesus Christ did precisely that. I believe John chapter fifteen says the same thing! 6. Thus, John, Paul, and Jesus Christ are all in agreement! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Again Miz3, you are wrong on this issue as the bible is not the one to measure truth by. The ONLY thing to measure truth by is the words of Jesus Christ and since He verified the Law and the Prophets, then that too is to be used to measure truth by. God created man as a human, not as any spriritual being. Thus, humans are mortal and are going to die, with or without sin. All humans were given the power to choose to obey God and keep living, or not and die the first death AND the second death forever. It is NOT sinful nature, it is "human nature" that Jesus took upon Himself in order to prove one can and must keep all of the ten commandments. He said to follow Him. The ONLY way one can follow Him is to make that choice to obey as Jesus did. Those who obey are the only ones who can righfully accept the 'bond' or ransom that Jesus paid for the penalty of sin. The only way that Christ can be 'in' anyone is for the Holy Spirit to dwell with both the one who is righteous and with Jesus Christ. Quote
miz3 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Again Miz3, you are wrong on this issue as the bible is not the one to measure truth by. The ONLY thing to measure truth by is the words of Jesus Christ and since He verified the Law and the Prophets, then that too is to be used to measure truth by. God created man as a human, not as any spriritual being. Thus, humans are mortal and are going to die, with or without sin. All humans were given the power to choose to obey God and keep living, or not and die the first death AND the second death forever. It is NOT sinful nature, it is "human nature" that Jesus took upon Himself in order to prove one can and must keep all of the ten commandments. He said to follow Him. The ONLY way one can follow Him is to make that choice to obey as Jesus did. Those who obey are the only ones who can righfully accept the 'bond' or ransom that Jesus paid for the penalty of sin. The only way that Christ can be 'in' anyone is for the Holy Spirit to dwell with both the one who is righteous and with Jesus Christ. What you wrote is just confused jibberish! Have you not been listening? I showed you from Matthew chapter seven how Jesus Christ's own Words cited by an eyewitness etch in granite the Principle that humans are what they are because of what they are. A good tree bears good fruit because it is a good tree. It is not because the good tree had a choice as to what fruit it would produce. It produced fruit that was consistent with what it was because it was what it was. NO CHOICE INVOLVED! This means that your theology and/or gospel is actually much different than what Matthew chapter seven is stating. This can mean only one thing. You do NOT AGREE WITH THE EYEWITNESSES OF JESUS CHRIST. More important, YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH JESUS CHRIST'S OWN WORD! Thus I have indeed proved my point using only the Words of Jesus Christ which is as you assert your only measure of Truth! Thus, your own Authority agrees with me and DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU! Quote
Dr. Rich Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Don't be silly. Humans have human nature. God gave each a right to choose. Your choice is yours. You either choose a lie or the truth. Quote
miz3 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Well folks we have it black and white. Dr. Rich does not accept his own Authority! I guess this boils down to whatever suits your fancy that is what you believe! Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 6, 2011 Posted July 6, 2011 Miz3, You asked the question "Have you not been listening?" I think what you meant was, "Have you not been hearing?" I have certainly been 'listening' to you and your misguided concepts of truth brought about by your believing in and practicing a lie. You believe an earthly source (Paul, EGW, etc.) has the same authority as a Heavenly source (Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit). You (and I will acknowledge) honestly believe that the Holy Spirit inspired these humans in which you have faith to write what they wrote, which in your mind just MUST be the truth. To make this credible in your mind you use circular reasoning to justify your beliefs in these people so that you can believe what you think they has said as if it were the very words of God. I don't blame you for this, as I was once in exactly the same place as are you. The difference between you and me is that when faced with certain facts I changed my position and made a decision based on the lowest common denominator of truth, the words and teachings of Jesus Christ; you have not, yet. And now because I (and Dr. Rich) don't respond positively to your ideas about truth you accuse me/us of not listening, when in fact we are listening, we are just not hearing what you say; that is because we do not believe it to be true. We could easily lie to you and say that we agree with your positions but that in itself would be a lie on top of a lie. And since I (we) am a bondservant of Jesus Christ it is my duty to have no lie in my mouth I cannot and will not lie just to make you happy or satisfied that I believe your truth. Neither would I want the same thing from you. What I want is for the truth of God to be seen in His Kingdom, and right now it is not. I do know that soon it will be made known to those who are open and honest, and who will not let personal issues cloud their insight so they will see and hear the truth when it is presented. For most SDA's this will not happen until when at midnight the cry is given "The Bridegroom IS HERE, come out to meet Him", and all ten sleeping bridesmaids wake up, at which time they will need to decide what is true. This had not yet happened. So until then, miz3, I hope you have sweet dreams. Quote
Sonny Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 6. The Law was answered by God and Jesus Christ on the Cross! How? The sinner must die, not the innocent.... Quote
Sonny Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 Quote: Sonny wrote: "There is nothing in Scripture about the OT lamb "symbolizing" Holy Flesh." This is your term Sonny! I never said anything about "Holy Flesh"! The Bible only states what I have stated! Define "Holy Flesh"! See Ellen White. Quote
Sonny Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 Quote: "The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats."Exodus 12:5. "without defect" is referring to the animals CONDITION and is NOT REFERRING to the animals PERFORMANCE! If animals were sinless (not effected by the fall) then they wouldn't die. With out defect refers to the outward appearance. You really need to get away from the symbols and to the reality - Christ. Quote
Sonny Posted July 6, 2011 Author Posted July 6, 2011 Is the Bible telling an untruth when it refers to these men, Job and Noah as perfect or blameless? They had sinful natures. Quote
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