"In Christ" - the gospel explained

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Did you notice the text says, "body"! That means a human covering of flesh!

Where did YOU die? Answer: In the body of Christ. This body, which is our body, died....What type of body do you have? Here's Paul:

Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me....22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man, 23 but I see a different law in my members (my humanity), warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul is here talking about our condition.

No mention of Christ's condition is stated here.

[Sonny]

I think this ties into the idea of Christ "clothing" Himelf with a fallen human body.

Christ is God, yet He took into Himself our fallen life.

Reverse this: Christ in you....If you are a believer Christ is in you, through the Holy SPirit. Does that make the HS sinful? No! Does it make you God? No....The two of you coexist in one humanity.

[Sonny]

Paul is here talking about our condition

yes, bingo....Our condition is we have a nature that is self-seeking and sinful. That life died in Christ. Where did Christ get this life from?

[Dr. Rich]

Miz3, as Jack S. wrote, Paul's gospel is not the same as what the disciples of Christ preached. But many would not agree because Paul also wrote that he would become anything and anyone just to please those he was with and to get them to believe him. This is deception in no better language. It is also why there are so many denominations in the Christian world today. No, Jesus would never lie in this manner.

It is Paul's word against his own word that causes all of the problems seen on this blog and many other blogs and books. No one but Paul could verify where he got his information from. Paul testified that it was Jesus, but Paul never knew Jesus so how could he know for sure? It is the test found in Jn. 14:26 that must be used to test all other words.

Miz3, I have been there and done that and what you wrote is exactly what I too believed at one time in my life. In fact, I believed it for over 30 years! why? Because I learned it the same way you did--from tridation.

So, good luck with your present understanding as it will not do any good to argue facts with someone who has built their belief upon faith.

By the way, those in Asia had first learned about Jesus Christ through the disicples of Christ, one of them being Lazarus and another Zackias. There is lots more information in regards to the history of religion other than what you find in the bible.

[miz3]

Quote:

Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me....22 For I delight in God's law after the inward man, 23 but I see a different law in my members (my humanity), warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

Notice the language Sonny:

1. Verse seventeen says "dwells within me" (inner nature where the lusts are}. Not the outer nature or flesh!

2. Verse twenty two states that the man of Romans would like to keep the Law and would like the Law of God to be in his inner parts which it is not now.

3. Verse twenty three states that instead of the Law of God he finds a different law (the sinful nature) is really ruling the inner parts. This "sinful nature" fights against what the man of Romans seven wants to do in his mind. This sinful nature destroys the desire of his mind and as the text states, "brings me into captivity under the law of sin" which is the law that rules his inside and makes his outside do evil!

Read the text correctly! You are trying to change the true meaning of the clear unambiguous Word of God. I stated the True clear unambiguous Word of God as the text itself clearly states!

You are trying to change the language of the text to fit your erroneous views.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

It does not say anything about us "all being in Christ at the incarnation".

Who cares right now....The point is that you were "in Christ"....Forget time right now, you were in Christ when you died. What type of humanity do you have? A fallen life, indwelt with a sin nature. Where were you when you died? In Christ. So "in Christ" your humanity existed, which has a fallen nature. That humanity died forever. Now, you have a sinless humanity "in Christ" in the heavenly places. The old died 2000 years ago.

I have no problem with Christ bearing my sin at the crucifixion Sonny.

But you are are talking about Christ bearing my sin before that point.

That is the point where I have to disagree, because I do not see any biblical evidence for that claim.

And this text does not supply that either.

It is dealing with the crucifixion, not the incarnation.

And I think this is a major error, to impart sin to Christ at the incarnation, rather than the cross.

[Twilight II]

Originally Posted By: Twilight II

I think this ties into the idea of Christ "clothing" Himelf with a fallen human body.

Christ is God, yet He took into Himself our fallen life.

Reverse this: Christ in you....If you are a believer Christ is in you, through the Holy SPirit. Does that make the HS sinful? No! Does it make you God? No....The two of you coexist in one humanity.

I know of no bible text which expressely states Christ "took into Himself" our nature.

[John317]

... you can't prove that it was the true Jesus Christ that spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, nor can you prove that Jesus Christ revealed anything to Paul including the gospel that Paul preached that was different from the gospel that Jesus taught to His own disciples, the Gospel of the Kingdom.

All you have is Paul's own words about what happened, you don't have any corroborating witnesses that what Paul said really happened.

And you don't have any corroborating witness that John the Revelator actually saw what he claims to have seen, do you?

Do you have corroborating evidence that John heard Jesus say everything he records in his Gospel?

There is actually very good evidence that Paul was a genuine apostle and that his letters to the church are of God. That evidence, like the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the book of Revelation, consists, first, of the fulfillment of prophecy, and second, the testimony of virtually all Christians down through the ages since the time of John. Thirdly, there is the witness of the influence upon the lives of all the tens of millions of readers of those letters. Fourthly, there's the historical veracity of the book of Acts in its detailed account of the life and teachings of the Apostle Paul. Paul's conversion and life, and the work that he did in the building up of the church of God, are all postive proofs that he was a genuine apostle sent by God to spread the Good News of salvation to the world. Finally, whether you admit it or not, there is the evidence that Paul's teachings are in agreement with the rest of the Bible.

[Sonny]

1. Verse seventeen says "dwells within me" (inner nature where the lusts are}. Not the outer nature or flesh!

Please, stop the gibberish.

[Sonny]

I have no problem with Christ bearing my sin at the crucifixion Sonny.

Stop it....Paul doesn't say this. He says that when Christ died, you died. Paul says YOU died in the humanity of Christ.

[Sonny]

I know of no bible text which expressely states Christ "took into Himself" our nature.

Dude....I really can't deal with the illogical reasoning that I'm reading from both you and Miz3. Of course miz3 is the worst.

Look, YOU died 2000 years ago!

Where?

In Christ!

Do you have sin dwelling in you?

Yes!

Then Christ, because He assumed YOU, had within Him our fallen nature.

Why?

Because YOU were in Him.

[Sonny]

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption." [Ellen G. White]

There are two ways for God to be true to His law and yet take believing sinners to heaven. Really there's one, but for argument sake, two.

1] Infused grace

Notice Ellen's reference: "By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was not done by going out of Himself to another....."

Christ didn't save you by coming into YOUR life and actually making you positively righteous so that the law would be happy with your performance. That's what the RCC teaches. That God actually makes you righteous and therefore you have the right to enter heaven.

The problem with this is no one's measuring up to Christ's life. For one all have sinned...and secondly all are falling short of God's agape love.

2] In Christ

Notice again how God saved you - "by taking humanity into Himself"

In Him you were made obedient, that is, He defeated "sin in the flesh" for over thirty years. And then at the cross your old life came to an end, in Christ.

This answers the law!

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

... you can't prove that it was the true Jesus Christ that spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, nor can you prove that Jesus Christ revealed anything to Paul including the gospel that Paul preached that was different from the gospel that Jesus taught to His own disciples, the Gospel of the Kingdom.

All you have is Paul's own words about what happened, you don't have any corroborating witnesses that what Paul said really happened.

And you don't have any corroborating witness that John the Revelator actually saw what he claims to have seen, do you?

Do you have corroborating evidence that John heard Jesus say everything he records in his Gospel?

There is actually very good evidence that Paul was a genuine apostle and that his letters to the church are of God. That evidence, like the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the book of Revelation, consists, first, of the fulfillment of prophecy, and second, the testimony of virtually all Christians down through the ages since the time of John. Thirdly, there is the witness of the influence upon the lives of all the tens of millions of readers of those letters. Fourthly, there's the historical veracity of the book of Acts in its detailed account of the life and teachings of the Apostle Paul. Paul's conversion and life, and the work that he did in the building up of the church of God, are all postive proofs that he was a genuine apostle sent by God to spread the Good News of salvation to the world. Finally, whether you admit it or not, there is the evidence that Paul's teachings are in agreement with the rest of the Bible.

Certainly there is corroborating evidence that John was given true testimony in the prophecy of Revelation; that corroboration comes from Jesus Christ Himself who chose John to be one of His eyewitness disciples from the beginning of the ministry of Jesus. Paul holds no such authority as an eyewitness disciple of Jesus Christ while He was here on earth.

This, of course, will not be good enough for you, because you love the ministry of Paul over that of the ministry of Jesus Christ. Paul says what you want to hear; Jesus says what you don't want to hear.

Choose you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

[Sonny]

Paul says what you want to hear; Jesus says what you don't want to hear

Paul will tell you that you aren't measuring up, yet he will also tell you not to enjoy the flesh as a lifestyle like before you were converted.

Without Paul you'll go headlong in legalism. That's why Paul wrote to the Galatians. They had your problem, Musicaman!

[miz3]

Dude....I really can't deal with the illogical reasoning that I'm reading from both you and Miz3. Of course miz3 is the worst.

I am afraid that you can't deal with the Bible and what it actually says. It has nothing to do with logic. It has to do with Bible Fact! It is the Fact that you have trouble with!

If you think I am the worst then you are not making any sense because I am saying the same thing Twilight says. If we say the same then how can one be worse. It is this kind of wrong logic that you bring to the table all the time. Thus, your logic can not be trusted because of your illogical statements.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

... you can't prove that it was the true Jesus Christ that spoke to Paul on the road to Damascus, nor can you prove that Jesus Christ revealed anything to Paul including the gospel that Paul preached that was different from the gospel that Jesus taught to His own disciples, the Gospel of the Kingdom.

All you have is Paul's own words about what happened, you don't have any corroborating witnesses that what Paul said really happened.

And you don't have any corroborating witness that John the Revelator actually saw what he claims to have seen, do you?

Do you have corroborating evidence that John heard Jesus say everything he records in his Gospel?

There is actually very good evidence that Paul was a genuine apostle and that his letters to the church are of God. That evidence, like the evidence supporting the truthfulness of the book of Revelation, consists, first, of the fulfillment of prophecy, and second, the testimony of virtually all Christians down through the ages since the time of John. Thirdly, there is the witness of the influence upon the lives of all the tens of millions of readers of those letters. Fourthly, there's the historical veracity of the book of Acts in its detailed account of the life and teachings of the Apostle Paul. Paul's conversion and life, and the work that he did in the building up of the church of God, are all postive proofs that he was a genuine apostle sent by God to spread the Good News of salvation to the world. Finally, whether you admit it or not, there is the evidence that Paul's teachings are in agreement with the rest of the Bible.

WHAT? Get out of here with that nonsense! John 14:26 shows that the Holy Spirit only causes those who heard it first to rembember what Jesus said and taught as they (the disicples) were eyewitnesses. John 17:17-20 proves that Jesus actually prayed to His Father for ONLY those of us who read and obey the words of those same disciples as found in the verse above. (Sorry about those of you who Jesus didn't pray for)

Jesus did not even come to this earth to bring the information found in Revelation to the disciple John, He sent His own angel to do this. Why? because IF He had come down to this earth He would have lied because He earlier told the disciples that when He returns, He would eat with them again. This also proves beyound any doubt that the person (entity) that Saul saw was NOT Jesus, but an imposter!

And yes John, as you have said many times before, Paul's teachings DO agree with the some of the rest of the bible, but the opposite is true too, because Paul admitted he would be anyone in order to fool them, that this admission is proof that he would write one thing for the Jews and another for the Gentiles. (What a nice guy) Perhaps Paul was the first real politition. No wonder He wrote Romans 13 for the Roman officials!

[Sonny]

YOU died 2000 years ago!

Where?

In Christ!

Do you have sin dwelling in you?

Yes!

Then Christ, because He assumed YOU, had within Him our fallen nature.

Why?

Because YOU were in Him.

[skyblue888]

[Musicman1228]

Sky said [Correction: John3:17 said], "What "flesh" was the apostle John writing about? Obviously the same flesh that fallen humans have."

It is NOT obvious to me that Jesus came in the same exact flesh that is all humanity. The DNA that Jesus possessed was given to Him by His Father (God the Almighty) and His Mother (the Holy Spirit) and did not come through any human agency (Luke 1:35, among others).

Mary had sinful flesh, passed down to her through countless generations of those in whom sin dwelt, even down to her DNA. If Jesus acquired ANY of this sinful DNA He could not have been named by the angel "the Son of God". No 'Son of God' can have any sin in Him (or her, as the case may be).

I have said this time and again and yet no one has proven from Scripture that I have misstated the facts: Jesus was the Passover Lamb, that died to pay the penalty for the disobedience of the progenitors of the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, Adam and Eve, and thus the entire K of H. If Jesus had ANY sin in Him in ANY FORM then He would have been unsuitable to be the Passover Lamb, and therefore unsuitable to pay that penalty. If this is the case then all those who would claim membership in the Kingdom of Heaven would be lost because the sacrifice for the penalty would have been unsuitable; that sacrifice had to be sinless.

If you disagree with this assessment please prove it by using OT Scripture and the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His eyewitness disciples.

[John317]

Sky said, "What "flesh" was the apostle John writing about? Obviously the same flesh that fallen humans have."

I made that statement, not sky. Sky quoted me. This is why it is important to use the "Quote" "Quick Quote" correctly. It avoids confusion as to who said what.

[miz3]

YOU died 2000 years ago!

Where?

In Christ!

Do you have sin dwelling in you?

Yes!

Then Christ, because He assumed YOU, had within Him our fallen nature.

Why?

Because YOU were in Him.

Your problem is there is no Bible support for this stuff!

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

YOU died 2000 years ago!

Where?

In Christ!

Do you have sin dwelling in you?

Yes!

Then Christ, because He assumed YOU, had within Him our fallen nature.

Why?

Because YOU were in Him.

Your problem is there is no Bible support for this stuff!

Again, Romans 6:6 & Romans 7:4.

[miz3]

Again, Romans 6:6 & Romans 7:4.

We have shown you conclusively that these texts do not support your position.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Sonny

Again, Romans 6:6 & Romans 7:4.

We have shown you conclusively that these texts do not support your position.

You have never done that! Never....May I remind you of the 9th commandment....

[miz3]

Sonny,

I have told the truth. Why?

Because the Bible says I did!

You rely on Jack S. for your inspiration. I rely on the Bible!

I'll take the Bible over Jack S. every single time!