DanielMunoz Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 As Seventh-day Adventists we study the prophecies following the principle that the Scriptures are explained by the Scriptures themselves. Following that principle we understand that, among other things, a day stands for a year, and that if waters mean “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues”, then earth should mean a place with just a few people. In this post I will discuss a so far unknown principle for prophecy interpretation along with one instance (Revelation 13) of its application in prophecy. There is another instance of it in Daniel 8 with the threefold inverted gadal structure, which I will discuss in another post. The principle The same night that the Medo-Persian empire was going to replace the Babylonian empire in the Near East's dominion, Daniel said to king Belshazzar: “thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone” (Daniel 5:23). The listed materials are the same than the materials in the Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the great image (Daniel 2), except for the wood, that is taking the place of the clay (maybe there were not idols of clay, but of wood). And the materials are listed in the same order that they appeared in the dream, except the gold and the silver, which are in reverse order. William H. Shea explains[1] that it would seem that Daniel was saying in a subtle way that the silver –Medo-Persia– was taking the place of the gold –Babylon. The principle here would be that the arrangement of the words could have a subtle meaning. I believe that I have been able to identify two instances of this principle along with their respective meaning. In this study I will discuss one of those instances. The instance The instance is found in Revelation 13. The beast of Revelation 12 has “seven heads and ten horns” while the first beast of Revelation 13 has “ten horns and seven heads” (Revelation 13:1, NIV). It would be the same, but in reverse order. The translations usually render “seven heads and ten horns” in Revelation 13:1, but in the Greek text the horns comes before the heads. The New International Version renders it correctly. But, what does it mean? It may be seen that the beast of Revelation 12 is suspiciously similar to the first beast of Revelation 13. There is a difference in their appearance, but both have 7 heads and 10 horns. Furthermore, both beasts are active during the same period of time, the one called: the 1260 days, or the 42 months, or the 3½ times. As Seventh-day Adventists we identify that period as the one lasting from 538 A.D. to 1798 A.D. We also consider the beast of Rev. 12 as being Satan acting throughout Rome, and the first beast of Rev. 13 as being the Papacy. I would propose to consider the last as being also primarily Satan, but Satan acting throughout the Papacy. This consideration would explain the similarity. The 7 heads and 10 horns would therefore belong to Satan himself, and not to Rome nor to the Papacy. The papacy would only be one of Satan's heads –that would explain why only one head of the first beast of Rev. 13 was wounded: the Papacy is only one head of him. Now I want to focus on the differences. The beast or Rev. 12 was a red dragon, and the crowns were on his heads, while the first beast of Rev. 13 “was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion” (Rev. 13:2), and the crowns were on his horns, and “upon his heads the name of blasphemy” (Rev. 13:1). I will use now the principle that “the arrangement of the words could have a subtle meaning” in an attempt to explain those differences. As said above, the beast of Rev. 12 has “seven heads and ten horns” while the first beast of Rev. 13 has “ten horns and seven heads” (Revelation 13:1, NIV). It would seem that John is staring at the same beast, but from a different angle. He said that he “saw a beast” (v.1), and he emphasizes that “the beast which I saw...” (v. 2). It would seem that in Rev. 12 John was staring at the beast from an angle from where he saw first the heads and then the horns, but in Rev. 13 he is staring at the beast from an angle where he saw first the horns and then the heads. It also seems that this last angle –the one of Rev. 13– shows the beast from his end towards his beginning, from the future to the past, in retrospect. This may be inferred because of the order in which John describes his appearance: “was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion”. It is exactly the inverse order in which the beasts of Daniel 7 appeared in history. The appearance It can be inferred then that the appearance of the beast changes accordingly to where in time he is being seen from. So if in Rev. 13 John is staring at the beast from his end towards his past in a retrospective view, it would seem that the appearance of the beast in Rev. 13 is the appearance that the beast would have in his last attack. The Rev. 12's attack –seen from the beginning of that attack– looks like a pagan attack (dragon-like attack) which kills the people of God –the red color of the dragon could mean blood. But the Rev. 13's attack –seen from the end of that attack– doesn't look pagan anymore (not dragon-like), and it also seems that the people of God will not be killed on that attack (not red anymore), but will be delivered from it. Daniel 12:1 says of that attack: “at that time thy people shall be delivered”, and Rev. 17:14 says that “the Lamb shall overcome them”. Ellen G. White says about that last attack: “So I saw that the people of God, who had faithfully warned the world of His coming wrath, would be delivered. God would not suffer the wicked to destroy those who were expecting translation and who would not bow to the decree of the beast or receive his mark. I saw that if the wicked were permitted to slay the saints, Satan and all his evil host, and all who hate God, would be gratified. And oh, what a triumph it would be for his satanic majesty to have power, in the last closing struggle, over those who had so long waited to behold Him whom they loved! Those who have mocked at the idea of the saints' going up will witness the care of God for His people and behold their glorious deliverance.” - The Story of Redemption, p. 408. John says that "the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion" (Rev. 13:2). In the same way that the beast's appearance resembles the beasts of Daniel 7, this final attack will also resemble those beasts' attacks. “The Holy Spirit represents” those “worldly kingdoms under the symbol of fierce beasts of prey”[2]. The weapons that the beasts of prey use to attack are their speed, their teeth and their claws. It can be seen that John describes all those weapons in the beast of Rev. 13. His appearance (speed weapon) is the appearance of a leopard. His mouth (teeth weapon) is the mouth of a lion. And his feet (claws weapons) are the feet of a Bear. The order of the attack The fourth beast of Daniel 7 is not referred here by John, but I believe that it is implicit. That beast didn't have an appearance that could be described, but it had an order of attack: “it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it” (Daniel 7:7). So the order of the last attack will be first with the mouth, then with the feet, and all with the speed of a leopard. The Leopard The Greek leopard was very fast. It was a leopard with four wings, and the He Goat that matches the Greek leopard in Daniel 8 was so fast that it didn't touch the ground. Alexander is known in history for the speed of his conquer. So will be the last attack of the beast of Rev. 13, “the final movements will be rapid ones”[3]. The Lion To find how will be the lion's mouth attack we must find a Babylonian attack against the people of God from which the people of God was delivered. There is only one attack like that in history, and it is found in Daniel 3. The attack was the setting of a false cult under death penalty. The people of God was faithful and was delivered from that attack. The last attack will then begin with the setting of a false cult –Sunday worship– whose disobedience will be punished with death. Ellen G. White says: “As Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon issued a decree that all who would not bow down and worship this image should be killed, so a proclamation will be made that all who will not reverence the Sunday institution will be punished with imprisonment and death... Let all read carefully the thirteenth chapter of Revelation, for it concerns every human agent, great and small.” --14MR 91 (1896)[4]. The bear The bear had two feet, one for Media and one for Persia –it seems that the feet represented the two kingdoms because “it raised up itself on one side” (Daniel 7:5) as if one foot (kingdom) was stronger than the other. We find exactly one Median attack from which the people of God was delivered, and one Persian attack from which the people of God was delivered. The Median attack is the one found in Daniel 6: Daniel in the lion's den. It was not only the setting of a false cult, but also the prohibition of the true cult. The last attack will not only set the Sunday as day of worship but will forbid the seventh-day Sabbath. “Especially will the wrath of man be aroused against those who hallow the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and at last a universal decree will denounce these as deserving of death”[5]. The Persian attack is the one found in the book of Esther. It was about a decree to destroy the people of God that was “scattered abroad and dispersed among the people” because “their laws are diverse from all people; neither keep they the king's laws” (Esther 3:8). But “when the king's commandment and his decree drew near to be put in execution, in the day that the enemies of the Jews hoped to have power over them, (though it was turned to the contrary, that the Jews had rule over them that hated them;)” (Esther 9:1). So will be delivered the people of God from that last decree: “at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book” (Daniel 12:1). Ellen G. White says: “The decree that will finally go forth against the remnant people of God will be very similar to that issued by Ahasuerus against the Jews.” - Prophets and Kings, p. 605. “As the time appointed in the decree draws near, the people will conspire to root out the hated sect. It will be determined to strike in one night a decisive blow, which shall utterly silence the voice of dissent and reproof... It is now, in the hour of utmost extremity, that the God of Israel will interpose for the deliverance of His chosen.” - Great Controversy, p. 635. The crowns The fact that in the Beast of Rev. 12 the crowns are on his heads, and in the one of Rev. 13 they are on their horns could mean that in the beginning Satan attacked throughout the empires (like Rome), and at the end the focus seems to be in the diverse kingdoms (Rev. 17:12-14). Or it could also mean that, as the seven empires reign first, and the ten kingdoms reign at the end, the beast of Rev. 12 has the crowns on the heads as the beast is being seen from his beginning. But the beast of Rev. 13 has the crows on the horns because as he is being seen inverted in time, from his end towards his beginning, and the horns reign last, it would seem that the horns are reigning (at that end-time), and the heads are not reigning yet, because they reigned more in the past. Anyway I am not sure about the crown's meaning. The name of blasphemy The fact that in his “pagan” phase the beast didn't have a name of blasphemy, and in its “not pagan” (Christian?) phase it has names of blasphemy, could mean that it is pointing to papacy's blasphemies. But I am not sure of it, because I cannot explain the difference of the names being written on the heads (Rev. 13) and the names being written on the beast himself (Rev. 17). I say that because I consider the beast of Rev. 17 being primarily the same (Satan), but being seen from, perhaps, a time of religious freedom (no crowns). Conclusion The last attack will be a rapid one (like a leopard) that will combine, in the order used by the fourth beast of Daniel 7, the following: The setting of a false worship, that will be Sunday worship (Lion's mouth). The prohibition of the true worship, that will be the prohibition of the seventh-day Sabbath (Median foot). A last death decree against the transgressors of human laws that will allow the wicked to kill the people of God like did the Ahasuerus decree against the Jews. But the people of God will be delivered from it (Persian foot). 1 See Daniel: A Reader's guide. In the Spanish version it is on page 64. 2 Ellen G. White. Christ's Object Lessons, p. 77. 3 Ellen G. White. Testimonies, vol 9, p. 11. 4 Quoted from Last Day Events, p. 257. 5 Ellen G. White. Prophets and Kings, p. 512 Quote Daniel Muñoz
Musicman1228 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 Daniel, you have some interesting ideas which I will be glad to discuss with you on this thread. But you start by making a statement as to how prophecy should be studied, then you take it back by making an interpretation that does not come from prophecy; Daniel said, "As Seventh-day Adventists we study the prophecies following the principle that the Scriptures are explained by the Scriptures themselves. Following that principle we understand that, among other things, a day stands for a year, and that if waters mean “peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues”, then earth should mean a place with just a few people." Yes, water does mean peoples, and multitudes and nations, and tongues". Then you completely disregard your own instruction by suggesting that the earth means a 'place with just a few people'. This would mean that the 2nd Beast of Rev. 13 that comes out of the earth would be coming out of 'just a few people'. Here is the text: Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. (12) It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. Rev.13:11-12. Verse 12 speaks of the 'earth and it's inhabitants'. If 'inhabitants' are people then this means that the 'earth' actually means the literal earth, as in the planet earth. The traditional Adventist understanding is that this 2nd Beast is the good old USA; but given your correct instruction that the prophecy will reveal the meaning of symbols within the prophecy I don't see where the USA is seen anywhere else in the entire prophecy. This means that this 2nd Beast must be something or someone actually defined as 'coming up out of the earth' somewhere else in the Revelation prophecy. And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. Rev.9:1. A 'star' is a heavenly being, such as an angels. 'Fallen to from heaven to earth' defines something that literally happened to this 'heavenly being'. Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, (8) but he was defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. (9) And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Rev. 12:7-9. Note that this verse precedes the verse in question and gives an explicit answer to why this 'angel' was cast down to the earth. The earth here is literal. It also identifies the dragon as Satan or the devil. They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon. Rev.9:11. This verse identifies specifically the angel that is the King of the angels that are cast down from heaven to earth. This angel is called by names that give it's identity - Satan. Therefore, the 2nd Beast of Rev 13 is not the USA it is Satan. And this all because of the fact that your initial statement as to how to interpret prophecy is true and accurately used. I will take some time to consider your other idea that word positioning means different perspective related to time and timing. I find it interesting, but I will reserve my acceptance of this understanding when I have spent more time and energy on it. God bless you as you study truth. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 What are they, dgrimm60? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 Here is the text: Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. (12) It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. Rev.13:11-12. ... the 2nd Beast of Rev 13 is not the USA it is Satan. Chapter 13 of Revelation tells us about two different beasts, the first one of which is a worldly power through which Satan works in order to make war against the saints of God. Satan can't attack God or Christ, of course, but he can and does attack the people of God. Therefore, since the beasts, or animals, in Daniel and Revelation are symbols of various earthly powers, or nations, it is mostly likely that this second beast of Rev. 13 is likewise a worldly power through which Satan works in order to make war against God's people. The description that we have in this chapter proves that this is true. Let's examine the characterisitcs of this second beast: 1) The second beast has two horns like a lamb but it speaks like a dragon(13: 11). 2) This beast with the lamb-like horns exercises all the authority, or power, of the first beast--- and he exercises this power in the presence of the first beast. (Therefore these powers are contemporaneous.)(13: 12) 3) This second beast causes the people of the earth to worship the first beast.(13: 12) 4) This second beast is able to perform great signs (marvelous deeds)and deceives the people of the earth by those signs, which he does in the sight of the first beast.(13: 13, 14) 5) The second beast tells the people of the earth to make an image to the first beast.(13: 14) 6) Then this second beast is given power to give breath (life) to the image of the first beast. (13:15) 7) This second beast is able to make the image of the first beast speak. The image of the first beast also causes people who won't worship the image to be killed. (13: 15) 8) This second beast also causes almost all the people of the earth to receive a mark on their right hand or on their forehead so that no one can buy or sell unless they have the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.(13: 16, 17) 9) The number of the beast is the number of a man, and that number is 666.The 20th Century Translation reads, "Let him who has the ability to compute the number of the Beast; for the number indicates a man's name. Its number is six hundred and sixty-six."(13:18) QUESTION: Do the descriptions of the second beast apply to Satan personally? Does the Bible teach that Satan personally does the things that are described above? Or does Satan work through earthly powers to accomplish his purposes? For instance, does Satan have two horns like a lamb but speak like a dragon? Does Satan personally make the people of the world worship the first beast, or does Satan work through various powers to compel false worship? Compare Satan's tactics in Daniel 3: 8-21. Especially notice that the number referred to in verse 18 is the number of a man's name. This part of verse 18 could also read, "It is the number of man[kind]." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
DanielMunoz Posted July 11, 2011 Author Posted July 11, 2011 Thank you all for your interest and your replies. I'll take my time to answer them so it could take some time. Musicman. The other instance of the principle that I present here explains why the USA would be the new land of the people of God and that the papacy would be toward the South (From Mexico to Argentina), toward the East (Europe) and toward he pleasant land (The Kingdom of Jerusalem in the middle ages). I will answer your questions but you can already see part of my answer in this post , which is the application of this same principle to Daniel 8. God bless. Quote Daniel Muñoz
cheddar Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 I do believe that Ellen White said that Satan would call fire down out of heaven in the sight of men. The 2nd beast does this - why didn't you list this in your long list of characteristics? Elijah and Solomon called fire down out of heaven - 2 examples of people doing this, not a country. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 John317 said, "Chapter 13 of Revelation tells us about two different beasts, the first one of which is a worldly power through which Satan works in order to make war against the saints of God. Satan can't attack God or Christ, of course, but he can and does attack the people of God." I agree with the second sentence and disagree with the first. Here is why. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. Rev.1:13. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. Dan. 7:7. This 1st Beast of Rev. 13 is different from the beasts in Daniel 7 in that those beasts in Daniel 7 at that time were civil authority, and the composite Beast of Rev. 13 is a combination of civil and religious. Note that the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 has BLASPHEMOUS heads; how many? Seven (7). Therefore, this beast cannot be the same as the 4th Beast of Dan. 7 because that beast had only ONE (1) head with Ten (10) horns; they are totally different. There is also another critical difference between these two beasts; This 4th beast was the Roman Empire, that later claimed the prerogatives of God by becoming the Holy Roman Empire, thus blaspheming God. The other 3 did not do this. This is important to remember. Another difference is that three of the beasts of Daniel 7 (Lion, Bear, Leopard) do not have blasphemous names in their original iteration (as mentioned above) when they exercised power to rule. The only entity that can blaspheme is one that has taken the prerogatives of God upon itself, thereby ACTING in the capacity of God in ruling over it's people. The reason that the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 was removed from power and completely destroyed forever and will never be seen again (Dan. 7:26) is that it had already taken the opportunity to play the role of 'God', and will not get another opportunity to do that again. God destroyed it BECAUSE it blasphemed Him. I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. (12) As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. Dan. 7:11-12. This 1st Beast of Rev. 13 is like the beasts of Daniel 7 except for this notable omission: In Rev 13 there is NO MENTION of the 4th beast of Dan. 7 - the Great and Terrible beast that was the Holy Roman Empire that blasphemed God. It is significantly MISSING from the other empires that had been granted an extension of life but had lost their authority to rule. Why? Because the God of Heaven utterly destroyed it for blaspheme. The Bear, the Leopard and the Lion are all represented in this final beast, and they were granted an extension of life because although they acted in an evil manner they DID NOT blaspheme God at the time they were in power. All Seven (7) of the heads of the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 have blasphemous names as they ride the body of the beast made up of elements of Babylon, Persia/Media, and Greece. It is when this happens that this Beast will claim the prerogatives of God, thereby blaspheming God to His face, which is why this beast will ultimately be destroyed forever just as was the 4th Beast of Daniel 7. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 I do believe that Ellen White said that Satan would call fire down out of heaven in the sight of men. The 2nd beast does this - why didn't you list this in your long list of characteristics? It's included here: #4) This second beast is able to perform great signs (marvelous deeds)and deceives the people of the earth by those signs, which he does in the sight of the first beast.(13: 13, 14) Ellen G. White does mention Satan in relation to this verse, but elsewhere she makes it clear that Satan doesn't do the miracles himself personally but rather he works through his agents: Quote: Men are deceived by the miracles which Satan's agents have power to do, not which they pretend to do. {GC 553.2} Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 Here are some important statements by Ellen White relevent to Rev. 13: 13,14-- Quote: Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers. Satan also works, with lying wonders, even bringing down fire from heaven in the sight of men. Revelation 13:13. Thus the inhabitants of the earth will be brought to take their stand. {GC 612.1} The message will be carried not so much by argument as by the deep conviction of the Spirit of God. The arguments have been presented. The seed has been sown, and now it will spring up and bear fruit. The publications distributed by missionary workers have exerted their influence, yet many whose minds were impressed have been prevented from fully comprehending the truth or from yielding obedience. Now the rays of light penetrate everywhere, the truth is seen in its clearness, and the honest children of God sever the bands which have held them. Family connections, church relations, are powerless to stay them now. Truth is more precious than all besides. Notwithstanding the agencies combined against the truth, a large number take their stand upon the Lord's side. {GC 612.2} 11. A Unique Symbol.--Here is a striking figure of the rise and growth of our own nation. And the lamblike horns, emblems of innocence and gentleness, well represent the character of our government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, republicanism and Protestantism (4SP 277). {7BC 975.3} Shield of Omnipotence Over America.--The United States is a land that has been under the special shield of the Omnipotent One. God has done great things for this country, but in the transgression of His law, men have been doing a work originated by the man of sin. Satan is working out his designs to involve the human family in disloyalty (MS 17, 1906). {7BC 975.4} The Prospect Before Us.--Prophecy represents Protestantism as having lamblike horns, but speaking like a dragon. Already we are beginning to hear the voice of the dragon. There is a satanic force propelling the Sunday movement, but it is concealed. Even the men who are engaged in the work, are themselves blinded to the results which will follow their movement. {7BC 975.5} Let not the commandment-keeping people of God be silent at this time, as though we gracefully accepted the situation. There is the prospect before us of waging a continuous war, at the risk of imprisonment, of losing property and even life itself, to defend the law of God, which is being made void by the laws of men (RH Jan. 1, 1889). {7BC 975.6} 11-17 (ch. 14:9-12; Daniel 7:25; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4; see EGW on Revelation 17:13, 14; 18:1-5). Persecuting Hand of the Enemy.--[Revelation 13:11-13 quoted.] Religious powers, allied to heaven by profession and claiming to have the characteristics of a lamb, will show by their acts that they have the heart of a dragon, and that they are instigated and controlled by Satan. The time is coming when God's people will feel the hand of persecution because they keep holy the seventh day. Satan has caused the change of the Sabbath in the hope of carrying out his purpose for the defeat of God's plans. He seeks to make the commands of God of less force in the world than human laws. {7BC 975.7} The man of sin, who thought to change times and laws, and who has always oppressed the people of God, will cause laws to be made enforcing the observance of the first day of the week. But God's people are to stand firm for Him. And the Lord will work in their behalf, showing plainly that He is the God of gods (MS 135, 1902). {7BC 975.8} Church and the World in Corrupt Harmony.--The Word of God plainly declares that His law is to be scorned, trampled upon, by the world; there will be an extraordinary prevalence of iniquity. The professed Protestant world will form a confederacy with the man of sin, and the church and the world will be in corrupt harmony. {7BC 975.9} Here the great crisis is coming upon the world. The Scriptures teach that popery is to regain its lost supremacy, and that the fires of persecution will be rekindled through the timeserving concessions of the so-called Protestant world (GCB April 13, 1891). {7BC 975.10} 13, 14 (2 Thessalonians 2:7-12; see EGW on ch. 16:13-16; Matthew 7:21-23). Miracles Performed in Our Sight.--The time is at hand when Satan will work miracles to confirm minds in the belief that he is God. All the people of God are now to stand on the platform of truth as it has been given in the third angel's message. All the pleasant pictures, all the miracles wrought, will be presented in order that, if possible, the very elect will be deceived. The only hope for anyone is to hold fast the evidences that have confirmed the truth in righteousness (RH Aug. 9, 1906). {7BC 975.11} Miracles Wrought Under Supervision of the Enemy.--[Matthew 7:21-23 quoted.] These may profess to be followers of Christ, but they have lost sight of their Leader. They may say, "Lord, Lord"; they may point to the sick who are healed through them, and to other marvelous works, and claim that they have more of the Spirit and power of God than is manifested by 976 those who keep His law. But their works are done under the supervision of the enemy of righteousness, whose aim it is to deceive souls, and are designed to lead away from obedience, truth, and duty. In the near future there will be still more marked manifestations of this miracle-working power; for it is said of him, "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men" (ST Feb. 26, 1885). {7BC 975.12} 14. Preparing for the Image of the Beast.--Already preparations are advancing, and movements are in progress, which will result in making an image to the beast. Events will be brought about in the earth's history that will fulfill the predictions of prophecy for these last days (RH April 23, 1889). {7BC 976.1} 14-17 (ch. 14:9-12). Tested by the Image.--The Lord has shown me clearly that the image of the beast will be formed before probation closes; for it is to be the great test for the people of God, by which their eternal destiny will be decided. . . . [Revelation 13:11-17 quoted.] . . . {7BC 976.2} This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who proved their loyalty to God by observing His law, and refusing to accept a spurious sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin and accept the Sunday sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast (Letter 11, 1890). {7BC 976.3} Apostasy and National Ruin.--When the Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution; when the state shall use its power to enforce the decrees and sustain the institutions of the church--then will Protestant America have formed an image to the papacy, and there will be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin (ST March 22, 1910). {7BC 976.4} Continued Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 Continued Quote: The Mark of Apostasy and God's Patience.--There are many who have never had the light. They are deceived by their teachers, and they have not received the mark of the beast. The Lord is working with them; He has not left them to their own ways. Until they shall be convicted of the truth and trample upon the evidence given to enlighten them, the Lord will not withdraw His grace from them (Letter 7, 1895). {7BC 976.5} 15-17 (see EGW on 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4). Perfecting the Device of Satan.--When the legislature frames laws which exalt the first day of the week, and put it in the place of the seventh day, the device of Satan will be perfected (RH April 15, 1890). {7BC 976.6} 16, 17 (Daniel 3:1-18; see EGW on 1 John 2:18). History Will Be Repeated.--History will be repeated. False religion will be exalted. The first day of the week, a common working day, possessing no sanctity whatever, will be set up as was the image at Babylon. All nations and tongues and peoples will be commanded to worship this spurious sabbath. This is Satan's plan to make of no account the day instituted by God, and given to the world as a memorial of creation. {7BC 976.7} The decree enforcing the worship of this day is to go forth to all the world. In a limited degree, it has already gone forth. In several places the civil power is speaking with the voice of a dragon, just as the heathen king spoke to the Hebrew captives. {7BC 976.8} Trial and persecution will come to all who, in obedience to the Word of God, refuse to worship this false sabbath. Force is the last resort of every false religion. At first it tries attraction, as the king of Babylon tried the power of music and outward show. If these attractions, invented by men inspired by Satan, failed to make men worship the image, the hungry flames of the furnace were ready to consume them. So it will be now. The papacy has exercised her power to compel men to obey her, and she will continue to do so. We need the same spirit that was manifested by God's servants in the conflict with paganism (ST May 6, 1897). {7BC 976.9} (Ch. 14:9-12.) Men in Authority to Hear.--God is going to bring around a condition of things where the good men and the men in authority will have an opportunity to know what is truth indeed. And because a people will not bow the knee to the image, and receive the mark of the beast in the hand or the forehead, but will stand to the truth because it is truth, there 977 will be oppression, and an attempt to compel the conscience; but those who have known the truth will be afraid to yield to the powers of darkness. God has a people who will not receive the mark of the beast in their right hand or in their forehead. . . . {7BC 976.10} Not a move has been made in exalting the idol sabbath, in bringing around Sunday observance through legislation, but Satan has been behind it, and has been the chief worker; but the conscience should not be compelled even for the observance of the genuine Sabbath, for God will accept only willing service (RH April 15, 1890). {7BC 977.1} The Law of God Made Void.--A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in our land. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, and thus God's people be brought into great peril. When our nation, in its legislative councils, shall enact laws to bind the consciences of men in regard to their religious privileges, enforcing Sunday observance, and bringing oppressive power to bear against those who keep the seventh-day Sabbath, the law of God will, to all intents and purposes, be made void in our land; and national apostasy will be followed by national ruin (RH Dec. 18, 1888). {7BC 977.2} Contempt for the Great Lawgiver.--The sins of the world will have reached unto heaven when the law of God is made void; when the Sabbath of the Lord is trampled in the dust, and men are compelled to accept in its stead an institution of the papacy through the strong hand of the law of the land. In exalting an institution of man above the institution ordained of God, they show contempt for the great Lawgiver, and refuse His sign or seal (RH Nov. 5, 1889). {7BC 977.3} Prepared for Injustice.--As Christ was hated without cause, so will His people be hated because they are obedient to the commandments of God. If He who was pure, holy, and undefiled, who did good and only good in our world, was treated as a base criminal and condemned to death, His disciples must expect but similar treatment, however faultless may be their life and blameless their character. {7BC 977.4} Human enactments, laws manufactured by satanic agencies under a plea of goodness and restriction of evil, will be exalted, while God's holy commandments are despised and trampled underfoot. And all who prove their loyalty by obedience to the law of Jehovah must be prepared to be arrested, to be brought before councils that have not for their standard the high and holy law of God (RH Dec. 26, 1899). {7BC 977.5} (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4.) Living in a Momentous Period.--We are living in a momentous period of this earth's history. The great conflict is just before us. We see the world corrupted under the inhabitants thereof. The man of sin has worked with a marvelous perseverance to exalt the spurious sabbath, and the disloyal Protestant world has wondered after the beast, and has called obedience to the Sabbath instituted by Jehovah disloyalty to the laws of the nations. Kingdoms have confederated to sustain a false sabbath institution, which has not a word of authority in the oracles of God (RH Feb. 6, 1900). {7BC 977.6} (Ch. 7:2, 3). The Question Before Us Now.--The Sabbath question is to be the issue in the great final conflict, in which all the world will act a part. Men have honored Satan's principles above the principles that rule in the heavens. They have accepted the spurious sabbath, which Satan has exalted as the sign of his authority. But God has set His seal upon His royal requirement. Each Sabbath institution, both true and false, bears the name of its author, an ineffaceable mark that shows the authority of each. {7BC 977.7} The great decision now to be made by every one is, whether he will receive the mark of the beast and his image, or the seal of the living and true God (ST March 22, 1910) {7BC 977.8} Mark of Beast Not Yet Applied.--Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet (MS 118, 1899). {7BC 977.9} Many endeavor to account for spiritual manifestations by attributing them wholly to fraud and sleight of hand on the part of the medium. But while it is true that the results of trickery have often been palmed off as genuine manifestations, there have been, also, marked exhibitions of supernatural power. The mysterious rapping with which modern spiritualism began was not the result of human trickery or cunning, but was the direct work of evil angels, who thus introduced one of the most successful of soul-destroying delusions. Many will be ensnared through the belief that spiritualism is a merely human imposture; when brought face to face with manifestations which they cannot but regard as supernatural, they will be deceived, and will be led to accept them as the great power of God. {GC 553.1} These persons overlook the testimony of the Scriptures concerning the wonders wrought by Satan and his agents. It was by satanic aid that Pharaoh's magicians were enabled to counterfeit the work of God. Paul testifies that before the second advent of Christ there will be similar manifestations of satanic power. The coming of the Lord is to be preceded by "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:9,10. And the apostle John, describing the miracle-working power that will be manifested in the last days, declares: "He doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do." Revelation 13:13, 14. No mere impostures are here foretold. Men are deceived by the miracles which Satan's agents have power to do, not which they pretend to do. {GC 553.2} Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 11, 2011 Moderators Posted July 11, 2011 This 1st Beast of Rev. 13 is different from the beasts in Daniel 7 in that those beasts in Daniel 7 at that time were civil authority, and the composite Beast of Rev. 13 is a combination of civil and religious. Note that the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 has BLASPHEMOUS heads; how many? Seven (7). Therefore, this beast cannot be the same as the 4th Beast of Dan. 7 because that beast had only ONE (1) head with Ten (10) horns; they are totally different. There is also another critical difference between these two beasts; This 4th beast was the Roman Empire, Daniel 7: 7 is describing a different beast from the one described in Rev. 13: 1. The fourth beast is the Roman Empire, for sure. But when or who then is the beast of Rev. 13: 1? More detail about this beast is given in Rev. 17. Do you agree that the horns stand for political powers? (See Rev. 17: 12) Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 that later claimed the prerogatives of God by becoming the Holy Roman Empire, thus blaspheming God. Are you referring to the horn that comes out of the fourth beast (Dan. 7: 8)? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Dr. Rich Posted July 11, 2011 Posted July 11, 2011 So John317, when Satan is let out of the abyss during the last five months of the time of trouble and of this earth's history, what do you suppose the first thing he is going to do? Do you suppose he would be to ugly with the horns on his head to pretend he is Jesus Christ and has come to save the world? Let's get real John317, Satan IS the AntiChrist because it is HIM who first usurped God in this world and became it's ruler, and does not want to loose that rulership. His power is given to the first beast, the NEW and ONE World Order who control the nations of the world by the use of thier money system so that those not wanting to practice a lie will not be able to use this fiat money system. Think "mark". I am willing to bet that Satan will fool the whole world (everyone IN the world) except those who are now in the kingdom of the Heavens. He will do this by making them think that he is the Christ and because of Paul's writings, Christians all over the world will be fooled. This is why Satan goes to battle against those in the KOH who preach the same gosple as what Jesus gave, the gospel of the Kingdom. Since Satan will not have any national sunday law, the stupid Adventists who mistakenly believe this lie will also be fooled. And no, he will not be ugly and have horns! He will say that IF the world refuses to bow down to him and worship the image that he created and now lives, that the world will be destroyed, and this is why everyone will want the two witnesses to be killed as Satan will try to do for those five months but can't. Quote
Truth Files Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Brief response to the OP; The first beast of Revelation is a fallen angelic like Satan [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-14] Satan will be allowed to release Abaddon-Apollyon at the beginning of the coming tribulation period [the Lord's hour [time] of trial against an unbelieving world] [Revelation 9:1; 12:12] This beast rules over 7 specific human kingdoms of the Middle East recorded in the scope of the prophetic visions for Satan and is his "anti-christ" 5 have fallen [the 5th fallen was Syrio/Babylonia just before the first century], and 2 are scheduled for the coming tribulation period [the smaller 6th, and the expanded 7th divided including 10 other human kings [10 horns]] .... the time of the end of this present age Satan will be allowed to incarnate his beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions, a human king of the northern Middle East [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6; 2Thessalonians 2:2-12] This little horn will be a Muslim who will rise in the ancient post-flood land of Magog [the upper Tigris/ Euphrates River basin] He will confederate the core Islamic block of Middle Eastern states who are the same mixed populations of the ancient past existing there today [Assyria, Babylonia, Media, Persia, Turkoman] It is the prince [Abaddon-Apollyon in the little horn] that "shall come" and his followers who will invade, subdue, and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount for 42 months [second 1260 days of the 70th week decreed for Israel] [Daniel 9:26-27; Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 11:2; 12:6; 12:14; 13:5] This beast and his 10 kings will also destroy the "great city" part of MBG [western] on one day .... and he will fend off all other opposition to his ambitions [Daniel 11:40; 11:44] The second beast of Revelation [the false prophet] is also a fallen angelic who will lead the religious cult of Abaddon-Apollyon .... this beast will manifest in 2 human clerics [two horns] The scope of the prophetic scriptures on this subject is a view of the Middle East, past and future Watch the Middle East for these developments .... the current stirring [unrest] there is the setting up for the time of the end to begin [see my post "The Stirring"] I have much more information and related scriptural support for the correct rendering of the related visions of the Bible prophets on these matters if any are interested Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files
Dr. Rich Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Not sure, but could the 2 horns LIKE the Lamb of God (Jesus) be on one horn side, a combination of Christians, Catholics and Jews; and on the other horn side, a combination of Islim, Buddism, and all Eastern religions? Could it be that is why the whole beast has the heads for all of them? Interestingly, they have already divided up Jerusalem into parts so that all of the 7 major religions can have their headquarters there. Since the first beast is like a leopard, (Helenistic, meaning that they accept all religions of man, but NOT those who refuse to be included in the 7 heads), then this would fit the picture of the two 'kings' in Daniel where both of them blame the other for following Satan, but God calls both of them evil. (Dan. 11:27) I am not saying that this is the truth, but it is what I have come up with. Quote
cheddar Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 John317 said, "Chapter 13 of Revelation tells us about two different beasts, the first one of which is a worldly power through which Satan works in order to make war against the saints of God. Satan can't attack God or Christ, of course, but he can and does attack the people of God." I agree with the second sentence and disagree with the first. Here is why. And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. Rev.1:13. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. Dan. 7:7. This 1st Beast of Rev. 13 is different from the beasts in Daniel 7 in that those beasts in Daniel 7 at that time were civil authority, and the composite Beast of Rev. 13 is a combination of civil and religious. Note that the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 has BLASPHEMOUS heads; how many? Seven (7). Therefore, this beast cannot be the same as the 4th Beast of Dan. 7 because that beast had only ONE (1) head with Ten (10) horns; they are totally different. There is also another critical difference between these two beasts; This 4th beast was the Roman Empire, that later claimed the prerogatives of God by becoming the Holy Roman Empire, thus blaspheming God. The other 3 did not do this. This is important to remember. Another difference is that three of the beasts of Daniel 7 (Lion, Bear, Leopard) do not have blasphemous names in their original iteration (as mentioned above) when they exercised power to rule. The only entity that can blaspheme is one that has taken the prerogatives of God upon itself, thereby ACTING in the capacity of God in ruling over it's people. The reason that the 4th Beast of Daniel 7 was removed from power and completely destroyed forever and will never be seen again (Dan. 7:26) is that it had already taken the opportunity to play the role of 'God', and will not get another opportunity to do that again. God destroyed it BECAUSE it blasphemed Him. I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. (12) As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. Dan. 7:11-12. This 1st Beast of Rev. 13 is like the beasts of Daniel 7 except for this notable omission: In Rev 13 there is NO MENTION of the 4th beast of Dan. 7 - the Great and Terrible beast that was the Holy Roman Empire that blasphemed God. It is significantly MISSING from the other empires that had been granted an extension of life but had lost their authority to rule. Why? Because the God of Heaven utterly destroyed it for blaspheme. The Bear, the Leopard and the Lion are all represented in this final beast, and they were granted an extension of life because although they acted in an evil manner they DID NOT blaspheme God at the time they were in power. All Seven (7) of the heads of the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 have blasphemous names as they ride the body of the beast made up of elements of Babylon, Persia/Media, and Greece. It is when this happens that this Beast will claim the prerogatives of God, thereby blaspheming God to His face, which is why this beast will ultimately be destroyed forever just as was the 4th Beast of Daniel 7. Quote
Musicman1228 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 This 1st Beast of Rev. 13 is different from the beasts in Daniel 7 in that those beasts in Daniel 7 at that time were civil authority, and the composite Beast of Rev. 13 is a combination of civil and religious. Note that the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 has BLASPHEMOUS heads; how many? Seven (7). Therefore, this beast cannot be the same as the 4th Beast of Dan. 7 because that beast had only ONE (1) head with Ten (10) horns; they are totally different. There is also another critical difference between these two beasts; This 4th beast was the Roman Empire, Daniel 7: 7 is describing a different beast from the one described in Rev. 13: 1. The fourth beast is the Roman Empire, for sure. But when or who then is the beast of Rev. 13: 1? More detail about this beast is given in Rev. 17. Do you agree that the horns stand for political powers? (See Rev. 17: 12) Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 that later claimed the prerogatives of God by becoming the Holy Roman Empire, thus blaspheming God. Are you referring to the horn that comes out of the fourth beast (Dan. 7: 8)? Yes. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 ...Let's get real John317, Satan IS the AntiChrist because it is HIM who first usurped God in this world and became it's ruler, and does not want to loose that rulership. Yes, SDAs have always taught that the real, original antichrist is Satan. But he always works through agents and these agents are antichrists. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Musicman1228 Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich ...Let's get real John317, Satan IS the AntiChrist because it is HIM who first usurped God in this world and became it's ruler, and does not want to loose that rulership. Yes, SDAs have always taught that the real, original antichrist is Satan. But he always works through agents and these agents are antichrists. Satan will work through 'anti-christs' until the last 5 months of the 42 months of the Great Tribulation. Then Satan will be released from the abyss and appear as an angel of light, and claim to be Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Budda, Krishna, Allah, all rolled into one. Satan has several names, one of them is AntiChrist. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Posted July 12, 2011 Satan will work through 'anti-christs' until the last 5 months of the 42 months of the Great Tribulation. .... Yes, he is working through many antichrists today. John the Beloved wrote in his second letter (v. 7) that "many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." He says the same thing in 1 John 4: 2, 3: "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Anti-christ, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." John is saying that is one of the tests of whether someone is of God or not-- whether they believe and teach that Christ came in the flesh. II John 7 actually says that Christ continues to come in human flesh. In other words, Christ is still in the flesh today. I believe it's clear that the text is saying Christ came in the same flesh that we have. Anyone might believe that Christ came in sinless, unfallen flesh, but Hebrews 2: 14 tells us that Christ shared in the same flesh and blood that the children of Adam have and is fully and truly human. He really is one of us, our elder brother. Heb. 2: 11, 12. Notice Hebrews 1: 11: "He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why He is not ashamed to call them brothers..." (ESV). We descend from the same source, Adam. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Truth Files Posted July 12, 2011 Posted July 12, 2011 Dr. Rich asks: "Not sure, but could the 2 horns LIKE the Lamb of God (Jesus) be on one horn side, a combination of Christians, Catholics and Jews; and on the other horn side, a combination of Islim, Buddism, and all Eastern religions? Could it be that is why the whole beast has the heads for all of them?" This cult religion of the first beast of Revelation is Islam .... one that claims to be a religion of "peace", but speaks like a dragon [Revelation 13] The beast himself is a fallen angelic who rules over 7 specific human kingdoms and related king positions of the Middle East presented in the scope of the prophetic visions .... past and future [Revelation 17:8-14] .... and he is the beast that will manifest in the little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince]; 11:36-45; 12:7] Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files
Members phkrause Posted July 12, 2011 Members Posted July 12, 2011 Yes, he is working through many antichrists today. John the Beloved wrote in his second letter (v. 7) that "many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist." He says the same thing in 1 John 4: 2, 3: "By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Anti-christ, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." John is saying that is one of the tests of whether someone is of God or not-- whether they believe and teach that Christ came in the flesh. II John 7 actually says that Christ continues to come in human flesh. In other words, Christ is still in the flesh today. I believe it's clear that the text is saying Christ came in the same flesh that we have. Anyone might believe that Christ came in sinless, unfallen flesh, but Hebrews 2: 14 tells us that Christ shared in the same flesh and blood that the children of Adam have and is fully and truly human. He really is one of us, our elder brother. Heb. 2: 11, 12. Notice Hebrews 1: 11: "He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why He is not ashamed to call them brothers..." (ESV). We descend from the same source, Adam. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Rich Posted July 13, 2011 Posted July 13, 2011 John317, the nature of Christ was another thread. Of course Jesus came to this earth as a human, isn't that why He was Born of a human? Flesh is flesh--period! There is NOTHING sinful about flesh! To believe otherwise is saying that God created something sinful and that is blasphemy. All people who are followers of anyone else other than Jesus Christ and His Words alone, are suspected AntiChrists. Paul and Luke went out to preach to others after meeting with the disciples, but by Paul's own testimony, he was preaching a different gospel than what John was teaching. This is why John wrote that not all who say they are of Christ are telling the truth. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 ... Of course Jesus came to this earth as a human, isn't that why He was Born of a human? Flesh is flesh--period! There is NOTHING sinful about flesh! To believe otherwise is saying that God created something sinful and that is blasphemy. I agree that flesh per se cannot sin. The body can only sin if the mind chooses to sin. So, you're right that God did not create something sinful when He created man's body. I also agree that Christ could not have been born as a human without being the son of Mary. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 All people who are followers of anyone else other than Jesus Christ and His Words alone, are suspected AntiChrists. Paul and Luke went out to preach to others after meeting with the disciples, but by Paul's own testimony, he was preaching a different gospel than what John was teaching. This is why John wrote that not all who say they are of Christ are telling the truth. You're misunderstanding what Paul said. In Gal. 1: 6-9, Paul is talking about the false "gospel" that some people were preaching. He wasn't referring to the teaching of the Apostles John or Peter and the other disciples. Paul was telling his Galatian readers that they should not listen to the perverted "gospel" which teaches that we are saved through works of the law. That's another name for "works righteousnes," or legalism. Paul agrees in this with Christ. Jesus preached the same gospel to the poor and oppressed. See Luke 4: 18; Matt. 9: 22, 29; 10: 8; 11: 28, 29. But you are quite right that not all who say they are of Christ are telling the truth. One of the tests is Is. 28: 9, "To the law and the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." The idea is that all the prophets that God inspires will agree with each other. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Posted July 13, 2011 This cult religion of the first beast of Revelation is Islam .... one that claims to be a religion of "peace", but speaks like a dragon [Revelation 13] Do you mean the second beast? Isn't it the second beast that speaks has the horns of a lamb but speaks as a dragon? This is an interesting idea. Could you explain the other identifying marks of this beast in relation to Islam? Who then is the first beast and how do you believe Islam will fulfill the prophecy of Rev. 13: 11-18? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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