Historical Hobgoblin

[ClubV12]

Truth Files says,

"Only a blind man could read the following passage of scripture and say that all of these things taken together happened in the past in 70 A.D."

Here's why I think that is trolling/spam.

Let's rephrase it:

Only a blind man, or Only an idiot?

Only one of low intelligence?

Only one of who is ignorant?

Only one who cannot read?

Egotistic! Filled with your self! Your very online name speaks volumes, that you and you alone have the truth.

Your opening line denigrates your readers and takes the position that those who don't agree with your views are easily dismissed.

I can read, I can reason, I'm not dumb and I utterly reject your view points as the ramblings of a man walking in darkness. Even a "blind man" can see that!

[Truth Files]

Do you feel better now Club?

[ClubV12]

Do you understand how your speech demeans others yet?

[Lysimachus]

Take a careful look at Israel in the Middle East today

Why has a remnant part returned to the land surrounded by their ancient enemies of the Middle East?

[Psalms 83; Jeremiah 30; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; Daniel 11:41; Daniel 12; Micah 4; 5; Joel 2: 3; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-24; Revelation 12]

The Lord is drawing the world's attention to the Middle East in many ways today ..... and there is a reason [Zechariah 14; Revelation 6:12-17; 19:11-21]

You mean the "straw-man" state of Israel? Psuedo-Israel?

The creation of the State of Israel in 1948 is in perfect alignment with Albert Pike's 3-World-War blueprint in the 1840s. He was a 33 degree Freemason.

Sadly, I see the Protestant world repeating the history of these Pharisees in their literalistic interpretations of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

The New Testament focus is New Jerusalem! The Old Jerusalem is done away with! All Middle-East prophecy is OVER.

With all due respect, I say this with sincerity. I whole heartedly believe that all the events taking place in the Middle East is the Devil's counterfeit prophecy to divert the minds of Protestants and Christians around the world from the real issues that are taking place. And I make a call for all who are focussed on the Middle East to reconsider what I am saying, and go back to the drawing board. If it were possible for me to unveil all the things that are going on behind the scenes concerning the ecumenical movements regarding Rome and her Protestant daughters, your hairs would stand on end. It even gives me goosebumps at times. For example: Most people do not realize that all the events that are taking place in the Middle East were created and started by the Jesuit Order, as a chess piece on their New World Order game-plan, to distract the Protestant world away from her true agenda! I'm dead serous.

Example: Albert Pike, a Freemason--(Freemasonry was started by the Jesuits, and so was the Illuminati)--in the year 1840 revealed a 3-World-War blueprint, and embedded in this 3-World-War blueprint for accomplishing the New World Order was to re-establish the state of Israel in Palestine after the 2nd World-War to create friction. From day one, the plan is based on Mark's and Engle's dialectic...thesis vs. antithesis = synthesis (chaos creates a need for peace)....re-establish a straw-man state of Israel, and irritate the Muslim world--have them destroy each other, and out of it comes synthesis!

The modern-State of Israel is just a pawn in the game...a critical piece being moved around the chess board by the Jesuits in command. The Jesuits know this, but they don't want the world to know it, because all the false Middle East prophecies are suiting their devilish purposes. They were responsible for creating the State of Israel. Albert Pike's blueprint in 1840 spelled out one of the purposes for World War II, and that it "was to be fomented by using the differences between Fascists and Political Zionists. This war was to be fought so that Nazism would be destroyed and the power of Political Zionism increased so that the sovereign state of Israel could be established in Palestine." (Guy Carr, Pawns in the Game, XIV, XV)

Let us raise the question: What year was the National State of Israel re-established?

Answer: 1948! Three years after World War II came to a close in 1945! Just as Albert Pike predicted! A Freemason! (goes to show that they are in control of the evils happening in this world! They have it all planned out!)

Israel's re-establishment in 1948 was not a divine act by God in the prophetic book. It was an act by the very anti-christ system itself, to 1. Create a distraction in prophetic interpretation to achieve an ultimate agenda in placing the Eye of Lucifer (check your dollar bill) on the Pyramid and establishing the New World Order, and 2. To irritate and provoke the Muslim World so that Israel and the Palestinians would destroy each-other, creating JUST the "synthesis" they have been looking for! This so called "re-establishment of the State of Israel" was not in favor of the Jews. It was to use them as a pawn to accomplish a much more evil agenda. All they accomplished was create a massive Middle-East crises, putting the Jews in jeopardy. It was an anti-semitic move by placing them in harm's way.

I know it might sound crazy, but I guarantee you....oh I guarantee you, I ain't whistling Dixie here. The information that I have in my possession comes from the HIGHEST sources in Freemasonry and from the Jesuit Order, and other secret societies. Much of this information is not even published on the Internet. You can't get sources from anything higher. They come from the highest of the highest.

So just what are the real issues? Here is just a glimpse:

1. The Papacy in Rome! (and her dogmas, and ever aggressive strides through global ecumenism, and world-power through the New World Order and Secret Societies established by the Jesuits)

2. The United States of America (the two-horned--lamb-like Beast of Revelation 13)--the smaller beast that will cause all to worship the FIRST beast before it (the Papacy).

The Middle East and a rebuilding of a third temple is NOTHING but a massive, and I mean MASSIVE distraction. The Devil wants us to focus on the Middle East so that our minds will be diverted from the real problems that we face in this world. It is the Devil's counterfeit prophecy, to take the minds away from the people real issues that are intricately connected to the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

Oh that we may wake up before it is too late!

[Lysimachus]

For those of you who are interested in learning how many of these "Old Testament" type prophecies will now be fulfilled:

The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testa...ional Antitypes

Without a proper understanding of how to interpret many of these old testament types which will no longer come to pass (since Israel rejected the Messiah), one will never come to a properly application of these Old Testament prophecies, nor will they ever learn how to discover their antitypical application for world-wide global, Spiritual Israel.

[Truth Files]

I see that anti-Semitic conspiracy ranting has now slipped into SDA theology along with a good dose of hyper-preterism

Satan is a very clever dude .... as he weaves his web of deceit in preparation for this [Revelation 12:12] .... we are definitely close to the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon world of intransigence

I see this merging of a number of pseudo-professing christian movements who used to fight each other in desperation

This that this same infestation is popping up in the most unlikely places today

Do not be deceived by the onslaught .... don't let the devil snooker you into the coming tribulation because he will if he can

He knows that the odds will be against you at his advantage

[Lysimachus]

I see that anti-Semitic conspiracy ranting has now slipped into SDA theology along with a good dose of hyper-preterism

Satan is a very clever dude .... as he weaves his web of deceit in preparation for this [Revelation 12:12] .... we are definitely close to the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment upon world of intransigence

I see this merging of a number of pseudo-professing christian movements who used to fight each other in desperation

This that this same infestation is popping up in the most unlikely places today

Do not be deceived by the onslaught .... don't let the devil snooker you into the coming tribulation because he will if he can

He knows that the odds will be against you at his advantage

The very nature of my argument precisely demonstrated the anti-semetic character of those who supposedly "support Israel". It was not in Israel's best interest to establish their state. It only jeopardized them. Putting them in harm's way as they get blown up by extremist Islamic suicide bombers, and rained down on with bombs and missiles.

And hyper-preterism has nothing to do with this. Futurism, like Preterism, are in the same camp of their failure to recognize the symbolic character of the prophetic times.

I am in no way opposed to Israel, or its people. I think we should do all to support them. But I'm just stating the fact that the original agenda in establishing the state of Israel was not done so on ethical grounds. It was done so to accomplish a much more evil agenda in the long-run.

[Truth Files]

Maybe the Lord is the one who has scheduled Israel's presence in the Middle East today .... do you think?

He says so in His prophetic Word many times that this thing would come to pass .... over and over

When I see denial on this issue, I see a reflection of one standing against His intents [by ignorance, or by design] .... not a good place to be .... something has has gone very wrong with the behavior and substance of those who would refute His objectives

But, we will see whether His hand is in the establishment of Israel's presence in the land today for sure with no doubt .... I say yes .... He has done this thing

[Guest]

And hyper-preterism has nothing to do with this. Futurism, like Preterism, are in the same camp of their failure to recognize the symbolic character of the prophetic times.

You're exactly right Lys.

[teresaq]

It seems to me that God had an original plan for Israel-and the world-stated in the bible, of which that one portion was a part of, and that Israel went their own way far too often-as do we-and so God was not able to bring it to pass.

[Truth Files]

True

[teresaq]

Then Isaiah refers to a peaceful time on the earth. Was this God's intent when the Messiah-Jesus-came?

Quote:

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

[Dr. Rich]

Then Isaiah refers to a peaceful time on the earth. Was this God's intent when the Messiah-Jesus-came?

Quote:

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

This would have happened IF plan/road A had been chosen, but they took plan B or road B, which is where we are at right now.

[Truth Files]

Teresa asked:

"Then Isaiah refers to a peaceful time on the earth. Was this God's intent when the Messiah-Jesus-came?"

>No

>Isaiah's vision reaches to the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [a kingdom of mortals] and specifically with regard to national Israel in this case .... read it carefully

>The other prophets saw the same [Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; Micah 4; 5; Joel 2; 3; Zechariah 12, 13, 14] .... and Romans 11:25-36 explains the same

>He is going to restore the kingdom to a believing remnant part of Israel [Acts 1:6] ..... other wise He would have said no .... He merely said that it was not for His early Israelite followers to know the time [the dating]

>The great trumpet that will be blown just after the days of the coming tribulation will be to gather the believing remnant of Israel into His millennial kingdom on the earth [isaiah 27;13; Matthew 24:29-31]

>The Lord is very clear about Israel's intransigence towards Him and out right rejection, and His response to punish them severely several times as a nation .... Israel's time on the earth has been more than 3500 years .... and yet still exists today .... there is a reason for it

>But He also tells of a day when He will pressure a remnant of the nation of which some will respond to Him .... and all that do He will save [Romans 11:25-36]

[teresaq]

Teresa asked:

"Then Isaiah refers to a peaceful time on the earth. Was this God's intent when the Messiah-Jesus-came?"

>No

...

>But He also tells of a day when He will pressure a remnant of the nation of which some will respond to Him .... and all that do He will save [Romans 11:25-36]

[Truth Files]

Romans 11 gives a very distinctive contrast between Israel and the gentiles and how the Lord intends to interact with each separately .... the theme of His national people runs throughout the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation in parallel with His church

The warning to the gentile is not to boast against root and branches, and to understand that their grafting in is to continue until the fullness of their numbers is added .... then the Lord is going to draw a remnant of Israel to Himself for His purposes [Romans 11:25-36] .... all of the related visions of the Bible prophets concur

Israel's blindness is still prevalent today and only a token of the nation has turned and been saved as members of His church of both Jew and gentile .... a few in the first century, and a scant number over the last 2000 years, but this condition is going to change at the end of this present age

A believing remnant part of national Israel will survive the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Zechariah 13:8-9]

The balance will be killed in belief at the time

Those who survive will enter and populate His coming millennial kingdom on the earth [isaiah 11; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31]

This is not a picture of the Lord's church of today of which those living believers at the time will be kept from His hour of trial .... the same time frame as Jacob's trouble .... the 70th week still to come [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 9, 12; Revelation 3:10]

None of this has yet taken place and is still in our future .... the Lord has delayed His return for the purpose of the adding of the gentiles to obtain salvation [2Peter 3:8-9]

Many of professing christianity have come and acknowledge the Lord's punishment of Israel for unbelief over the centuries, but then ignore His declarations included regarding His intent to preserve a part of the nation for His purposes ..... at the time of the end

Those who do this all hold replacement theologies and appropriate Israel's national position for themselves .... this is false teaching which denies His objectives related to His nation of Israel

[teresaq]

Romans 11 gives a very distinctive contrast between Israel and the gentiles and how the Lord intends to interact with each separately .... the theme of His national people runs throughout the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation in parallel with His church

[Truth Files]

"Do you have a clear cut verse where God told the Jewish people that He, God, would set them up as a nation again after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD?"

>You have already crossed them if you have read my scriptural references

.... and one must pay careful attention to this comment [Acts 1:6] .... He did not say no .... He just was not willing to reveal the dating ..... which no one can know by the way

>Here is just one again .... a big one [Jeremiah 31:31-37]

>And I will throw in another .... [Jeremiah 30:7-11] .... this was not 70 A.D. by the way for very obvious reasons spelled out in Jeremiah's vision of chapter 30 .... this is not the church of today

>There are so many of these declarations made by the Lord in scripture that to deny them is foolish .... and all must be taken together for correct rendering .... scripture picking does not work

>The difference between your SDA view and mine is this:

.... the prophetic scriptures simply do not support the idea that Israel has become the church composed mostly of gentile believers in my opinion ... and that He has no future intents with his nation of Israel

>And your refusal to understand this truth is your stumbling block in my opinion .... so we will not agree on much related to Bible prophecy

.... and is there a breach in the prophetic visions between the end of the 69th week decreed and the beginning of the 70? absolutely

>One can find this evidence in every prophetic vision related to the time of the end .... the key is to understand what has been fulfilled by the historical record .... and what is still to come the Prophets do not document events between

>There is nothing in the actual visions themselves that tell of significant events upon the earth between the ends of the the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th .... the time of the end of this present age

>Examples: none of this .... the rule of the Roman, Arabian, and ottoman Empires, the crusades, the inquisitions, world war I and 11, the holocaust

>Why not? .... because the prophetic visions are silent between the Lord's first and second advents .... and His coming visitation is still pending

> If you think the visions detail these events give me the related scriptures

>There will not be any thing secretive and unnoticed about His sudden intervention to bring judgment upon an unbelieving world and subsequent appearing just after.... all will know with out a doubt [Revelation 6:12-17 ..... Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46; Revelation 1:7]

[Lysimachus]

>Here is just one again .... a big one [Jeremiah 31:31-37]

And the context is clear that this New Covenant promise is written on the hearts of New Testament believers in Hebrews 8:8-10; 10:16,17; 2 Cor 3:3.

In 1 Cor 10:1, Paul addresses the Church by stating that those who passed through the sea were "OUR fathers".

So the fathers of Israel are also fathers of the Church.

We are spiritual descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Anything else is fleshly thinking. (See 1 Cor 10:18).

The only way you can make Jeremiah 31:31-37 only apply to literal ancient Israel is if you subscribe to the ridiculous and outrageous notion that God made 2 New Covenants. One for Israel, and one for the Church.

And if you dare say that God did not make a covenant with the Church, or for Gentiles, then you are automatically admitting that such people will be lost. Because only those who God makes a covenant with can be saved.

A New Covenant was to "take away their sins" (Romans 11:27). If there is no covenant made with Gentiles, then how on earth is their reconciliation for Gentiles?

Hebrews 10:29; 12:24 and 13:20 teach that the blood Christ shed was the "blood of the covenant", or "blood of the everlasting covenant". And Hebrews 9:22 says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sins.

So I guess Gentiles are doomed! The New Covenant wasn't made for them!

The simple solution to this Dispensational mess is to recognize that the House of Israel incorporates ALL of God's people under heaven! Jews and Gentiles. This "House" of Israel, is the SAME "House" which Peter tells the Church "Ye also are lively stones, are built upon a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5)

It's time to seriously reconsider your theology Truth Files.

[Dr. Rich]

There is no such thing as a 'new covenant'. It is the exact same words and ten commandments as the original covenant. The only thing that changed is the place where it is found. What God did with Israel/Jews is give them another chance to get rid of sin and become righteous as found in Dan. 9:24. Problem is, these people never did become righteous and get rid of sin.

Therefore Jesus said that the KOH (and therefore it's covenant) will be given to a NEW group (the rock cut out without hands as found in Dan. 2) as we can read in Matthew 21:43. NEVER did Jesus change any words in the covenant as He said in Matt.5:17-19.

Since Paul taught people that they did not have to keep the law, Jesus was talking about HIM in verse 19.

[Lysimachus]

There is no such thing as a 'new covenant'. It is the exact same words and ten commandments as the original covenant. The only thing that changed is the place where it is found. What God did with Israel/Jews is give them another chance to get rid of sin and become righteous as found in Dan. 9:24. Problem is, these people never did become righteous and get rid of sin.

Therefore Jesus said that the KOH (and therefore it's covenant) will be given to a NEW group (the rock cut out without hands as found in Dan. 2) as we can read in Matthew 21:43. NEVER did Jesus change any words in the covenant as He said in Matt.5:17-19.

Since Paul taught people that they did not have to keep the law, Jesus was talking about HIM in verse 19.

The Old Covenant was the Everlasting Covenant broken by the poor promises of Israel, which rested in their own merits and not the merits of the Lord working in and through them. The New Covenant was the Everlasting Covenant recaptured, restored, and made better by the blood of Christ, where God promises to take the SAME 10 Commandment Laws and write them in our hearts, so that we keep them and obey them out of true love.

There was no such thing as a defined "Old Covenant" in the Old Testament time frame. It was always termed "the covenant". It was not until AFTER a New Covenant was made by the blood of Christ that the Old Covenant became "old".

God had to renew the covenant Israel had broken.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

"Do you have a clear cut verse where God told the Jewish people that He, God, would set them up as a nation again after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD?"

>You have already crossed them if you have read my scriptural references

.... and one must pay careful attention to this comment [Acts 1:6] .... He did not say no .... He just was not willing to reveal the dating ..... which no one can know by the way

[Truth Files]

"You seem not to know that Jeremiah and Ezekiel were contemporaries of the period when the Jewish people were taken captive by Babylon for 70 years. Those books were written regarding that event with God's intentions for them, which were generally ignored by the people"

>I fully understand the prophets position in time .... but you ignore the details of the visions with regard to the events of a future day which have never taken place

>The Lord's says they will, but you reject His intents

>I will say this one more time: the fundamental error that you have been taught is one of the historical allegorical method of interpreting the prophetic scriptures

>As long as you continue with this methodology you will not ever understand prophetic truth [2Peter 1:16-21]

.... and there is no value in continued discussion about these things because of our divergent views

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Teresaq

"You seem not to know that Jeremiah and Ezekiel were contemporaries of the period when the Jewish people were taken captive by Babylon for 70 years. Those books were written regarding that event with God's intentions for them, which were generally ignored by the people"

>I fully understand the prophets position in time .... but you ignore the details of the visions with regard to the events of a future day which have never taken place

>The Lord's says they will, but you reject His intents

[Truth Files]

There are divergent views on all message boards all over the Internet today .... not uncommon at all