Revelation 12

[Truth Files]

This vision includes an historic overview and the specific future time of the end of this present age during the 70th week decreed for Israel [not His church of today], the Lord, and Satan

Revelation

12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven [portent]; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This is the nation of Israel from its beginnings and over time into the future [Genesis 37:9]

12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This is Israel in the first century at the Lord’s first advent

12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

This is Satan from his beginnings viewed over a vast period of time and his ruling through his beast Abaddon-Apollyon over human kings and their Middle Eastern kingdoms

12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth [at his rebellion against the Lord long long ago related to the pre-Adamite earth]: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born [this is Satan in the first century].

12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne [this is Jesus "caught up" [harpazo] in the first century].

12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16]

This is the believing remnant part of Israel residing in the land at the time of the end during the 70th week

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

This setting is at the beginning of the 70th week decreed for Israel [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12:1]

12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out [Revelation 6:13; 8:10; 9:1] with him.

No more access to heaven for Satan and his fallen ones; they will be cast out and confined to the earth during the 70th week [Revelation 6:13]

12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This is Satan’s casting to the earth at the time of the end; his position of the “god” of this world of this present age is about to be terminated just after his rant on the earth during the 70th week decreed [Revelation 20:1-3]

“Our brethren” here refers to the believing part of Israel of the past and at the time of the end [all of Israel who have followed the Lord in the past and will at the time of the end]

This voice is coming from the midst of the immortal pre-tribulation church [the Lord] who will observe the coming tribulation period of the Lord's hour of trial upon the earth from heaven

12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All of the martyrs of the believing remnant part of Israel, both of the past, and at the time of the end of this present age during the 70th week decreed

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rejoice immortal pretribulation church [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17], but woe unto the inhabiters of the earth at Satan’s casting there at the time of the end during the 70th week [Psalms 2; Matthew 24:36-39; 1Thessalonians 5:3; 2Thessalonians 2:2-12]

12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman [israel] which brought forth the man child. [Ezekiel 38; Daniel 11:41; Revelation 11:2]

Satan and his beast and followers will attack and occupy Israel at the middle of the 70th week decreed [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36:1-5; Zechariah 14:2; MAtthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:21-26; Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle [symbolic of the Lord's protection], that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time [last 1260 days of the tribulation period], from the face of the serpent. [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-15; Revelation 11:2-3]

This is the beliving remnant part of Israel in the land who will flee at the middle of the 70th week for protection from Satan' beast

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood [armies of the beast] after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Satan’s angelic and human armies will pursue them but will not be able to reach them

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. [Zechariah 14:4-5]

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the believing remnant part of Israel still residing in the nations that Satan will pursue when he is prevented from those who flee Israel [Luke 21:21]

[Tom Wetmore]

So, what is the central point of that chapter?

(Hint - It's also the central point of the entire book of Revelation.)

[Truth Files]

Tom Asked:

"So, what is the central point of that chapter?"

Satan's attempt to usurp the Lord's position for Himself by destroying Him, and His nation of Israel at the time of the end, thereby bringing his own kingdom upon the earth through his beast in the little horn and his followers .... Satan thinks that He can prevent the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... he will fail [Ezekiel 38;39; Revelation 19:11-21; 20:1-3]

Satan will be released to cause another human rebellion against the Lord and Israel at the end of the millennial kingdom .... he will fail again and will be destroyed in the Lord's lake of fire [Revelation 20:7-10]

[Dr. Rich]

So, what is the central point of that chapter?

(Hint - It's also the central point of the entire book of Revelation.)

Hint, hint, it is a glimps of the whole plan of restoration. I usually start with this chapter when I begin a study with someone because it is a outline of God's plan of restoration.

What makes it fit is that the Woman of Rev, 12 is the Holy Spirit.

[Tom Wetmore]

@ Truth Files - No. Not even close.

As Dr. Rich hinted, "it is a glimps of the whole plan of restoration... an outline of God's plan of restoration."

It is the very center of the book - Revelation 12:10-12. It captures the essence of the good news of our salvation.

[Lysimachus]

Truth Files is wearing me out with these posts. He doesn't believe in Antitypes. Everything is fleshly, everything goes back to literal. He doesn't know what a spiritual lineage in Christ represents.

It's called "RACISM" of the highest order.

[Lysimachus]

Truth Files,

Why not take your posts and present them elsewhere where you think people will accept them?

You do know that you aren't going to gain any converts here, right?

We're well studied on these matters, and will not be moved or be influenced toward the Jesuit Dispensational construct.

[Truth Files]

"Why not take your posts and present them elsewhere where you think people will accept them?"

The are many who look on and there are SDA's coming out of their entrappment all of the time .... the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be taught where ever He leads .... this is happening today and time is of the essence

Since you are so convinced about your affiliation and EGW's teaching, why don't you go elsewhere and spread your beliefs instead of sitting in a place where you are comfortable

What else can you possibly tell or add to what you have already done here .... most SDAs have it all figured out anyway

I see very little origination from you .... and much snipping at others who do not agree with you

.... and I would suspect that you rather enjoy having others around for you to argue and debate .... if not, you would not have much to say .... better think about this

You just do not like those who can square off with your position and show others a far more sure and accurated interpretation of the Lord's word of prophecy than what you seem to carry

And when you are presented with the views of others, you immediately move from your perch and begin to rail at them with a very caustic demeanor .... this behavior reflects one who is unsure of their own moorings

Those with confidence never have to discredit and hound others in order to prove their views .... but you do

.... better think about what you are doing and how your behavior appears to others who look on

Your question above is an example and I could copy and past a list of all the others you know .... should I .... or not? You decide

[Lysimachus]

"Why not take your posts and present them elsewhere where you think people will accept them?"

The are many who look on and there are SDA's coming out of their entrappment all of the time .... the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be taught where ever He leads .... this is happening today and time is of the essence

Since you are so convinced about your affiliation and EGW's teaching, why don't you go elsewhere and spread your beliefs instead of sitting in a place where you are comfortable

What else can you possibly tell or add to what you have already done here .... most SDAs have it all figured out anyway

I see very little origination from you .... and much snipping at others who do not agree with you

.... and I would suspect that you rather enjoy having others around for you to argue and debate .... if not, you would not have much to say .... better think about this

You just do not like those who can square off with your position and show others a far more sure and accurated interpretation of the Lord's word of prophecy than what you seem to carry

And when you are presented with the views of others, you immediately move from your perch and begin to rail at them with a very caustic demeanor .... this behavior reflects one who is unsure of their own moorings

Those with confidence never have to discredit and hound others in order to prove their views .... but you do

.... better think about what you are doing and how your behavior appears to others who look on

Your question above is an example and I could copy and past a list of all the others you know .... should I .... or not? You decide

You are assuming I'm not elsewhere sharing my views. I'm in a lot of non-denominational forums.

But my purpose here is to vindicate our faith, give a lending hand in offering some essential tools to defend our faith and not fall for the lies that you are bringing in here.

I began posting in this forum as soon as I saw your posts. And I will do all in my power to expose your Dispensational Delusions that are nothing more than the very cradle to hone in the New World Order. Your entire theology is nothing more than Jesuit-Psuedepigraphal-Mythology.

[Truth Files]

"You are assuming I'm not elsewhere sharing my views. I'm in a lot of non-denominational forums"

This is the last response that I will give to you:

What you say is that you have the liberty to post on other forums, but I don't .... this tells the story and again confirms your behavior

[Lysimachus]

"Why not take your posts and present them elsewhere where you think people will accept them?"

The are many who look on and there are SDA's coming out of their entrappment all of the time .... the gospel of Jesus Christ is to be taught where ever He leads .... this is happening today and time is of the essence

[Musicman1228]

Lysimachus,

Your analysis of Ch. 12 is wonderfully done, as long as you except the premise that the Woman is literal Israel, both ancient and modern.

I do not subscribe to this premise. Here are my reasons:

The Woman is see IN HEAVEN. The nation of Israel was never in Heaven, and neither (by the way) was the 'Church', as many believe this Woman to be. That alone is enough to convince me that the Woman cannot be either Israel or the 'church' (whatever that is).

This Woman is wearing a crown containing 12 stars; from a literal standpoint 12 is the number of gates into the city of the New Jerusalem, it is the original number of the disciples of Jesus Christ, and most significantly it is the number of the original Tribes of Israel. 12 is the 'KINGDOM' number. The 'Crown' indicates royalty, which means that this Woman is a Royal member of the family of God, therefore She IS God. Since we know there are three parts to the Godhead, and that the Father is one, and the Son is another, then the only part left to be represented is the Holy Spirit. Therefore this Woman IS the Holy Spirit, and the Queen of the Kingdom of Heaven.

She gives birth to the ruler of the Kingdom of Heaven. Giving birth is the natural role of a woman; and since this Woman gives birth to Jesus, and since we are to be given 'new' birth by the Holy Spirit, we are therefore given birth by the same Woman that gave birth to Jesus. And that is exactly what it says in Rev. 12:17.

This being true then the entire premise for your understanding of Chapter 12 is faulty from the get-go.

Mind you, I do believe israel plays a pivotal role in end time events; it is after all the 'wounded head' of the 1st Beast of Rev. 13 (not Rome) which identifies this Beast as the kingdom of the world and of Satan. I also believe that the idea that Rome and a new Roman Empire under the Papacy is a ruse of Satan to get us to look in the wrong direction toward Rome, when we should be focusing our attention on Jerusalem and Judaism. This does not mean that this Woman can be identified as something other than what She really is, and that is the Holy Spirit, who is the Mother of all of those that are and will be in the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Lysimachus]

Musicman

Quote:

I also believe that the idea that Rome and a new Roman Empire under the Papacy is a ruse of Satan to get us to look in the wrong direction toward Rome, when we should be focusing our attention on Jerusalem and Judaism.

Oh brother if you knew just how strong my conviction is that you are so deceived. SOO deceived on this matter.

It is the other way around!

90% of the Christian world has their attention focused on the Middle East.

Tim LaHaye

Jack Van Impe

Hal Lindsay

Thomas Ice

Perry Stone

John MacCarthur

and the list goes on....from TBN, etc.

All of them are saying this deadly poison. And it is a deadly poison that you have swallowed.

I will pray that you will come out of this myopia teaching, for its way leads to destruction, not heavenward.

"And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east." (Ezekel 8:16)

The entire Christian world is focused on the "Middle East".

Sunday Worship

Middle East

I believe Satan's masterpiece delusion of having the Christian world focus their attention toward the Middle East is Satan's "COUNTERFEIT" theology, to distract the attention of the world from Rome and the United States, where the REAL center of Bible Prophecy is taking place.

Wake up my friend before it's too late. You are on dangerous ground.

Blessings,

Lysimachus

[John317]

....The Woman is see IN HEAVEN. The nation of Israel was never in Heaven, and neither (by the way) was the 'Church', as many believe this Woman to be. That alone is enough to convince me that the Woman cannot be either Israel or the 'church' (whatever that is).

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

[Guest]

Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

Excellent point John!

[Lysimachus]

Also, Hebrews 12:22,23 tells us that our citizenship is in heaven, in the New Jerusalem.

The New Jerusalem represents the Church, and it's in heaven!

Though we may not be there physically, it's citizenship is in heaven!

The New Jerusalem is the physical inheritance of the Church. It is the "adornment" of the Church. The HOME of the Church. And it's in heaven!

Oh if Musicman could only see these simple truths!

So although we might be physically on earth, our citizenship belongs in the New Jerusalem, which is in heaven.

[Aliensanctuary]

TF---Don't give up. I, at least, appreciate your point of view, as it lies closer to mine than that of the denomination.

We can allow ourselves to be brainwashed by religious organizations, and elevate those who make bold claims to prophet status, but the end result of that will only be disappointment and loss of faith when we see that our "prophets" were all con artists who sold truckloads of tainted baloney on the side. Not that they were all evil, they just didn't understand what the Kingdom of God is.

Daughter of Zion, Bride coming down from the sky...these cities tend to be referred to in the female gender. My take on Rev 12 is that the pure woman is a city from space, but perhaps she can represent the nation of Israel within, too. The New Jerusalem is a huge city, either from space, or, another dimension.

I'm not sure I follow how the woman of Rev 12 could be the HS. Why would the HS need to hide anywhere, it being an invisible force, like gravity? The 12 Stars could just be the city's and/or kingdom's logo.

PS.

These forums are a good place to share our ideas and have our own ideas challenged. We can learn from others if we have to explain, and try to prove, what we believe in. If we start bullying those we disagree with, or threaten them with censorship for expressing their point of view, our sunglasses just keep getting darker and darker...

[Lysimachus]

TF---Don't give up. I, at least, appreciate your point of view, as it lies closer to mine than that of the denomination.

We can allow ourselves to be brainwashed by religious organizations, and elevate those who make bold claims to prophet status, but the end result of that will only be disappointment and loss of faith when we see that our "prophets" were all con artists who sold truckloads of tainted baloney on the side. Not that they were all evil, they just didn't understand what the Kingdom of God is.

Daughter of Zion, Bride coming down from the sky...these cities tend to be referred to in the female gender. My take on Rev 12 is that the pure woman is a city from space, but perhaps she can represent the nation of Israel within, too. The New Jerusalem is a huge city, either from space, or, another dimension.

I'm not sure I follow how the woman of Rev 12 could be the HS. Why would the HS need to hide anywhere, it being an invisible force, like gravity? The 12 Stars could just be the city's and/or kingdom's logo.

PS.

These forums are a good place to share our ideas and have our own ideas challenged. We can learn from others if we have to explain, and try to prove, what we believe in. If we start bullying those we disagree with, or threaten them with censorship for expressing their point of view, our sunglasses just keep getting darker and darker...

Keep in mind that the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem have the names of the 12 apostles (Revelation 21:14). And according to Ephesians 2:19,20, the "foundation of the Church" is the "apostles".

The Church is also described as the "bride" of Christ. (Ephesians 5:23-27)

The New Jerusalem also described as the "bride" "adorned" for her husband (Christ).(Revelation 21:2)

So while the members of the Church are on earth, their citizenship is in heaven.

There is so much beautiful and deep spiritual symbolism.

[Aliensanctuary]

Rev 21:2

Quote:

I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven [sky] from God, prepared as a bride dressed for her husband.

The approaching city was likely brightly lit, crystalline, and colorful, maybe looking something like a huge Christmas display. The Lamb will rule the city and its inhabitants, forever, just as we humans are supposed to remain married to our spouses on Earth, meeting their needs, caring for them tenderly, as long as we live and are well enough to do so.

Some may spiritualize the metaphor away by turning the city of New Jerusalem into the "church" located somewhere in "heaven", which can mean, simply, "up". Funny thing, Jesus never once mentioned the word, "church." After Jesus was gone, the disciple's get-togethers were at first informal, then, as time passed, the meetings became organized and structured, then corrupted, and finally, the "church" became an oppressive political power.

That's what churches do: they control people by telling them what to think, taking the member's money to maintain their power.

[Lysimachus]

Funny thing, Jesus never once mentioned the word, "church."

Jesus said:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16;18)

"And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican." (Matthew 18:17)

The Church began with Christ:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:" (1 Peter 2:5-9)

Jesus is the rock. On this rock is built the Temple, His church.

The Chief Corner Stone holds and supports the 12 foundations, and on top of the 12 foundations is the Temple. The ENTIRE Temple, which God calls the "Church", starts with the Chief Corner Stone!

The Greek word for Church is simply "ekklesia". Which simply means "congregation".

The word "Church" existed in the Old Testament with its Hebrew equivalent.

Here is a full study on it:

The Word "Church" in the Old Testament

[Aliensanctuary]

Sorry, the version that I scanned for "church" did not have that word, unlike many other versions.

Matt 16:18

So I now say to you: You are Peter and on this rock I will build my community. And the gates of the underworld can never overpower it.

[John317]

We can allow ourselves to be brainwashed by religious organizations, and elevate those who make bold claims to prophet status, but the end result of that will only be disappointment and loss of faith when we see that our "prophets" were all con artists who sold truckloads of tainted baloney on the side. Not that they were all evil, they just didn't understand what the Kingdom of God is.

Do you have anyone in particular in mind?

[John317]

Sorry, the version that I scanned for "church" did not have that word, unlike many other versions.

Yeah, but if you knew your Bible, you would know that Christ spoke of the church. This can only mean you don't know what you're talking about, at least as far as concerns Jesus' teaching.

[John317]

I'm not sure I follow how the woman of Rev 12 could be the HS. Why would the HS need to hide anywhere,...

Good point. I believe you're right. It makes no sense and doesn't follow from the Bible's evidence.

[miz3]

Keep in mind that the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem have the names of the 12 apostles (Revelation 21:14). And according to Ephesians 2:19,20, the "foundation of the Church" is the "apostles".

That is RCC theology!

The Foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ!

My, My!