Revelation 12

[Aliensanctuary]

I like the word "community" better, anyway, rather than "church". It's in several different translations of the Bible. The Kingdom of God will be more like a big commune, where everyone will willingly share whatever they have with others, because their sense of self no longer exists.

This sense of "community" will also exist among the 144K, as it did with Jesus and the early community of his followers. We can easily see that he had no sense of self that we so often suffer with. Without a sense of self, we would be incapable of harming others, physically or verbally. It would not cross our minds to embarrass or belittle those in our community of believers, but rather, we would support and defend them as friends.

[phkrause]

I like the word "community" better, anyway, rather than "church". It's in several different translations of the Bible. The Kingdom of God will be more like a big commune, where everyone will willingly share whatever they have with others, because their sense of self no longer exists.

This sense of "community" will also exist among the 144K, as it did with Jesus and the early community of his followers. We can easily see that he had no sense of self that we so often suffer with. Without a sense of self, we would be incapable of harming others, physically or verbally. It would not cross our minds to embarrass or belittle those in our community of believers, but rather, we would support and defend them as friends.

I agree that the word "community" might be a better one than "church." But that doesn't negate that what he's talking about is his Church.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

....The Woman is see IN HEAVEN. The nation of Israel was never in Heaven, and neither (by the way) was the 'Church', as many believe this Woman to be. That alone is enough to convince me that the Woman cannot be either Israel or the 'church' (whatever that is).

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

Let's see now, to your way of thinking, the woman gave birth to Jesus and now Jesus is going to be the groom for the same woman? Right? If you believe this then do you also believe in haveing a sexual relationship with your mother? Get the picture? Therefore it is impossible for this Woman to be either Israel or the Church, or Mary.

The Jews are the ONLY religious eneity that lost it's way of worship because of war. If you can show me another one, then that would be something I have not been able to find.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

Keep in mind that the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem have the names of the 12 apostles (Revelation 21:14). And according to Ephesians 2:19,20, the "foundation of the Church" is the "apostles".

That is RCC theology!

The Foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ!

My, My!

You are both wrong. The true foundation for the Church is Paul's Gospel. Therefore the Church was built on sandy ground. As even EGW said, "The Church was Evil from the very beginning!"

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

....The Woman is see IN HEAVEN. The nation of Israel was never in Heaven, and neither (by the way) was the 'Church', as many believe this Woman to be. That alone is enough to convince me that the Woman cannot be either Israel or the 'church' (whatever that is).

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Rev. 12:1.

Heaven - 03772

3772 ouranos oo-ran-os' perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God)

John,

Methinks thou protesteth too much.

[Dr. Rich]

John317 wrote: "If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells."

MM wrote: "And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Rev. 12:1.

Heaven - 03772

3772 ouranos oo-ran-os' perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God)

John,

Methinks thou protesteth too much."

MM, me thinks the sky is falling! ooops that was just a 'nut'.

Here is the thing: Heaven IS a place. It IS a location. The Church was NEVER in the sky or heaven! Neither was Mary! Why people can't see this is because ONLY those who have insight will see, all others can't hear or see. Didn't God say that none of the wicked will ever understand?

So MM, first one must repent and stop being one of the wicked. ONLY after that happens will they be able to see and hear (understand) the words of Jesus Christ.

Of course the problem with this view is that Paul said no one can ever stop sinning. Therefore IF you follow after that teaching, you will also never be able to understand end time prophecy! Very simple!

[John317]

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Rev. 12:1.

Originally Posted By: Musicman1228

Heaven - 03772

3772 ouranos oo-ran-os' perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God)

3772 ouranos oo-ran-os' perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky;

As I said, there are three "heavens" in the Bible. Not all are the abode of God.

Gen. 1: 8 says that God called the firmament heaven. Notice the firmament is not God's abode.

In Rev. 12: 1, the prophet is not saying that the sign appeared in God's abode. He's clearly talking about what he is seeing in vision, which is a scene portrayed in the sky where the sun and the moon are.

Notice John also sees the great fiery red dragon in heaven, i.e., in the sky.

There are many times in the Bible when the word "heaven" means the sky and not the abode of God.

[John317]

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If you believe this then do you also believe in haveing a sexual relationship with your mother? Get the picture? Therefore it is impossible for this Woman to be either Israel or the Church, or Mary.

Hey, that's some sick and crazy thinking.

It has nothing to do with having sex with anyone. We're talking about symbolism and metaphor. Jesus is not going to have sex with His wife, the church. Remember that the church is also called "the body of Christ."

Christ was born from woman, and this woman, Mary, was of the people of God. The people of God were the church of God. The church of God consists of both the people of Israel before 34 AD and the Christian church after 34 AD.

The woman in John's vision was not a symbol of Mary but of God's people through whom the Messiah was to be born. He was a descendent of David, of Abraham, and of Adam. If we say he wasn't, then we are saying God lied to David, because God promised David that a descendent of his would sit on the Davidic throne forever. God said this descendent would be of the fruit of David's body. And then in Rev. 22, Jesus tells us Himself that He is indeed the Root and Offspring of David.

[Musicman1228]

Originally Posted By: John317

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If you believe this then do you also believe in haveing a sexual relationship with your mother? Get the picture? Therefore it is impossible for this Woman to be either Israel or the Church, or Mary.

Hey, that's some sick and crazy thinking.

It has nothing to do with having sex with anyone. We're talking about symbolism and metaphor. Jesus is not going to have sex with His wife, the church. Remember that the church is also called "the body of Christ."

Christ was born from woman, and this woman, Mary, was of the people of God. The people of God were the church of God. The church of God consists of both the people of Israel before 34 AD and the Christian church after 34 AD.

The woman in John's vision was not a symbol of Mary but of God's people through whom the Messiah was to be born. He was a descendent of David, of Abraham, and of Adam. If we say he wasn't, then we are saying God lied to David, because God promised David that a descendent of his would sit on the Davidic throne forever. God said this descendent would be of the fruit of David's body. And then in Rev. 22, Jesus tells us Himself that He is indeed the Root and Offspring of David.

John,

Your logic in interpreting the metaphor breaks down at the following location: you said that the people of God are the 'church' of God, and this is factually not true. Israel was NOT a church and never has been, because at the time of ancient Israel there were no churches. Israel was a NATION that was then (at that time) the Kingdom of Heaven.

As has been previously pointed out the 'church' did not give birth to Jesus Christ. A Woman who appeared IN HEAVEN (not in the literal sky over the earth, remember this is in a vision) gave birth to Jesus. And it is this same Woman that gives birth to 'the rest of Her offspring'. Therefore this Woman is a mother.

Please note that unless you subscribe to the idea that the 'offspring' of this Woman are illegitimate then this Woman would also have to be a wife, legally married to the Father of her children. This would necessarily be the same Father that produced the 'seed' that became the Son of God as seen in Luke 1:35. We have been told by 'experts' in prophecy that the 'bride of Christ' is the church. So if this Woman is the church then she would not only have to be the legitimate wife of God Almighty but also of Her own Son. This is where the metaphor as you subscribe to it breaks down, assuming the metaphor is consistent.

Remember that this is a metaphor that Jesus is using as a teaching tool so we will understand the relationships in the Heavenly family and does not reflect actual facts as they stand; then God the Father would be married to God the Mother-the Holy Spirit. She would give birth to their 'only begotten Son' who is Jesus Christ; and it is Jesus Christ that will shortly come back to retrieve His bride which is the Church and take her to Heaven to marry her. This is the ONLY interpretation that is consistent throughout the entire metaphor.

You, of course, can choose to continue to believe that the Woman is the church, but then that automatically eliminates consistency within the metaphor, and means you can choose to make any symbol in prophecy mean anything you want it to mean - willy-nilly as you see fit. Doing this however will complicate the interpretation out of all proportion to the truth.

[Dr. Rich]

Originally Posted By: John317

If you read carefully, you will see that the apostle John is describing what he saw in vision, which is a pregnant woman in the sky, not in heaven where God dwells. It says "a great sign appeared" in the sky. There are three heavens in the Bible and the context tells us which heaven a text is describing. So the text is not telling us that the woman is in heaven where God dwells. Notice what is under her feet and what she is clothed with: she is clothed with the Sun and the moon is under her feet. The sun and the moon were never in heaven where God dwells.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

If you believe this then do you also believe in haveing a sexual relationship with your mother? Get the picture? Therefore it is impossible for this Woman to be either Israel or the Church, or Mary.

Hey, that's some sick and crazy thinking.

It has nothing to do with having sex with anyone. We're talking about symbolism and metaphor. Jesus is not going to have sex with His wife, the church. Remember that the church is also called "the body of Christ."

Christ was born from woman, and this woman, Mary, was of the people of God. The people of God were the church of God. The church of God consists of both the people of Israel before 34 AD and the Christian church after 34 AD.

The woman in John's vision was not a symbol of Mary but of God's people through whom the Messiah was to be born. He was a descendent of David, of Abraham, and of Adam. If we say he wasn't, then we are saying God lied to David, because God promised David that a descendent of his would sit on the Davidic throne forever. God said this descendent would be of the fruit of David's body. And then in Rev. 22, Jesus tells us Himself that He is indeed the Root and Offspring of David.

Yes John317, that is what we have been trying to show you, but your stubborn heart will not allow you to even think you are ever wrong.

God said that Israel committed adultry by worshiping other gods other than the true God. This is physically not SEX and you should know this. But the act of worshipping other gods is still spiritual adultry, and this is what you would have Jesus doing with the church if you had it your way.

It does not make much difference if it were the sky or heaven, because neither Mary or the church were ever in the sky! And again, Jesus is NOT about to 'marry' the woman of Rev. 12, because this woman was His own mother.

[John317]

Yes John317, that is what we have been trying to show you, but your stubborn heart will not allow you to even think you are ever wrong.

Do you actually think you could convince me to think as you do-- to reject Ellen White as God's prophet and to reject 2/3 of the NT? Not a chance-- especially since you don't have any evidence of it except for your imagination and terrible principles of Bible interpretation, such as that Acts 2: 3 shows that the Devil inspired Peter on the day of Pentecost.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

God said that Israel committed adultry by worshiping other gods other than the true God. This is physically not SEX and you should know this. But the act of worshipping other gods is still spiritual adultry, and this is what you would have Jesus doing with the church if you had it your way.

Explain from the Bible how Jesus would be worshipping other gods if the woman is the church (Israel), which produced the Messiah?

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

It does not make much difference if it were the sky or heaven, because neither Mary or the church were ever in the sky! And again, Jesus is NOT about to 'marry' the woman of Rev. 12, because this woman was His own mother.

Of course neither Mary nor the church were ever in the sky!! We're talking about a symbol which John saw in the sky, not that they were actually in the sky.

You're mixing metaphors-- the woman in the sky and the woman Jesus marries. The women Jesus marries is the New Jerusalem. The woman in the sky that gave birth to Jesus the man was the people of Israel, God's covenant people. The church is part of that covenant people. God sees us as all one, which is the way God presented it to Abraham. We're all God's people if we are truly in Christ by faith.

[Dr. Rich]

LOL again John317! This time it's hard to stop laughing! You finally admitted that 'nothing' will ever get you to change you way of thinking. If that isn't the picture of how Jesus finds those in the KOH (Adventists) as found in Laodicea (Rev. 3:14-220) then I don't know what else it is!

[John317]

I don't think you understand. I didn't say I don't look at evidence and can't be persuaded by reason and evidence, but that is not what you try to feed people. You try to feed them the doctrines of devils, teaching that the writers of the Bible are of Satan. It is getting to the place where it can't continue much longer here.

You and MM have not been cooperating and keep doing what you promised me a long time ago that you would not do. I'm getting sick of hearing that garbage, guys. Your days are numbered here. Look for somewhere else to go.

[ClubV12]

...it won't be to soon for me John...

The last few posts on this thread are downright repulsive.

[John317]

Yes, I apologize to the loyal Adventists who come here.

[Musicman1228]

John,

Please read the PM I sent you and respond as soon as you can.

[Lysimachus]

Yes, I apologize to the loyal Adventists who come here.

I hear you John. But I also feel bad for what you're going through too. Adventism is being assailed more in this modern day and age than it ever has before. It is actually a sign that it is build on the foundations of truth. Because foundations of truth are always assailed by the Devil.

The negativity toward Adventism is getting thicker, darker, and colder as time progresses. The skepticism, unbelief, and theological pride seems to take such deep root, that no matter how much evidence you present, they will stubbornly continue to parade their beliefs, in light of all the Biblical evidence, right to the pit of hell. They outright reject the Spirit of Prophecy, nor care if God gave us a prophet with over 2000 visions to help steer the Church in the right direction--especially with so many winds of doctrines flying to and fro in every direction, all claiming to have the truth concerning the Scriptures.

It only makes perfect sense why God would send us a prophet to help steer us into the right path. But even after sending a prophet in these modern times of UTTER confusion on doctrine, they STILL have the gall to reject her. Have they forgotten that in the days of Jeremiah and Isaiah (not to mention scores of other prophets), they were not popular in their day? That everyone thought they were false prophets?

Has it ever crossed their minds that the so called "negativities" they are exercised against her is of the SAME spirit that the skeptics exercised against the Old Testament prophets?

"Oh, of COUUURRSSE NOT! Had we lived in the days of these prophets, we wouldn't have rejected them! We're not sure what was wrong with those people for rejecting the prophets! It was so obvious they were true!"

....so the skeptics of Ellen White today say.

I say....

SUUUURRREEEE.....

SSSSUUUUURRRRRREEEEEEE YA WOULD!!!

You know how much I believe that they would have accepted the Old Testament prophets had they been raised in their day?

I believe it like a HOLE IN THE HEAD! :)