The Truth About Dispensational Futurism!

[Truth Files]

"So your above post supports our argument against you, it does not support your views, Thank you for agreeing with us and disagreeing with your previous post. However I thought you were going to try to prove your point"

>I don't think so, looks like all of the same stuff to me .... just different faction's and spin offs .... and different pied Pipers with individual ambitions .... bickering among themselves

>I see all of this as cultish branded religions following various false prophets and false teachers .... and I see the damage done not only to the memberships, but the same making a mockery of Biblical christianity

[Aussiemike]

Both movements carry very similar dogmas today like sabbath keeping and similar legalisms,

Similar legalisms like not committing murder and stealing and adultery etc. those legalisms. ie the ten commandments

[Gerr]

"I'm sorry but Armstrong was not an offshoot of Ellen White's Seventh-day Adventism. They were an offshoot from a different branch of millerism."

>No difference .... Millerism; Whiteism ..... all the same

>And before you play your "sloppy card", better check out the facts about Armstrong ..... I know the record about this spin off

>You tell me about your idea with facts

Iceberg, Rosenberg, Goldberg, all the same?

Calling yourself "Truth Files" and then play fast and loose with facts/Truth?

[John317]

When the great disapointment came many of the Millerites left the SDA and later formed the Church of God [7th day] .... then later, Armstrong's WWCG was hatched

This is false. There was no SDA Church until 1863. The Great Disappointment was in 1844.

Prove the link between Armstrong and Ellen White and the SDAs. You need to show references and a quote from a competant source.

[John317]

Calling yourself "Truth Files" and then play fast and loose with facts/Truth?

Unfortunately "Truth Files" does it quite often and evidently thinks nothing of it.

READER BEWARE!

[Truth Files]

"Thank you for agreeing with us and disagreeing with your previous post. However I thought you were going to try to prove your point"

"Unfortunately "Truth Files" does it quite often and evidently thinks nothing of it. READER BEWARE!"

"All this without any evidence whatsoever. So much for truth"

>The evidence is in .... no question about this

>The linkage is evident by shared foundational beliefs .... and all are replacement theologies [discounting Israel's position in scripture and replacing with their own movements]; all selective legalistic law keepers [notably, Sabbath "keepers"] .... all connected spin off movements

>Millerite, SDA, Armstrong, Russell, branch Dividian, etc.

>Armstrong's method of replacement theology was just a different twist to fabricate the British and the USA into the 10 lost tribes of Israel [white anglo-saxon supremacy]

>Charles Russell, leader of the JW Watch Tower Society was well knowm for his failures by making false prophecies and then reinventing his stories when they did not come to pass

>Here is a short article and this record can be verified as factual:

Adventism began as an inter-denominational movement. Its most vocal leader was William Miller. Between 50,000 and 100,000 people in the United States supported Miller's predictions of Christ's return.

After the "Great Disappointment" of October 22, 1844 many people in the movement gave up on Adventism and presumably on Christianity as well. Of those remaining Adventist, the majority gave up believing in any prophetic (biblical) significance for the October 22 date, yet they remained expectant of the near Advent (second coming of Jesus).

Of those who retained the October 22 date, many maintained that Jesus had come not literally but "spiritually", and consequently were known as "spiritualizers" [EGW]. A small minority held that something concrete had indeed happened on October 22, but this event had been misinterpreted. This viewpoint later emerged and crystallized with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the largest remaining body today.

The Albany Conference in 1845, attended by 61 delegates, was called to attempt to determine the future course and meaning of the Millerite movement. Following this meeting, the "Millerites" then became known as "Adventists" or "Second Adventists".

However, the delegates disagreed on several theological points. Four groups emerged from the conference: The Evangelical Adventists, The Life and Advent Union, the Advent Christian Church, and the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

The largest group organized as the American Millennial Association, a portion of which was later known as the Evangelical Adventist Church. Unique among the Adventists, they believed in an eternal hell and consciousness in death. They declined in numbers, and by 1916 their name did not appear in the United States Census of Religious Bodies. It has diminished to almost non-existence today.

Their main publication was the Advent Herald. (Millerite magazine Signs of the Times) was first published in 1840. In January 1844 it was continued and renamed the Advent Herald and Signs of the Times or Advent Herald, of which Sylvester Bliss was the editor until his death in 1863. It was later called the Messiah’s Herald). Another was the Signs of the Times

The Life and Advent Union was founded by George Storrs in 1863. He had established The Bible Examiner in 1842. It merged with the Adventist Christian Church in 1964.

The Advent Christian Church officially formed in 1861, and grew rapidly at first. It declined a little over the 20th century. The Advent Christians publish the four magazines The Advent Christian Witness, Advent Christian News, Advent Christian Missions andMaranatha.

They also operate a liberal arts college at Aurora, Illinois; and a Bible College at Lennox, Massachusetts. The Primitive Advent Christian Church later separated from a few congregations in West Virginia.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church officially formed in 1863. It believes in the sanctity of the seventh-day Sabbath as a holy day for worship. It published the Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald. It has grown to a large worldwide denomination and has a significant network of medical and educational institutions.

Miller did not join any of the movements, and spent the last few years of his life working for unity, before dying in 1849.

The Handbook of Denominations in the United States, 12th edn., describes the following churches as "Adventist and Sabbatarian (Hebraic) Churches":

Christadelphians - The Christadelphians, were founded 1844 and had an estimated 25,000 members in 170 ecclesias in 2000 in America.

Advent Christian Church - The Advent Christian Church was founded 1860 and had 25,277 members in 302 churches in 2002 in America. It is a "first-day" body of Adventist Christians founded on the teachings of William Miller. They adopted the "conditional immortality" views of Charles F. Hudson and George Storrs formed the "Advent Christian Association" in Salem, Massachusetts in 1860.

Primitive Advent Christian Church - The Primitive Advent Christian Church is a small group which separated from the Advent Christian Church. They differ from the parent body mainly in two points. They observe feet washing as a rite of the church, and they teach that reclaimed backsliders should be baptized (even though they had formerly been baptized). This is sometimes referred to as rebaptism.

Seventh-day Adventist - The Seventh-day Adventist Church, founded 1863, and had 15,600,000 baptized members (not counting children of members) worldwide as of 2007[3] is best known for its teaching that Saturday, the seventh day of the week, is the Sabbath and is the appropriate day for worship.

Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement - The Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement is a small offshoot with an unknown number of members from the Seventh-day Adventist Church caused by disagreement over military service on the Sabbath day during World War I.

Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association - The Davidians (originally named Shepherd's Rod) is a small offshoot with an unknown number of members made up primarily of voluntarily disfellowshipped members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

They were originally known as the Shepherd's Rod and are still referred to as such. The group derives its name from two books on Bible doctrine written by their founder, Victor Houteff, in 1929.

Branch Davidians - The Branch Davidians were a split ("branch") from the Davidians. Many of them perished in the infamous Waco Siege of 1993.

Church of God (Seventh Day) - The Church of God (Seventh-Day) founded 1863 with an estimated 11,000 members in 185 churches in 1999 in America. They separated in 1858 from those Adventists associated with Ellen White who later organized as Seventh-day Adventists in 1863.

Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God splintered from this. The Church of God (7th Day) split off in 1933 and had an estimated 63,000 members worldwide in 2004.

Church of God and Saints of Christ - The Church of God and Saints of Christ was founded 1896 and had an estimated 40,000 members in approximately 200 congregations in 1999 in America.

Church of God General Conference - The Church of God General Conference was founded in 1921 and had 7,634 members in 162 churches in 2004 in America. It is an Adventist Christian body which is also known as the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith and the Church of God General Conference (Morrow, GA).

United Seventh-Day Brethren - The United Seventh-Day Brethren is a small Sabbatarian Adventist body. In 1947, several individuals and two independent congregations within the Church of God Adventist movement formed the United Seventh-Day Brethren, seeking to increase fellowship and to combine their efforts in evangelism, publications, and other ministries.

United Church of God - Following massive doctrinal changes in the Worldwide Church of God, numerous groups split off to retain a more traditional system. The United Church of God founded in 1995 is the largest such offshoot.

True and Free Adventists, a Russian group with at least two denominations and numerous individual churches with a charismatic or Pentecostal-type bent have been influenced by or were offshoots from Seventh-day Adventists

Jehovah's Witnesses are generally not regarded as part of the Millerite Adventist movement, although at least one source does. The founder Charles Taze Russell attended an Adventist church 1870–4 and "was deeply influenced by Adventist thought". Jehovah's Witnesses, previously known as International Bible Students before 1931, founded circa 1870, as of December 2008 there were 7 million Witnesses in 235 different lands attending 105,000 congregations.

Here is a quick read and interesting documentation related to the commonality of the SDA and the JW movements:

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/SDA%20Church.html

[Lysimachus]

No replacement theology here. Israel has not been replaced. It's vinedressers--the husbandmen (Jewish Nation) has. According to Isaiah 5 and 65, it would be the "strangers" that would come in, plow the fields, and "stand to feed the flock".

The Church are the new "Husbandmen" for the "House of Israel". The "kingdom" (Israel) was "given" (not replaced) to a new nation.

The "keys" to the "house" (Israel) have been given to new housekeepers, new caretakers. The Lord has removed the Jewish Nation's privilege of taking care of those keys. God's true Church now possesses the right to the keys of the house. They have been given the Divine Credentials to the Vineyard, the "house of Israel".

The Israel of God and the False Charge of "Replacement Theology"

Sometimes, people just need a little "repetition".

[Truth Files]

SDA, Mormon, JW, WWCG

Each of these particular examples of movements created their own replacement theologies with a different twist

Major difference: EGW was set up and used as an iconic prophet by her associates ..... the others were created and led by the originators of the movements

.... this foundational concept of replacement theology [relegating national Israel to the past with no further and separate role in future unfilled prophecy, and claiming the position for the movement] has been used by those who create religions of propriety and self serving ambition

The list is long and it was instituted by the early originators of the RCC using the historical/allegorical method of interpreting the prophetic scriptures .... this methodology allows for the manipulation of the same in order to then construct extra-biblical doctrines of men

There are many of these sub movements of professing christianity today who do the very same thing for the same objectives and yet they all stand against one another and claim exclusivity

[John317]

(quoting): ...Jehovah's Witnesses are generally not regarded as part of the Millerite Adventist movement, although at least one source does. The founder Charles Taze Russell attended an Adventist church 1870–4 and "was deeply influenced by Adventist thought". Jehovah's Witnesses, previously known as International Bible Students before 1931, founded circa 1870, as of December 2008 there were 7 million Witnesses in 235 different lands attending 105,000 congregations.

This Adventist church Russell attended was not Seventh-day Adventist.

Russell was influenced by George Storrs' writings on the non-immortality of the soul. Storrs' writings also influenced many of the people who later formed the Seventh-day Adventist Church. James White read Storrs' writings, but White already believed in the non-immortality of the soul before reading Storrs.

So there's no direct connection between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists.

[John317]

..EGW was set up and used as an iconic prophet by her associates

This is not true. Ellen White was not set up by other people. This isn't how Ellen G. White's prophetic ministry began.

Have you read her books, Early Writings or Life Sketches?

How her ministry began is well documented in Arthur White's multivolumn biography and in many other books.

[Truth Files]

All of them taking the same pie and piecing it up for their own ambitious objectives .... same stuff, but with different strokes

[John317]

All of them taking the same pie and piecing it up for their own ambitious objectives .... same stuff, but with different strokes

Many people make the same claim about the entire Christian faith. They see no real difference between the Catholic, Orthodox and the protestant churches. They see them all as the same pie. But are they right?

You talk as if none of those people had any interest in the truth but were only concerned with their personal ambitions. This is no more true of the early Adventists than of Luther, Wesley or Calvin.

[John317]

....

>The evidence is in .... no question about this....

But here's what you originally claimed, and it is not supported by the evidence you produced:

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And do you know that his [Armstrong's] WWCG is a spin off of EGW's SDA?

The WWCG was not a spin off of Ellen G. White or of the SDA church.

Here is what your own evidence found:

Quote:

Church of God (Seventh Day) - The Church of God (Seventh-Day) founded 1863 with an estimated 11,000 members in 185 churches in 1999 in America. They separated in 1858 from those Adventists associated with Ellen White who later organized as Seventh-day Adventists in 1863.

Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God splintered from this. The Church of God (7th Day) split off in 1933 and had an estimated 63,000 members worldwide in 2004.

According to this, the WWCG was a splinter from a splinter which splintered off even before the SDA church came into existence. Is this your idea of a spin off of "EGW's SDA"?

[Lysimachus]

All of them taking the same pie and piecing it up for their own ambitious objectives .... same stuff, but with different strokes

lol, you are hilarious. I could say that you are munching off the same "Jesuit pie". That your entire theology is really the same "Jesuit Inspired Psuedepigraphal Mythology". That your entire dispensational theology is nothing more than the cradle to help hone in the New World Order, and fuel Zionism, and create unnecessary friction between Islam and Israel.

It's all part of the same "Illuminati--Freemasonry--New World Order pie".

[Truth Files]

"You talk as if none of those people had any interest in the truth but were only concerned with their personal ambitions. This is no more true of the early Adventists than of Luther, Wesley or Calvin"

I would agree with you, and the ones you list as examples are suspect .... and the ambitions held can be exposed by the substance of the dogmas they create which contain the seeds of potentially undermining one's salvation .... these things are often not readly detected by those who are attracted

And here is what all of them, even though different, do; and for one to look for with regarding their use of Bible prophecy to gain their positions:

1.Extract national Israel's involvement and central future roll in the Lord's planing

2.Refute the Lord's intent to immortalize His church of both those asleep and living just before He brings His Hour of trial and judgment upon the earth

3.Apply the convinence of selective allegory when interpreting the prophetic scriptures

These significant things must be done in order to make their proprietary religions work .... and all of them do it

[Lysimachus]

1.Extract national Israel's involvement and central future roll in the Lord's planing

[Truth Files]

"Methodists, Calvinists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Wesleyans, some Baptists, and a host of other Protestant denominations subscribe to what you term "Replacement Theology"

This is true .... and these rely upon reformation theology which carries replacement theology as a core precept

In addition today's representation of the majority stock of the above have moved further from the away from the truth by discarding fundamental Bible teaching of the prophetic scriptures and other significant biblical principles in exchange for a social gospel that has totally lost focus

.... but replacement theology is what it is regardless of who sells it

And when set in place, this unscriptural idea opens the door for those who would take the advantage to teach another gospel

[jasd]

>>Thus, I stand by my original comment that I am opposed to Dispensationalism. That is, Dispensationalism as they believe it, just like Predestination as Calvinists define Predestination, even though it is a Biblical word.<<

Okay, “Dispensationalism” as they believe it. Not knowing how ‘they’ believe – works for me.

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>>Cherishing this doctrine will take one straight to gates of hell if after rejecting the Three Angel's Messages.<<

Quote:jasd

Cherishing any doctrine will take one to damnation – should they worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. Focussing only upon dispensationalism is just so much frou-frou.

>>What we believe shapes our spiritual life. Our actions are a reflection of our doctrine. Wrong doctrine, wrong actions.<<

Cuts both ways.

>>Example: If one believes in Dispensationalism, they will not be able to see that they need to keep the Sabbath Holy,<<

No. Writ, as it is written, shows that one – wishing to keep the OT Sabbath – hasn’t the calendrical reckoning to do so. Gd removed its reckoning and sent the two Kingdoms into Captivity so that the COI could no longer profane Gd’s Sabbath before the heathen.

A Sabbatarian keeping the Seventh-day as do the Jews errs – in that the Jews acknowledge that their calendar is not OT. It is Hillelian – created in the 4th century, this era. It is patterned after the Grecian and Babylonian metonic (Gr nineteen years) cycle and closely resembles the Babylonian calendar.

It is manmade contrivance – and cannot be reconciled with the OT Sabbath as given to the COI by Gd.

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“Rabbi Louis Finklestein of the Jewish Theological Seminary of America, was selected by the Kehillas (Jewish Communities) of the World as one of the 120 top Jews who best represented “a lamp of Judaism” to the world. In a letter to Dr. L. E. Froom, dated Feb. 20, 1939, Finklestein readily admitted, “The present Jewish calendar was fixed in the fourth century.” Maimonides and most other Jewish chronologers agree that the modern Jewish calendar is based upon the “mean motions of the sun and moon, the true [calendar] having been set aside.” ” [ed.jasd] (note: Dr L. E. Froom) –jasd

>>...and that it is intrinsically tied to God's Seal/Sign, and that the Papal Sunday is the Sign or Mark of the Beast, who's power and authority came from the Dragon, the Devil.

[jasd]

>>Doctrines are never formed on one single texts,<<

Adam and Eve must have believed that:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

A single text. They should have taken that ‘doctrine’ to the bank.

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Quote:Lysimachus

We see this antitypical realization in Hebrews 11:9-14. The shift has gone from the earthly Canaan to the Heavenly Canaan.

Quote:jasd

Has gone? Isn’t that premature? Sounds like Gd is not faithful to OT promises. Ah well, some Protesting .orgs are bent to the fetish re their NT/Psalms prayer book – and their extraBiblical missives...[ed.jasd]

>>God is always faithful to the OT promises.<<

You’ve just argued that Gd’s determination re His “OT promised” is conditional.

>>Israel was not faithful to them.<<

Indeed. However, what of my proffer of

2 Sam 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

2 Sam 713 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

where one can find neither hide nor hair of a condition? It was an unconditional promise by Gd to David and Solomon.

>>Promises and blessings are always conditional upon obedience.<<

That is absolutely so not true!—can you please point out the qualifying texts re the promises made by Gd to Sarah and Rachel?

>>This is a running theme throughout the Old Testament.<<

I reiterate, “That is absolutely so not true!”

>>The promises to Israel are of a far more conditional nature than unconditional one.<<

You’re losing me: here you admit to the “unconditional” promise of Gd.

>>And since the scriptures cannot and do not contradict themselves, all those unconditional promises (such as Jeremiah 31) are pointing forward to unconditional antitypes--meaning, to those who have the law written in their hearts, which was the New Covenant promise, and such a promise was ratified at the cross. Those who had the law written in their hearts were those faithful Jews and Gentiles were baptized into the Church.<<

That is doctrinaire and makes Gd a liar. [/respectfully]

Don’t forget that Jesus Christ commanded His Apostles, following: “...Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Mt 10:5,6)

And...:

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The above texts sounds awfully like NT Dispensationalism, don’t it?

>>If you would like to see all the texts of this conditional nature, read my article I linked a few paragraphs up.<<

I fully agree that there were many ‘conditional’ promises made to the COI. My brief is with the contention that they were ALL conditional. That is absolutely un(as-in-not)Biblical.

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All the Old Testament types have been redefined.

Quote:jasd

So then, you hold that the Autumnal Feasts will be “antitypically” spiritual events?

>>I do. Many of the Old Testament feasts will be fully realized in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, when we partake of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb,<<

That takes a hard turn left from the clear evidence of OT antitypes having met their types in the Spring Feasts. What text(s) sustain(s) the demarcation from the precedent re the Autumnal Feasts? It takes them past the millenium to the New Heaven and New Earth, post the New Jerusalem coming down from Gd out of Heaven...

I can see where the Sukkot/Feast of Tabernacles may be thought to occur the other side of the Parousia; however, in heaven, in the New Jerusalem?—don’t’ think so. Anyway, wherever it is celebrated, why is it not a Type, but an antitype?

I think it makes more sense to interpret Writ as placing The Trumpets and The Atonement preParousia – with the Sukkot occurring immediately postParousia in the Millennial earth – a matter of like days as the antitypes of Leviticus.

>>...and the Monthly feast by the Tree of Life, as it yields its fruit every month (see Revelation 22:2; Isa 66:22,23)<<

Isaiah 66:24 would pretty much place the new moons and Sabbaths as taking place much closer to the beginning of the millennium that after the descent of the New Jerusalem, I’d think.

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The prophecies do not fail, but their methods of their fulfillment will be fulfilled on a far better and more grand and global scale--with the New Jerusalem at the center.

Quote:jasd

Indeed, ultimately – but that evades the remains of earth and their historical fulfillment.

>>Many of the Old Testament prophecies were "partially" fulfilled, or "partially" met within the Old Testament time frame, but they never fully materialized do to Israel's rejection of the Messiah, and crucifying Him afresh and putting Him to open shame, and then murdering Stephen, the last messenger sent to Israel.<<

Stephen was of the Jews – not Israel per se.

Those were the doings of the Jews in what remained of the Southern Kingdom sans a king. Israel was still in its [2,520 year] dispersion.

[jasd]

>>God would have to be out of his mind to continuing to let Israel have "another chance" after he gave an untold number of chances throughout the Old Testament.<<

As I’ve previously noted: though Gd divorced Aholah – there is no text in Writ showing that He divorced Aholibah.

>>There comes a time when God says "enough is enough, I will now work with a new nation---I will take the kingdom of God away from you and give it to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.<<

That He did. Jeremiah (19) showed that with the prophecy of the broken vessel – that Judah would be broken (a clay jar broken was never put together again) and Gd also gave Ezekiel (37) the vision showing that Joseph/Ephraim and Judah would become one stick. So, wherever one seeks Judah today, he or she must look

for Judah where there is a throne in Joseph – for Gd promised a continual occupation of David’s throne by a descendant from his loins.

Per Gd giving the kingdom to “a nation bringing forht the fruits thereof” – both Writ and history informs that it went to the House of Israel – beginning with the ‘churches’ in Ephesus, Galatia, Colossae, Corinth, etc – with and immediate disposition in the British Isles...

The Roman historian Suetonius wrote circa AD 42 – that Claudius ordered the Xtians in the Isles to be destroyed together with their cities, libraries, and instituions – as, the newly emerging religion from thence represented a threat to the Empire. Claudius invaded the British Isles with the largest force ever assembled by the Roman Empire. Yet everyone reads histories that portray the Brits at the time of Claudius Caesar as painted, forest-dwelling brutes – living with their animals in mud and wattle hovels...

The question arises: is this the nation to which Gd gave the “kingdom of Gd”? It may be, as when St Paul

arrived in Rome – there was already a Xtian church established there. It was established by the Biblical Claudia (the adopted British daughter of Claudius Caesar, nee Gladys, daughter of a British king – Caractacus) who arrived in Rome already a Xtian, as were her mother, and later her brother.

[olger]

Well...

God could have a whole nation of selfish, arrogant people if that was all He wanted. One of my turn-offs with Dispensationalism is that it makes God a racist. This lies at variance with hundreds of bible texts that indicate that God wants people who respond to Him from the heart regardless of their ethnicity, or ancestors.

Ezekiel 18 tells us that God holds each person accountable, sons and fathers alike. It matters who they are now, not who their parents were/are.

musings on the sabbath day....,

`oG

[jasd]

>>One of my turn-offs with Dispensationalism is that it makes God a racist.<<

Indeed?—then one accepts that Gd was an OT as well a NT racist, as Writ bears-out the Dispensation by which Gd holds the children of Jacob Israel. However, it may be that instead -- Gd is

a heart-seeker. Mebbe, even like a cabinet maker who selectively uses the tools (one of which would be the COI) available to Him. Either way, though He reminds us that His ways are not like ours – He’s made provision for all the families of the earth, ie:

Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

>>This lies at variance with hundreds of bible texts that indicate that God wants people who respond to Him from the heart regardless of their ethnicity, or ancestors.<<

Ahh, as I said, “a heart-seeker”. Gd chooses whom He will – and none can come except that He be drawn of Gd.

>>Ezekiel 18 tells us that God holds each person accountable, sons and fathers alike. It matters who they are now, not who their parents were/are.<<

Writ also tells us that they will be grafted into the olive tree – representative of the COI.

Gd chooses whom He will...

[jasd]

>>Many of the Old Testament prophecies that did not fully materialize will be, finally, and fully realized at the beginning and end of the millennium.<< [ed.jasd]

As well, ...during, yes?

>>Remember, I do not believe the earth will be populated during the millennium.<<

Not even by Satan and his angels? Perhaps, it is a matter that you may wish to [biblically] revisit.

>>Dispensationalists use erroneous arguments to prove that there will be births and deaths during the millennium. But there is not a single Bible text in ALL of scripture that alludes to an earthly reign during the millennium.<<

And there are those which “allude” to a heavenly Millennial sojourn...?

The NT treat of the phrase ‘to meet’:

1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There are only four times in the NT that the word meet, in its particularly referenced form and intent (cf 1 Thessalonians 4:17), are used.

James Strong identifies the word meet in these instances as #529 (apantesis; a {friendly} encounter:--meet.) –ed].

Following, are the four times that the NT used #529 apantesis – to meet --with the sense mentioned above, that is, that of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. None of these texts possess material from which to legitimately configure a doctrine for a ‘resurrection and translation’ of saints to the heavenlies --for a ‘millennial rest’, at the Advent of Jesus; rather, there can be parsed only a contradictory meaning.

A simple reading of these four texts yields --another viewpoint. To accept instead, the matter as it is currently being put forward doctrinally, is to, well…, embrace suspect constructives.

Compare: John 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

After going out to meet Christ, all that greeted Him, as well, those with Him, --returned to the city of Jerusalem.

Compare: Mt 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet, the bridegroom. …v6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. … v10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. v11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Verse 10 is clear regards the process involved to meet; there is no indication that the foolish virgins also found themselves ‘caught up’ and hied to the gates of heaven to plead --Lord, Lord, open to us! (v11).

Compare: 1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is no indication here that the redeemed _‘ever being with the Lord in the air’_ are

raptured, in its Fundamental Evangelical sense, as the first step of an ensuing journey, which has its culmination in the dwelling place of Gd, that is, the heavenlies; nor does it imply that the saints are ever to dwell in the air; however, the application by St Paul of #109 aer as in, breathable, circumambient air --in the text, --proves interesting, of itself.

The redeemed, ever being with the Lord_, implies only that the redeemed shall have their dwelling with the Lord, and to meet in the air is, if for reason other that there is something else being performed upon earth while the redeemed are in the clouds, --perhaps a simple matter of protocol. Can one imagine Jesus Christ Gd and the hosts of heaven arriving at earth having no protocol in place, the matter of honour and glory neglected?

Lastly,

Compare: Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage. v16 And when we came to Rome, …

There were in and about Rome taverns, usually at crossroads, that were similar to what our Granges and Union Halls are today. St Paul, upon having been met by the brethren, did not turn about to return to the Levant but rather, the entire company continued onward to --from whence they who had come to greet St Paul, that is, Rome.

To meet, as utilized in NT Writ, establishes that those ‘caught up’ to meet the Lord in the air do so to ‘effectively’ provide an ‘escort’ of the redeemed – for the Lord; immediately returning to --earth with the Lord, --to begin a millennial reign.

Addendum:

Mt 8:34 utilizes ‘to meet’ but bears no relevance

Lu 14:31 also shares no affinity in its use of ‘to meet’

Mk 14:13 employs ‘there shall meet’ with, upon first glance, a slight but insufficient nod to relevance

I am again, compelled to ask,

where, are the texts that say that the earth will be covered in darkness for one thousand years, this same earth, upon which the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan will be bound with chains of circumstance (as per orthodoxy), instead of cast into the bottomless pit, --symbolism, notwithstanding?

Why then should we expect that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 indicates a different scenario than that, which comparison of scripture and precept establishes? Simply, we can’t.

The redeemed will dwell upon Earth during the Millennium – ruling and reigning with the LORD.

[Lysimachus]

Your explanations above are very confusing JASD. Basically, you are dissecting and stretching the Greek words to the limits rather than taking the sentences in their simple, logical form.

It's very simple JASD. We'll meet the Lord in the air. Not on the earth. Not in heaven. Then, from there, He'll take us to heaven. Unless you refuse to reconcile John 14:2,3; Rev. 19:1? Besides, the New Jerusalem is in heaven.

Too many scriptures picture an earth in its chaotic and primordial form after the Second Coming:

Regarding the Second Coming, Jeremiah prophesied and said:

“I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and ALL the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end [The wicked have not been judged yet…the “full end” does not come till after the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire at the end of the 1000 years]. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.” (Jeremiah 4:23-28 )

We see here a very clear description here. The context of the passage, though typically attributed to local Israel and Jerusalem, through divine inspiration foreshadowed the end of the world on an apocalyptic scale which never took place in Jeremiah's day. The immediate context calls for 1. ALL the cities of the earth be broken down (not just Jerusalem), 2. The heavens will be "black" with no sunlight, 3. No man, 4. The earth be without form and void.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep [Greek Septuagint: abussos]. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." (Genesis 1:2)

The Greek word is abussos, meaning anything “vast”, “empty”, deep, and chaotic. This Greek word translates to the Hebrew word tehom. In Job 14:31 and Genesis 1:2, this word represents the vast ocean. In Psalm 71:20 this word represents the depths of the earth. Revelation 20:1 – 3 shows that Satan will be chained to this vast, empty, and desolate world for 1,000 years. Jeremiah in chapter 4:23-29 picks up the SAME language of Genesis 1:2 and describes what will happen to the earth as a result of the Second Coming when all the cities are broken down.

If you weigh ALL the pieces of the biblical puzzle, an amazing picture begins to emerge! It is impossible to read the Bible in perfect chronological order, therefore, we must develop our chronological puzzle piece by piece, and deduction upon deduction.

It may be possible that the "supper of the birds" is symbolic, because in Zephaniah, God will destroy all living creatures at His Second Coming as well:

“‘I will utterly consume everything From the face of the land,’ Says the LORD; ‘I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, The fish of the sea, And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked. I will cut off man from the face of the land,’ Says the LORD.” (Zephaniah 1:2-3 NKJV).

So that would pose a bit of a problem in interpreting the supper of the birds literally. Regardless, the scene being depicted is dead bodies.

When Jesus comes the Second time in the "Day of the Lord", sinners will be destroyed out of it:

“Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.” (Isaiah 13:9-13)

There are many many more Old Testament passages that describe the same thing in different wording, so for now, these should suffice.

At this point, we should determine if this is in harmony with the New Testament writings?

Regarding the day when the "Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), notice what Jesus said:

"(34) I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (35) Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (36) Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (37)And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."

Interestingly, the "Left Behind" novels have used these texts to support their theory that some will be taken to heaven, and others will be left behind during a 7 year tribulation. The implication, however, in these Left Behind Novels, is that those left behind will be left alive. But this ignores verse 37 where the disciples asked Jesus "where Lord?" The antecedent to "where" in verse 37 is "left" in verse 36. Therefore, it is more than likely that the ones left are the ones not saved. Verse 37 concludes that those who are "left", are "left dead!" Wherever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together. That's where! While the righteous are taken to heaven, the wicked are left DEAD! Not alive, but DEAD.

Try repeating that to those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, and it will land on deaf ears. lol.

Once again, regarding the Second Coming we have Jeremiah prophesying:

“Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel. And the shepherds shall have no way to flee, nor the principal of the flock to escape. A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and an howling of the principal of the flock, shall be heard: for the LORD hath spoiled their pasture. And the peaceable habitations are cut down because of the fierce anger of the LORD. He hath forsaken his covert, as the lion: for their land is desolate because of the fierceness of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.” (Jeremiah 25:32-28 )

The implication is clear. Dead bodies will cover the breadth of the earth. They will not be gathered (there is nobody to gather them), they will not be lamented over (there is nobody to lament them, they're all dead), and they will not be buried (there is nobody to bury them). This harmonizes well with Revelation 19:17, 18 and 21 regarding the supper of the birds. What a despicable, horrendous scene!

Not a very appetizing place for people to be living! If the earth is being inhabited by wicked people after the Second Coming, then one must raise the question, why were they not destroyed by the brightness of His coming? If there are any righteous are on the earth during the 1000 years, then we raise another question.... why would God allow them to dwell in such a despicable atmosphere when we know the earth according to Revelation 21 and 22 will not be new until the end of the 1000 years? And why were these righteous saints not caught up to heaven to enjoy the marriage supper of the lamb? How can the earth be habitable with every island and mountain moved out of its place, and all the animals are dead?

The desolated earth theory, in my observation, is the most solid explanation to ALL the dilemmas revolving the rapture. It solves almost every controversy regarding the rapture and millennium problems.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:5, Paul describes the Second Coming. Verse 15 calls it "the COMING [parousia] of the Lord", and verse 16 says the "Lord shall DESCEND FROM HEAVEN". Describing this single event, all the saints are raptured into heaven, but chapter 5 and verse 2 and 3 describes that when the Lord comes, "sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape". So we see here that the wicked receive "sudden destruction", while the saints are "caught up" into the clouds.

Before the wicked are destroyed, God will first allow them to live long enough so that they might see Christ in the clouds:

"(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. (15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Revelation 6:14-17)

We see in the following that the punishment of remaining living wicked takes place at the Second Coming at the same time the righteous are "relieved":

“God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” (2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 NIV)

We see pretty clearly, therefore, that the righteous are given "relief" and the wicked receive "trouble" AT the Second Coming, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels!

1 Thess 2:19 says "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? [Are] not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"

Hence, we see that the rapture, which is the blessed hope, commences at the same event of the presence and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul is writing to the Church.

Speaking to the Church again, Paul writes:

"May the Lord make your love increase and overflow for each other and for everyone else, just as ours does for you. May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones."

Wow, Paul, who is writing to the Church, is appealing to them that they (the Church) might be blameless when Jesus comes with all his holy ones!!!

Repeating Matthew 24:31's account, Mark elaborates on the Second Coming:

Mark 13:27

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Now let's evaluate the Greek being employed here:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from [Gr: Ek, 'out of'] the four winds, from [Gr: Apo, 'away from'] the uttermost part of the earth to [Gr: Heos, 'until' 'as far as 'up to'] the uttermost part of heaven."

Dispensationalists say this event is describing the Second Coming, yet they completely fail to grasp that Mark 13:27 is clearly implying "gathering together" of the Church into the clouds of heaven, just as 1 Thess 2;1,2 and 1 Thess 4:13-17 is.

Mark's account along with the Greek CLEARLY implies that the Lord will gather his people out of the atmosphere after he has brought his people away from the earth up to or as far as the sky. These scriptures are not, in the remotest way, illustrating the return of Church saints with Christ at His glorious appearing. The word "Heos" (to) represents "going up" or "as far as" (See Luke 10:15, John 2:7; 2Cor 12:2; Heb 8:11).

Therefore, when Jesus comes the Second Time, where are the Church Saints that Paul was addressing "gathered to"?

They are gathered up into the sky (the heavens) at the revealing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven!

So are there any more passages that describe the condition of the earth after the Second Coming?

Yes there is. Here we go:

“Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof [some people have argued that “scattering the inhabitants” proves there are people on the earth. No, they are scattered all over the earth, but destroyed. Cross-reference with Psalms 92:9 which says “thine enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.”--plus Psalm 68:2 says "Let the wicked perish at the presence of God"]. . . . The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word." (Isaiah 24:1,3)

What is the fate of Lucifer and his demonic hosts, along with the earth?

Let us read:

“Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth [satan inhabiting the earth]. And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit [the grave]; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high [These are Satan's hosts...they were "high ones" cast out of heaven], and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited [punished - NKJV] [Cross-reference with Revelation 20:5 – “the rest of the dead lived not again till the thousand years are finished”]. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously [This is the end of the 1000 years, after the New Jerusalem has come down out of heaven]” (Isaiah 24:17-23)

We see here a small overview of the "gathering of the wicked" into the pit, and their final punishment will not come until after many days. It is during the millennium that the earth will be left in a chaotic state.

Is there more concerning Lucifer's fate? There sure is:

“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? [another reference to the resurrection of the wicked at the end of the 1000 years] All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house [Job 17:13 – “If I wait, the grave is mine house”]. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.” (Isaiah 14:12-21)

We see small inferences here and there from Isaiah concerning the fate of Lucifer. He will be the "raiment (remaining) of those that are slain". This is why in Revelation 20 we see that Satan will not be able to deceive the nations, because all the kings of the earth are DEAD, and Satan cannot deceive them! He will not deceive them until they are all resurrected at the Second Resurrection, and this is why all the wicked receive the "SECOND DEATH"! Because they all died ONCE BEFORE!

The "Beloved City" in Revelation 20:9 is the same as the New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven. Remember, in verse 11, right after, John describes the "Great White Throne" with the Father sitting on it, and all the dead are standing before God. Notice that the dead are judged. God's Throne is where? In the New Jerusalem. It is in the Father's house in heaven that there are many mansions (John 14:2,3). Just read Revelation 22:1-3, and it tells you that God's throne is in the New Jerusalem (because it is continuing the description of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21). This Great White Throne judgment where all the dead are standing before God is given before John describes the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven in 21:2. Also, John repeats in 21:10 again and describes the New Jerusalem descending out of heaven. Verse 8 in between describes the Lake of Fire again which is the second death. So John is filling in many elements that he was not able to provide in chapter 20, and is simply repeating and elaborating, repeating, and elaborating. It is interesting to note too that Revelation 3:12 also describes the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. Wow, so now we have 4 Jerusalems! lol For certain, chronological order is out of the picture.

Jerusalem is only referenced 4 times in Revelation:

Revelation 3:12

Revelation 20:9

Revelation 21:2

Revelation 21:10

Would it not be strange to conclude that out of all those times mentioned, suddenly only in Revelation 20:9 is John referencing the present-day earthly Jerusalem? Remember that in the entire book of Revelation, the focal point is Spiritual Babylon vs. Spiritual Israel. It is Antitypical Babylon vs. Antitypical Jerusalem…the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly. Consistency demands that if Revelation is not referring to Old Babylon (Ancient Babylon which was conquered by the Persians), then neither is it referring to Old Jerusalem.

The martyrs in verse 4 were resurrected at the Second Coming:

"Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them, And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4 - NASB)

The description here is of ALL the saints. Those that sat on the thrones and judgment was given to them, AND all the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus. ALL these saints (martyrs and non-martyrs) "CAME TO LIFE" (first resurrection---remember...blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection, verse 6), and lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Therefore, there is the proof that the resurrection of all these saints happens at the beginning of the 1000 years, as they “came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years”. 1 Thess 4:13-17 describes this event....they are caught up and taken to heaven—every single saint from Adam to the last righteous person. So you have the Second Coming, all the saints resurrected and taken to heaven, the wicked destroyed, and the millennial reign in heaven begins.

Satan has always wanted to destroy people. He's always wanted to kill people. He's always wanted to have dominion over this world. Well, he'll get what he wanted, for 1000 years. He'll have a 1000 year vacation, and he can have this world ALL to himself. He'll finally get what he asked for. However, he'll have to contemplate the consequences of his actions....he finally accomplished what he wanted to do...and that is to slay all of God's creation. So he can dwell amidst the abyss of carnage....this earth in its vast emptiness, and endless destruction, with no sunlight. For 1000 years, Satan will have to bear through the worst torture anyone has ever experienced....1000 years all alone, with nobody to tempt or manipulate, on this vast dark, destroyed, and abysmal planet.

Note: Keep in mind that Revelation 20:13 where the "sea gives up the dead" is simply a repeat of 20:5 where the "rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished". The nations that Satan goes out to deceive in 20:8 consist of all those that were "dead". Verse 12 confirms that it is all the dead that stand before God. Therefore, all these nations Satan deceives were previously "dead".

[wayfinder]

The following are a collection of texts which would indicate that those who go through the great tribulation are in heaven before the throne of God, during(two witnesses)or after the great tribulation.

Revelation 11:12 NAS

And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

Revelation 19:1

After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, " Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God

Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER." 3 And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER." 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!" 5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, " Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great." 6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, " Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God ; and they serve Him day and night in His temple ; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.