The Truth About Dispensational Futurism!

[jasd]

>>Your explanations above are very confusing JASD.<<

Not really – it’s text, as written. Perhaps, a little more time reading and a little less time filling the bandwidth, eh?

>>Basically, you are dissecting and stretching the Greek words to the limits rather than taking the sentences in their simple, logical form.<<

I dealt with what?—four texts re the phrase “to meet”? There’s no stretching the Greek on “to meet”.

The texts read as they read. Simple. It is only when one attempts to dismiss them for dogmatological reasons that confusion mists the simple read of text.

>>It's very simple JASD.<<

That’s what I’m saying!

>>We'll meet the Lord in the air. Not on the earth. Not in heaven.<<

Yes – with exception. We will meet Him in the circumambient air of heaven. You should have read that.

>>Then, from there, He'll take us to heaven.<<

That’s an infusion into the simple read of text. Doctrinally driven...

>>Unless you refuse to reconcile John 14:2,3; Rev. 19:1?

I did not dismiss John 14. I read it as it is intended to be read; that is, the “place” is a standing, a status, position, rank, order... etc. It is said elsewhere as – coinheritors with Jesus Christ, priests and kings... etc. it is not locative.

Per Revelation 19:1, should you read on down to verse 11 – you’ll find that it begins to detail the Parousia.

>>Besides, the New Jerusalem is in heaven.<<

Presently, yes, it is.

>>Too many scriptures picture an earth in its chaotic and primordial form after the Second Coming:<<

Umm, before the Second Coming...

>>Regarding the Second Coming, Jeremiah prophesied and said:

Quote:

“I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was NO MAN, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and ALL the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end [The wicked have not been judged yet…the “full end” does not come till after the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire at the end of the 1000 years]. For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.” (Jeremiah 4:23-28 )

...and immediately subsequent to the above without break...:

Jer 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks:

Were the above passage of Jeremiaih 4 Millennial by nature – we would not have the anomaly of verse 29 – to confuse. Jeremiah speaks to matters other than postParousia.

>>...through divine inspiration foreshadowed the end of the world on an apocalyptic scale which never took place in Jeremiah's day.<<

You may have gotten it right with the words, “foreshadowed the end of the world...” It, otherwise, does not bespeak

–Millennium–

>>The immediate context calls for 1. ALL the cities of the earth be broken down (not just Jerusalem),<<

Yet, the .Org uses verse 7, same chapter to argue that Babylon is signified by the lion.

Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; [and] thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

Moreover, 4:16 advises us that “ and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.”

The chapter concerns itself with the “cities of Judah”.

>>2. The heavens will be "black" with no sunlight,<<

As in – “the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light”? If so, that would be preParousia.

>>3. No man,<<

Jer 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city [shall be] forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.

>>4. The earth be without form and void.<<

One notices re the prophesied ‘Empires/Kingdoms’ that each succeeding one was described as ruling the entire earth [/extemporizing] ...no matter its borders. ‘Earth’ is used in Writ locatively and relatively.

Don’t know that I should ever be able to address this very long post. We’ll see. Catch as catch can...

[Lysimachus]

The noise of the horsemen?

Jeremiah is switching back to local typology at that point. But the immediate context of Jeremiah 4:24-28 is a shadow pointing forward to what will take place at the end of the world. It is a local typological event that must be extracted and re-applied to the end of the world. This is where you are completely failing eschatologically. Jeremiah 29 is now switching to the city. But Jeremiah 4:24-28 is typologically referring to the entire "earth".

We learn from the local typologies concerning what will take place globally at the end of the world. They are used as teaching devices--local Palestinian settings will be re-applied globally, on a world-wide scale. Conditional typology always points forward to Unconditional Antitypology.

Now if Jeremiah 4 existed without ANY of the additional passages I provided, you might have a case. But scripture with scripture re-enforces the interpretation we have proposed. And it is rock-solid.

To those who think there will be inhabitants on the earth during the millennium---DREAM ON!

[jasd]

>>The following are a collection of texts which would indicate that those who go through the great tribulation are in heaven before the throne of God, during(two witnesses)or after the great tribulation.<<

I agree – and take it further: Jn 11:26 Jesus Christ said that whosoever liveth and believeth in Him “shall never” die. (Gr emphatic double negative!)

Big Sea Change! – from Jn 11:25 “he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” (in the resurrection)

Quote:

Revelation 19:1 After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God; 2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER." 3 And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! HER SMOKE RISES UP FOREVER AND EVER." 4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sits on the throne saying, "Amen. Hallelujah!" 5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, " Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great." 6 Then I heard something like the voice of a great multitude and like the sound of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, saying, " Hallelujah! For the Lord our God, the Almighty, reigns.

Indeed. Goes to what I said above...

Quote:

Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple ; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Indeed. However, note that: this is way before the Great Parousia.

Quote:

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.

Indeed. They went through great tribulation – not loving their lives unto death – and were immediately with the LORD – with four chapters yet remaining before Jesus Christ returns to earth.

But we speak of the Earthly Millennial Reign, yes?

[jasd]

>>The noise of the horsemen?<<

Ain not me – dang shur ain no horseman...

>>Jeremiah is switching back to local typology at that point.<<

Sez who?

>>But the immediate context of Jeremiah 4:24-28 is a shadow pointing forward to what will take place at the end of the world.<< [ed.jasd]

That’s what I said. So, okay... so what’s that to do with the Millennium?

>>It is a local typological event that must be extracted and re-applied to the end of the world.<<

Oh, I dunno. Take a look at

Jer 4:7 The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; [and] thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

The .Org cannot have it both ways – either the chapter deals with the Babylonian ‘lion’ or it is a – wh’s that?—a typological extraction? Oy vay!

>>This is where you are completely failing eschatologically.<<

Sez you.

>>Jeremiah 29 is now switching to the city. But Jeremiah 4:24-28 is typologically referring to the entire "earth".<<

You do not know that. You are “stretching” textual intent.

>>We learn from the local typologies concerning what will take place globally at the end of the world.<< [ed.jasd]

Okay, but you’re dwelling upon “end of the world” events – having nothing to do with the Millennial Reign.

>>They are used as teaching devices--local Palestinian settings will be re-applied globally, on a world-wide scale.<<

I cannot see the argument for a meme – given the forthrightness of verse 7 (above). Seems that except for the blackening of the sky (poetic?) – the seeming ‘apocalyptic’ flavor of verse 7 and verses 23-28, both abbreviated and expanded, parallel.

>>Conditional typology always points forward to Unconditional Antitypology.<<

You’re going to have to explain your use of ‘types and antitypes’. I find your use of them somewhat arcane or esoteric.

>>Now if Jeremiah 4 existed without ANY of the additional passages I provided, you might have a case.<<<

I checked the other texts – and find that to be used as sustaining a dialogic position of ‘millennially Heaven-bound saints’, they are rather numinous – unless, freely interpreted.

>>But scripture with scripture re-enforces the interpretation we have proposed. And it is rock-solid.<<

Rock solid?—and the French had their Maginot Line.

>>To those who think there will be inhabitants on the earth during the millennium---DREAM ON!<<

Gladly, as my position, rightly divided – bears the hallmarks of Gd’s nihil obstat

[Lysimachus]

Might be a while before I'm able to provide anymore thorough or exegetical responses. Getting ready for a big trip here, and I won't be settled to really focus on my posts until late September.

In the meantime, I encourage you all to listen to as many Audio Radio shows as you can by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris at www.HearingTheTruth.org

Also read the book on their website too: "Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion" (12 chapters, 12 PDFs).

[ClubV12]

www.hearingthetruth dot org

...may have been hacked, there appears to a Trojan Horse on that site. Extreme caution is advised.

[Lysimachus]

www.hearingthetruth dot org

...may have been hacked, there appears to a Trojan Horse on that site. Extreme caution is advised.

It works fine for me, and most people. Only certain people say they see that. It's perfectly safe, trust me. I told people to ignore it, and nothing bad ever happened to their computer. I think it is a bug, and the anti-spyware software or anti-virus software is simply misunderstanding it.

[ClubV12]

Could be, I came into the website with a slightly different address and it worked fine.

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/programs/library.htm

...go figure...

[Lysimachus]

Try this one too and tell me what you see:

http://www.hearingthetruth.org/pt_mainpage.html

The 3 "blocks" take you to the same chapters as given in the table of contents, so no point in going there. The Table of Contents gives all 12 chapters. These chapters are block-buster for vindicating our Adventist Historicist principles and dismantling the faulty architecture of Dispensationalism and Jesuit Futurism. I read the full book from cover to cover online, and I can certify that it was more than worth it. I think I learned MORE from this book than any other concerning the "big picture" of the major war that is raging between the False Prophet and God's people.

D.S. Farris, the author (and the radio show teacher (not the host)) passed away last November from heart-failure at the age of 37. It was tragic to the family. It was a shock to Mike Warren, the radio host. Sadly, he was never able to get the book published before he passed away. The radio shows and book live on though. Mike Warren told me that D.S. Farris used to be Dispensationalist, and he gave it up for the Three Angel's Messages. He was so passionate about the Three Angel's Messages, that sometimes he overstepped himself when dealing with those he was once a part of. They say that although he was rough sometimes in his preaching demeanor, he loved people. And even with no money he'd open up his house to poor people.

[ClubV12]

The above link works well for me.

[Lysimachus]

The above link works well for me.

That's good.

You wonder, is JASD paying attention to any of this stuff? Ya wonder. Eh?

[jasd]

Okaayyy..., “definition of terms” is in order, eh? I’ve read nine pages of the [”3-block”] http://www.hearingthetruth.org/pt_mainpage.html link and found the blind critiquing the blind. Will read the rest at a later date.

So, whilst you’ve been piqued with those Televangelist huckster-types selling whole cloth harum-skarum –

I have been dwelling upon Biblcal dispensationalism.

I submit a previous quote:

Quote:

Quote:jasd

There are ‘dispensationalists’ and there are dispensationalists. I am of the unqualified dispensationalists – holding to Writ.

...and ne’er the two shall agree.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

I’ve read nine pages of the [”3-block”] http://www.hearingthetruth.org/pt_mainpage.html link and found the blind critiquing the blind. Will read the rest at a later date.

Case in point: the author in the above link derides ‘rapturists’ – whilst, seemingly, subscribing to the .Org’s belief – that both Enoch and Elijah were ‘raptured’. That’s OT ‘rapture’ – with nar’ a whit of textual substantiation prefiguring a rapture – yet, there is more substance in the NT to support ‘rapture’ than there is in the OT.

Go figure.

I am not one who, necessarily, subscribes to a ‘rapture’ doctrine – I believe that as “they killed the Master...” – well, there it is – the Xtian will go through the times of trouble/tribulation; that is, until Gd begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth – at which time - a ‘way’ will be made for the Xtian to escape. Gd will provide – whether by miraculous shelter or by rapture – I don’t know. It seems that it may be

according to one’s faith... what and how intensely he believes.