Will the real gospel please stand up!

[Robert]

Quote:

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My short list was just a teaser for Robert to expand his gospel horizons. If you notice my 3rd post on this thread, I quoted Lk 4:18,19, which includes: "liberty to the captives.... & to set at liberty those who are oppressed."

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Shall I call you "Your Holiness"? So many Christians are deceived into thinking that they are actually measuring up....We are sinners until we receive our life that is "in Christ" in the heavenly places. Let's review this...

• Col 1:13 For He [God] delivered us from the domain of darkness [this world], and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son [heaven], 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Please note that God has already delivered "us" from this world and TRANSFERRED us to heaven in His Son Jesus Christ.

Where does my good works fit into that equation? It doesn't....My response, faith, accepts what is already true "in Christ"! When I receive my new life "in Him" - then I will measure with God's righteousness. Let's look at that EGW quote:

• -PC- ST

  -PT- The Signs of the Times

  -DT- 06-09-81

  -AT- Idolatry Punished

  -PR- 21

  "Our [context: the believer's] earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then [not now] we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge."

So again the good news is that my new life is in the heavenly places "in Christ Jesus"! When I receive my glorified life that will indeed be good news. What will I be receiving? What is true of me "in Christ"....When was that accomplished? 2000 years ago....

Fruit bearing is good news in once sense....It is good to be delivered from bad habits, but that is the fruit of the gospel and not the gospel itself!

If you make fruit part of what saves me [i.e., the gospel], then the gospel becomes conditional good news or good advice. If I look to your perverted gospel than I must look to my goodness for my ticket to heaven - my standing with God.

No one will be saved because of his or her law obedience....Why? As long as you live you will never be attain to perfection. Who says that? Ellen White!

So you go ahead, Gerry, and make your fruits part of the gospel. That is Catholicism! That is a perverted gospel....You are taking what Christ did and perverting it by adding your rotten, self-righteousness works....It doesn't work that way.

Anything that is done through us is the evidence of receiving the gospel. Your fruits actually prove what gospel you have claimed. So in sanctification God isn't looking to see how good you appear to be, but rather He examines the origin of our works. That is the indicator!

So then self-righteousness works ALWAYS originate from a perverted gospel and will condemn the so-called believer in the judgment.

Again, the subject is the gospel....Everything else is experienced and it's not the gospel.

[Robert]

According to the New Testament, the human nature of Christ is presented in the context of three fundamental truths. They are:

That the gospel constitutes the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

This gospel redeemed us sinners from every aspect of our sin problem.

All Christian experience must be based on the finished work of Christ.

[Bravus]

Robert: I was trying to be concise!

Agreed, we will never be freed from sin in an absolute sense until we're glorified at the Second Coming. But the gospel (I believe) also includes the power of God to progressively free us from the 'besetting sins' that keep us chained up. We don;t need to stop smoking, for example, to be saved, but God has the power to free us from those chains, and that's part of the God news. Same with all the other sins that keep hurting us: they're only cleansed, from a salvation perspective, through Christ's blood, but it's not the gospel if we stay chained up in all of our sins forever on this earth. That denies the power of God to sanctify us progressively.

And, as I've said clearly and repeatedly, the law doesn't save us, and keeping it doesn't save us. Jesus saves us, the law tells us how to live the Good Life. That's what I was talking about with the 2, the 10, the law and the prophets etc. "All scripture is inspired and profitable for reproof and correction."

[Robert]

Quote:

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...the gospel (I believe) also includes the power of God to progressively free us from the 'besetting sins' that keep us chained up.

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That is not the gospel, rather that fits into # 3:

All Christian experience must be based on the finished work of Christ [the gospel].

[Robert]

Quote:

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they're only cleansed, from a salvation perspective, through Christ's blood, but it's not the gospel if we stay chained up in all of our sins forever on this earth. That denies the power of God to sanctify us progressively.

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See...that's traditional Adventism! "In Christ" everything has been accomplished, period! We were made obedient "in Him....We died "in Him"....We now have a glorified humanity "in Him."

What you state sounds good, but it is a progressive gospel - a gospel that must meet certain goals to become effective....Hence it is in the camp of subtle legalism.

Case in point: How progressive must one be before he or she can have the assurance of salvation "in Christ"....I agree that a change begins to happen as we live by faith, but to make it part of the gospel equation is nothing short of heresy.

[Robert]

According to the New Testament, the human nature of Christ is presented in the context of three fundamental truths. They are:

That the gospel constitutes the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ.

This gospel redeemed us sinners from every aspect of our sin problem.

All Christian experience must be based on the finished work of Christ.

Any discussion concerning the human nature of Christ outside of these three fundamental facts of Scripture becomes futile and meaningless.

1. The Gospel Constitutes the Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection of Christ.

The birth of Christ plays an important part in our salvation since it qualified Him to be our Substitute and Representative. We saw this in our last study, the doctrine of Substitution. At His birth, God united the divinity of Christ with our corporate humanity that needed redeeming. This made Christ one with us so that He could rewrite our history and change our status and destiny from that of condemnation to death, which we inherited from Adam, to justification to life [read Rom. 5:18; 1 Cor. 15:21, 22.]

The life of Christ is important to our salvation since He lived a perfect life on our behalf and thus met the positive demands of the law. The law says we have to obey it perfectly in order to live. In this we have all failed. But what we have failed to do Christ did our corporate humanity, which He assumed at birth [read Jn. 3:17; Gal. 4:4, 5; Heb. 10:5-9].

The death of Christ is important because it redeemed fallen humanity from the curse of the law. The same law which says “obey and live” also says “obey and live.” Since we have all sinned and come short of the laws demands, Christ could not save us only by His perfect life. To redeem us fully He had also to meet the just demands of the law. This He did by His death on the cross [read 1 Pet. 1:18, 19; 2:24; 3:18].

The resurrection of Christ plays a vital part in our salvation because it is in the resurrection that God gave us the eternal life of His Son, in exchange for our condemned life which came to an end at the cross. This made it possible for Christ’s humanity to rise from the dead. This new life is what makes it possible for all who believe in Christ to pass from death to life. This is the good news of the gospel [read Jn. 5:24; 2 Cor. 5:14, 17; 1 Pet, 1:3].

2. The Gospel Redeemed Us from Every Aspect of the Sin Problem

Scripture presents sin as a three-fold problem. In the first place, sin is the transgression of the law which results in the curse. Since all have sinned, we all face the guilt and punishment of sin. But, thank God, Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us [read Gal. 3:10, 13].

But sin is more than the transgression of the law. Secondly, sin is also a force, a principle, or a law which has us in its grips. Because of Adam’s sin, we have all been sold under sin and are slaves to it. This is something we fully discover only after we become Christians and try to live the holy life in our own strength. Christ also came to redeem us from this predicament — the power and slavery to sin. That is why He had to assume our sinful nature in order to be our complete Savior [read Rom. 3:9; 7:14, 24, 25; 8:2-4].

Finally, sin is part or our very nature. In order for Christ to save us from the very nature and presence of sin, He had to deliver us from this evil world and make us sit in heavenly places in Christ. This He did in the resurrection and His ascension into heaven [read Eph. 2:3b, 5,6; Phil. 3:20, 21].

3. All Christian Experience Must be Based on the Finished Work of Christ

Every subjective experience of the believer must be based on what Christ has already accomplished for the fallen human race 2,000 years ago. The peace and assurance of salvation we experience through Justification by Faith, the victory over the flesh and holy living we are experiencing through Sanctification by Faith, and the redemption of our bodes we will experience through glorification at the second coming are all based in the fact that all three experiences have already been obtained for us in Christ. The Holy Spirit does not add anything to this but simply makes it real in our experience [read 1 Cor. 3:11; Eph. 2:10].

The only way Christ could have accomplished these three facts is by assuming the self-same human nature we are born with and which needs redeeming. This is the message of the New Testament. Christ was made what we are so that we might be made in Him what He is [read 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 2:14-18].

JS

[Bravus]

It's semantics, Robert. Someone in the thread alredy pointed out the idea that what we include under 'the gospel' is not cut and dried.

I absolutely agree with you that all the work of salvation is done in the instant we accept Christ, and stays done as we're 'in Him' (and I don't mean in any yo-yo sense). If you want to limit the definition of 'the gospel' to that truth, fair enough, that's it.

I'm absolutely *not* saying we have to progress to any point at all along our sanctification journey to be saved. Absolutely not. Aceept Him, be saved, end of story.

But I do think it's part of the 'gospel' - at least to my way of using that word - that he doesn't leave us languishing in the consequences of sin, but immediately starts to help us grow up and out of that. Not because we can, or need to, contribute anything to our salvation by our works. But because He loves us and hates to see us suffering.

We're basically in agreement about everything but our use of the words 'the gospel'. I understand your usage of it, and agree that, as you're using it, it's internally consistent. I use it slightly differently, but the practical consequences for how we're saved and how we live are identical.

[DaveM1936]

Rev 14:6-12

6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, language and people.

7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

8 A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

(NIV)

The Three angel's messages include:

a. God, the Creator.

b. How to worship God

c. end of the 2300 years

d. Apostate Christianity

e. False doctrines

f. Mark of the beast

g. Hell

h. God's commandments

i. Live a life of faithful obedience to Jesus through dependence alone on Jesus.

Of course no one is saved by works. However, if the Holy Spirit is living in us, will He not live out the character of God in us? The law is the character of God. It does far more than just lead us to Christ. In order for us to understand just what all the law included and how to do it, God choose to live it out in a life and record that life for all of us to read.

The law is how God treats people. Christ showed us how to treat people. He ate with sinners. He loved His enemies even while the nailed Him to the cross. He only thought of others. Even while dying, He thought of His mother. He had no bigotry. He was happy to talk with hated Samaritans.

Would you not like to be treated the way Jesus treated Matthew, Judas, Simon the Pharisee who led Mary into sin? He kept the secret of Simon. He loved Mary even while she went back to her prostitution 6 times. Every time He sought her out and brought back into His church. Finally she learned how to have Jesus with her even when He was not in town.

If this is not the gospel, I am not interested in anything else people have to offer.

The gospel never changes. But the aspects of it that need to be emphasized changes with circumstances. One only needs to see the entire world at the funeral to know that people are deceived. I was reading Revelation 14-18 again. Should not we, who know what the future really holds, bring prophecy to the front. Is not prophecy a part of the gospel?

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an everlasting gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, for the hour of his judgment has come; and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the fountains of water.”

This call is to accept the true gospel and turn from all false gospels. Legalism is idolatry!!! It is saying, “No God, let me help you.” It is a gospel of “I” + Christ = salvation…instead of Not I, but Christ.

verse 8 Another angel, a second, followed, saying, “Fallen, fallen is [:"red"]Babylon[/] the great, she who made all nations drink the wine of her impure passion.”

The 2nd message is leave Babylon….Please remember what Ellen White states:

• ”The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion….” [DA 35]

Babylon is a world system based on salvation by works….It is based on idolatry for it denies Christ’s full and complete work….

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also shall drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Ellen White states that the third angel’s message is justification by faith (look it up). Now I don’t readily see this, but I do see a warning not to align oneself with Babylon.

Those who persist on anything but justification by faith (the gospel received by faith) will take the “curse of the law” upon themselves! Why? Because according to the spirit of the law no one is measuring up….Hence the gospel is mankind's only solution in escaping the curse....

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Those who preach the true gospel will be persecuted….This calls for endurance! Will they be retaliating? Will they be taking up the sword, or will they be reflecting their non-violent Savior who stated, “Do not repay evil with evil and all who live by the sword will die by the sword”….Hence, they loved not their lives even unto death….This is the ultimate fruit of the gospel restored!!!!!!!!!

[Robert]

Summary:

1] Restore the gospel

2] Babylon will renounce it and therefore we must warn those in these systems to come out....First it must go to the SDA church. This will cause a shaking....Those who remain faithful to the message will compose the remnant!

3]The 3rd message and final message warns of the consequences for rejecting justification by faith: The 2nd death!

4] Now Babylon fully turns on the remnant....At this time God's people will be reflecting the self-emptying love of God expressed in the spirit of the law, i.e., "they loved not their lives unto death."

1,2 and 3 have to do with the gospel....Number 4 is the fruit of the gospel....Before we can go on about # 4 we had better make sure we have # 1....

Rob

[DaveM1936]

Justification (dealing with the sin problem IN US)by dependence alone on Jesus Christ is only one-third of the gospel. Sanctifcation by dependence on Jesus Christ alone is another third of the gospel. Forgiveness and the removal of sin from us will not enable us to live in the consuming fire of God's presence. Only those who have allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of God in us as it was in Adam before the fall, will be able to live in God's presence. The other third of the gospel is glorifcation. Can anyone give himself an immortal body? Can anyone get himself to heaven?

Here is one of the many statments made by EGW on sanctification. She believed to be as much a part of the gospel as justification. Reading this passage closely, you will find that she beleived that the creation of God's character in us was the work of the Holy Spirit. Our part was to develop a relationship with Christ. As we do this, we learn that we can trust Him. We will never trust ourselves to a stranger. When we see that Jesus is our best Friend and constant Companion, then we will allow Him to do the work that only He can do. Our part from that point on is the focus on the promises He gives us.

"There are many who, though striving to obey God's commandments, have little peace or joy. This lack in their experience is the result of a failure to exercise faith. They walk as it were in a salt land, a parched wilderness. They claim little, when they might claim much; for there is no limit to the promises of God. Such ones do not correctly represent the sanctification that comes through obedience to the truth. The Lord would have all His sons and daughters happy, peaceful, and obedient. Through the exercise of faith the believer comes into possession of these blessings. Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed." {AA 563.2}

Your friend,

Dave M

[Robert]

Quote:

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Justification (dealing with the sin problem IN US)by dependence alone on Jesus Christ is only one-third of the gospel. Sanctification by dependence on Jesus Christ alone is another third of the gospel. Forgiveness and the removal of sin from us will not enable us to live in the consuming fire of God's presence. Only those who have allowed the Holy Spirit to recreate the character of God in us as it was in Adam before the fall, will be able to live in God's presence.

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That is subtle legalism!!! "In Christ" we are already justified, sanctified and glorified:

• 1 Cor 1:30 But by His [God's] doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, that is our justification and sanctification, and redemption [glorification], 31 that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

See, you do not understand the gospel. You have perverted it....Sounds like you need to leave Babylon!?!

[Robert]

-BC- FW

-TI- Faith and Works

-CN- 1

-CT- Ellen White Clarifies the Issues

-PR- 03

-PG- 19

• Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him.

[Robert]

Quote:

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I absolutely agree with you that all the work of salvation is done in the instant we accept Christ, and stays done as we're 'in Him' (and I don't mean in any yo-yo sense).

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On the point of "yo-yo" salvation you are absolutely right, but let me make one clarification. The work of salvation was accomplished not when I accept it, but Jesus was resurrected. My accepting it doesn't make it so...for it was already so. My accepting it simply makes it effective in my life.

[Robert]

• Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

  2 Tim 1:8 Do not be ashamed then of testifying to our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel in the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not in virtue of our works but in virtue of his own purpose and the grace which he gave us in Christ Jesus ages ago, 10 and now has manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher, 12 and therefore I suffer as I do. But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.

[Gerr]

And don't forget judgment. It IS Good News!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

That's been my beef with Robert. He thinks he is giving you a whole loaf when in fact he is only giving 1/3 of it!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

[Gerr]

Since you keep bringing up EGW, allow me to quote her also.

"Christ came to our world to represent the character of God as it is represented in His holy law; for His law is a transcript of His character. Christ was both the law and the gospel. The angel that proclaims the everlasting gospel proclaims the law of God; for the gospel of salvation brings men to obedience of the law, whereby their characters are formed after the divine similitude." 2 SM 106

"God calls upon all who would have everlasting life to copy the Pattern. Truth and righteousness are the first principles of the gospel, and the opnly principles that Christ will recognize in any human agent." 2 SM 212.

"The proclamation of the judgment [in Rev 14:6] is an announcement of Christ's second coming as at hand. And this proclamation is called the everlasting gospel. Thus the preaching of Christ's second coming, the announcement of its nearness, is shown to be an ESSENTIAL PART OF THE GOSPEL MESSAGE." COL 227-228.

Robert, it's time for you to start sharing the full gospel loaf, not just a portion of it.

Gerry

[Robert]

What's that word? Oh, I remember:

Legalist!

"Come out of her, my people"....

[Robert]

Quote:

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That's been my beef with Robert. He thinks he is giving you a whole loaf when in fact he is only giving 1/3 of it!!!!!!!!!!

Gerry

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1] The law of God requires your death. Have you met this requirement? Yes!

• Rom 5:9...We have now been justified by his blood [His life laid down in death]....our old self was crucified with him...[Rom 6:6] one died for all, therefore all died. [2 Corinthians 5:14]

Please note that by dying "in Christ" our fallen humanity has met the justice of the law - the 2nd death.

2] The law of God requires perfect, unblemished obedience to God's law. Have you met this requirement? Yes!

• Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. [How did He save us?] He [God] saved us through the washing of rebirth [the new birth] and renewal by the Holy Spirit [sanctification], 6 whom he [God] poured out on us [:"red"] in Jesus Christ our Savior[/]

Please note that "in Christ" the new birth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit have saved our humanity. Therefore by His doing we have already been sanctified.

3] The law of God also requires holy flesh (a glorified life). Have you met this requirement? Yes!

• ...When we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus....

"In Christ" you have already been (1) justified; (2) sanctified and (3) glorified!!! So that's 1/3 loaf + 1/3 loaf + 1/3 loaf = 1 full loaf!!!

• 1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our justification (1), Sanctification (2) and redemption (glorification (3)). 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”

Now please tell me - how are you going to add to the gospel of Christ? Sure, you can received it...you can experience it, but your can't add to it. Anything outside this truth belongs to the camp of Babylon.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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What's that word? Oh, I remember:

Legalist!

"Come out of her, my people"....

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[:"blue"]Oh my!!! How easily you bandy about your legalist branding iron!!!

[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

The life, death, & resurrection of Christ doesn't mean a hoot, Robert, if He is not coming again.

The life, death, & resurrection of Christ doesn't amount to a hill of beans, Robert, unless He can cleanse your life & mine of sin.

Of no more value than a three dollar bill if it doesn't bring an end to sin in the universe.

Think about it.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

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Now please tell me - how are you going to add to the gospel of Christ? Sure, you can received it...you can experience it, but your can't add to it. Anything outside this truth belongs to the camp of Babylon.

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[:"blue"]Who is adding anything to the gospel? Is not everything I have mentioned so far all in the Bible? Oh, yes, I forgot, your Bible has too many missing passages or perhaps even pages, that's why your definition is so narrow.

And since you keep bringing up EGW, here are some more quotes for you to chew on:

"Health reform in all its phases is included in the gospel." MM159

"The law is the gospel embodied, and the gospel is the law unfolded. The law is the root, the gospel is the fragrant blossom and fruit which it bears." COL 128

"This message [3 angels' messages of Rev 14] is declared to be a part of 'the everlasting gospel.'" GC 312.

"The very essence of the gospel is restoration." DA 824

[/]

Gerry

Gerry

[Robert]

Like I said you are a legalist....Come out of Babylon, Gerry, come out!

Legalism:

• For as many as are of the works of the Law [legalism] are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law [i.e., the first five books of the O.T.], [:"red"]to perform them. [Gal 3:10][/]

  Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

  “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!"

[Robert]

Quote:

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"In Christ" you have already been (1) justified; (2) sanctified and (3) glorified!!!

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Are you denying this truth, Gerry?