Will the real gospel please stand up!

[Gerr]

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"In Christ" you have already been (1) justified; (2) sanctified and (3) glorified!!!

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Are you denying this truth, Gerry?

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[:"blue"]Are you holy now? Are you deathless now?

Interesting how it is that when one's arguments are weak and start to fall apart, that one seems to always resort to name-calling & labeling. Out-of-context! Eisegesis! EGW was immature in her understanding when she said that, etc. etc.[/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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Like I said you are a legalist....Come out of Babylon, Gerry, come out!

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[:"blue"]And join your confusion? No thanks!!!

[/]

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Legalism:

• For as many as are of the
  works of the Law
  [legalism] are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide
  by all things
  written
  in the book of the law [i.e., the first five books of the O.T.], [:"red"]to perform them. [Gal 3:10][/]
  Gal 5:4 You who are
  trying to be justified by law
  have been alienated from Christ; you
  have fallen
  away from grace.
  “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!"

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[:"blue"]I have my doubts that you would recognize a real legalist when you see one. [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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"In Christ" you have already been (1) justified; (2) sanctified and (3) glorified!!!

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Are you denying this truth, Gerry?

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Are you holy now?

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Yes sir!!! I, that is, my glorified life "in Christ" is as righteous and Holy as God is perfect! I am complete in Him.

• Col 2:9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him [:"red"]you[/] have been made complete

[LifeHiscost]

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I'm absolutely *not* saying we have to progress to any point at all along our sanctification journey to be saved. Absolutely not. Aceept Him, be saved, end of story.

But I do think it's part of the 'gospel' - at least to my way of using that word - that he doesn't leave us languishing in the consequences of sin, but immediately starts to help us grow up and out of that. Not because we can, or need to, contribute anything to our salvation by our works. But because He loves us and hates to see us suffering.

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Bravus,

Your understanding of the Gospel seems clear and truthful. However I would add some possibilities. Those that are hung up on sanctification as only important to themselves, for salvation or whatever, are still acting from selfishness interested primarily in their own benefit.

There are essentially three reasons why sanctification, as meaning being removed from sinful conduct while living on this earth, are important. The first most important is that God might be honored and glorified by conduct that reflects Who we get our character from, having the result of others asking why we seem to be without many of the baleful effects of sinful conduct. That gives us the opportunity of pointing to God's care as our reason for a more satisfying and happy experience. This might then lead them to put their trust in Him as the way to eternal life.

[:"red"] "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification..." [/] 1 Cor 1:30 NKJV

The second, which you have already mentioned, is that we suffer less ourselves when removed from sinful conduct that has its own harmful rewards. Again we are then put in the position of revealing physical benefits that help others see that trust in God's counsels are not without present day benefits, which could lead observers to decide to at least investigate the God willing to be personally involved for good in our lives.

[:"red"] "Good understanding wins favor, but the way of the transgressor is hard..." [/] Proverbs 13:15 AMP

A third reason for sanctification (set aside for a holy purpose) is that our pathway on this earth will then allow God to put us in positions of usefulness to affect

others in personal choices for Jesus, something that evil conduct would not permit for the most part.

All three of these reasons can be made goals totally removed from the worry of whether our salvation is involved, since our salvation has already been accomplished by Jesus and our acceptance of His death and resurrection for us. Many will be in heaven who never reach these goals of good conduct to their full satisfaction. However many will be reached for Jesus while efforts are exerted in this direction, in order to be sanctified.

For the person who has no desire to reflect the character of God by personal effort, will influence others for Christ just to that extent. But then I think you already knew all that.

[:"red"] "Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God." [/] John 8:54 NKJV

[Gerr]

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Like I said you are a legalist....Come out of Babylon, Gerry, come out!

Legalism:

• For as many as are of the
  works of the Law
  [legalism] are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide
  by all things
  written
  in the book of the law [i.e., the first five books of the O.T.], [:"red"]to perform them. [Gal 3:10][/]
  Gal 5:4 You who are
  trying to be justified by law
  have been alienated from Christ; you
  have fallen
  away from grace.
  “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!"

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[:"blue"]Can't join you, Robert. I'm already in good company.

[:"red"]"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12 NKJ [/] [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

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"In Christ" you have already been (1) justified; (2) sanctified and (3) glorified!!!

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Are you denying this truth, Gerry?

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Are you holy now?

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Yes sir!!! I, that is, my glorified life "in Christ" is as righteous and Holy as God is perfect! I am complete in Him.

• Col 2:9 For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him [:"red"]you[/] have been made complete

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[:"blue"]Holy while preaching anomia? Impossible!!!!!!! An oxymoron!!!!!! [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12 NKJ

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First of all keeping the commandments is more than simply keeping rules....It is loving your neighbor as you naturally love yourself. This I have proved again and again and again. All you need to do is look at Christ's life....That's law keeping!

Secondly your reference has been lifted out of its context. The context is the restoration of the everlasting gospel; the warning that Babylon has fully apostatized and the presentation of justification by faith as mankind's only solution.

Those who remain after the shaking will compose the remnant. Right now you belong to Laodicea.... However, you can be a 7th-Day Adventists and be in Babylon. Not that the church is Babylon, but YOU can be in Babylon.

Babylon does not mean confusion. This city is used as example of pride, but when you spiritually apply that principle, you come up with spiritual pride -- legalism!

I do believe that the fruits of presenting the genuine everlasting gospel will produce a people who are walking as Christ walked some 2000 years ago….They will have given up everything….They loved not their lives even unto death. In other words when the true gospel is restored the evidence will be a people who are reflecting the agape love of Christ. That, however, is still future….

[Robert]

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Holy while preaching

anomia

? Impossible!!!!!!! An oxymoron!!!!!! Gerry

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Holy "in Christ"! Did I say that I, a child of Adam, am holy? NO!

And I am not preaching against the law....I am telling you that you are not "under the law"! "In Christ" the law has been fulfilled...you know 1/3 justification + 1/3 sanctification + 1/3 glorification....

You sound like those Judaizers who were charging Paul of teaching against the law....Here's that quote:

• Acts 21:27 When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, 28 shouting, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against our people and our law and this place."

[Robert]

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Babylon does not mean confusion. This city is used as example of pride, but when you spiritually apply that principle, you come up with spiritual pride -- legalism!

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• Dan 4:29 ...as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, “Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?”

[Robert]

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I do believe that the fruits of presenting the genuine everlasting gospel will produce a people who are walking as Christ walked some 2000 years ago….They will have given up everything….They loved not their lives even unto death. In other words when the true gospel is restored the evidence will be a people who are reflecting the agape love of Christ. That, however, is still future….

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Why was the Holy Spirit poured out in the early Christian Church?

Answer: As proof that the genuine gospel was being taught!

Not only did all believers have everything in common (no rich no poor), but there were also miracles. This will be the result when the Laodicean Church (the SDA Church) fully restores the gospel. Again, here' how I see it playing out:

• 1] When the gospel is fully restored a shaking will take place.

  2] Those who remain will compose the remnant. Those who leave will join Babylon the great....

  3] The remnant will then manifest the same fruits as the early church....Hence - "here are they that keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus." Miracles will be performed...the dead will be raised.

  4] In opposition to this truth, Babylon appeals to the power of civil governments to enact legislation to stop those who are presenting the third angel's message - justification by faith in verity. Like the remnant they too will be working miracles, but it is the power of Satan.

  5] The third angel's message will enlighten the world with God's truth. Two camps will develop...those under the camp of legalism and those under the camp of justification by faith alone. While one exhibits the attributes of Satan, the remnant will be reflecting the attributes of their Master, Christ....

[benherndon]

Sometimes I wonder if I even WANT to to heaven with you guys!!

I'm sure the feeling is mutual!---so, now, lets go have a good vegetarian(!!) potluck feast and laugh at a sterilized 'joke' or something to take our minds off of religion! Maybe go hope the Sabbath would get over so we could go to the local ice cream parlor and fill our blood vessels with milk and sugar which makes alcohol and numbs our senses!! Maybe drink a little "near beer". The pastor in Idaho had a case of beer in the trunk of his car. When I asked him what he did with this, he said, "I suffer from severe migraines and, do you know what, this is the only thing that willl ease the pain!" I said, "Well, if that's the case, I'm sure God will forgive you!" He smiled. So did I.

Didn't Paul tell Timothy to 'drink a little wine....?'

Ben

[benherndon]

'scuse me, Robert!

[Gerr]

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5] The third angel's message will enlighten the world with God's truth. Two camps will develop...those under the camp of legalism and those under the camp of justification by faith alone. While one exhibits the attributes of Satan, the remnant will be reflecting the attributes of their Master, Christ....

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[:"blue"]This is one of the crazy things about your teachings. You believe that the Christian will reflect the attributes of their Master, and yet claim they are not obeying the commandments! [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

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Sometimes I wonder if I even WANT to heaven with you guys!!

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Read Paul...even Jesus, they fought legalism daily! To say nothing is to support it....Gerry ALWAYS highjacks any gospel posts into his program of works.

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to take our minds off of religion!

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Religion? No, the gospel...

[Robert]

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This is one of the crazy things about your teachings. You believe that the Christian will reflect the attributes of their Master, and yet claim they are not obeying the commandments!

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Not just any Christians...remnant Christians!

The fruit of restoring the gospel will be a people who are reflecting not the letter of the law, but its spirit. But that is future....

This is the fruit of the gospel! It is not the gospel...it does not save; rather it is a tool used as proof that the gospel the remnant is teaching is the real gospel.

The reason I am here is to get Adventists to restore the everlasting gospel to it rightful position.

Rob

[Gerr]

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This is one of the crazy things about your teachings. You believe that the Christian will reflect the attributes of their Master, and yet claim they are not obeying the commandments!

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Not just any Christians...remnant Christians!

The fruit of restoring the gospel will be a people who are reflecting not the letter of the law, but its spirit. But that is future....

This is the fruit of the gospel! It is not the gospel...it does not save; rather it is a tool used as proof that the gospel the remnant is teaching is the real gospel.

The reason I am here is to get Adventists to restore the everlasting gospel to it rightful position.

Rob

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[:"blue"]And the reason I am responding to you is to broaden your concept about the Gospel. The Gospel elephant is bigger than the part you have been describing, and you cheapen the Gospel by insisting that the part is the whole thing! [/]

Gerry

[Robert]

NO, that is a lie!!! The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity....It his righteousness without ONE THREAD OF HUMAN DEVISING....

If the church were preaching the gospel three things would have already happened:

1] A shaking would have occurred

2] The remnant would experience genuine agape love and not this superficial self-righteousness.

3] Christ would have returned and we would be in heaven*

• Note *

  -BC- Ev

  -TI- Evangelism

  -CN- 20

  -CT- The Message Triumphant

  -PR- 04

  -PG- 696

  By giving the gospel the world it is in our power to hasten our Lord's return.

[DaveM1936]

I agree.

Jesus IS the gospel. Everything He taught, everything He did on earth, and everything He is doing and will do is the gospel.

YOur friend,

DAve M

[Robert]

Concerning the shaking:

• -BC- EW

  -TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White

  -CN- 3

  -CT- Spiritual Gifts

  -PR- 02

  -PG- 270

  [in vision] I [Ellen White] asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen and was shown that it would be caused [:"red"]by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans.[/] This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this is what will cause a shaking among God's people.

EGW is referring to Rev 3:14-21

• To the Church in Laodicea

  14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:

  These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

  17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.

  18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire faith] so you can become rich;

  and white clothes to wear [the righteousness of Christ], so you can cover your shameful nakedness;

  and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

  19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.

Repent of what?

• -BC- 3T

  -TI- Testimonies for the Church Volume Three

  -CN- 27

  -CT- The Laodicean Church

  -PR- 04

  -PG- 252

  What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. [:"red"]While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition[:"black"], the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct."

[Robert]

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I agree.

Jesus IS the gospel. Everything He taught, everything He did on earth, and everything He is doing and will do is the gospel.

Your friend,

DAve M

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The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity, period! The gospel is complete...it is finished! That should be your reason for acknowledging the Sabbath for it is a sign that you are resting in God's finished work "in Christ Jesus."

• There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest [the gospel - see verse 2] has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His [work of redemption "in Christ Jesus"]

God’s work of redemption “in Christ” is finished and it is complete! That's the gospel....The sign of that truth will be manifested in the remnant who proclaim the gospel. They will not be keeping the Sabbath from the law's point of view, but rather from the point of view of redemption!

[Robert]

You guys have the cart before the horse....You keep talking law, law, law....

You should concentrate all your attention on restoring the gospel and let the law take care of itself (that's EGW paraphrased).

Every doctrine must be in the light of the gospel! There's where Adventism has gone wrong.....

For example Adventists teach that man does not have an immortal soul (and rightly so), but the question that begs answering is why is immortality of the soul such a heresy?

Answer: The immortality of the soul denies mankind's total depravity...it denies that in mankind there's nothing good (i.e., everything man can do is polluted with self-love; self-seeking and self-glorification).

Therefore if nothing in me is good then my "soul" (or "spirit") is also tainted by the fall. Hence body, soul and spirit is mortal and comes to and end when I die!

The reason the believers' death is called a sleep is because the believer will be resurrected. Not with our old life from Adam, but rather our new life "in Christ"

The heresy of the immortality of soul denies this truth. It denies the genuine gospel....It says, "No, I have something good in me that goes on to heaven when I die." What a lie, what legalism!

Those who reject the restorated gospel will do so to their own demise....They will be deceived by spirit's of devils purporting to be friends and relatives. Why? Because they would not accept the gospel of Jesus Christ....It is self-righteousness, therefore, that will be mankind's downfall.

• Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions.

Why????

1] Again..."the immortality of the soul" denies mankind's utter sinfulness. That in him there's nothing good in comparison with Christ selfless life of agape love.

2] After the gospel has been fully restored, Sunday will stand for "salvation by works" as opposed to the Sabbath that will symbolize resting in God's finished work of salvation "in Christ Jesus."

[Robert]

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1] Again..."the immortality of the soul" denies mankind's utter sinfulness. That in him there's nothing good in comparison with Christ selfless life of agape love.

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Sorry...that is a secondary point

Actually "the immortality of the soul" denies that "in Christ" my new life is already in the heavenly places....[see Eph 2:6]

• And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Where is our immortality...in us??? NO!!! "In Christ Jesus"...

[LifeHiscost]

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The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity

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[:"red"] "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [/] Gal 2:20 KJV

Sounds like Paul recognized an ongoing life, now being lived in a mutually shared relationship including effort on the part of both, not excluding himself or His Savior. He doesn't say his effort adds to his salvation, only that the gift of life is something shared in mutual effort as one receiving a gift.

[Robert]

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shared relationship

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That isn't the gospel....

It simply amazes me what believers will call the gospel. One thing is apparent - those who pervert the gospel do so by adding "I"....

[DaveM1936]

I wish that God's work for me was finished. Then I would not have to fight with old habits and faults and defects. The fact that I have to battle every day to stay connected to Jesus tells me that His work is not finished for me until the work of sanctification is finished inside me.

What would I do if Jesus were not in the Most Holy Place right now channeling God's continued forgiveness and help and power to me? To me, this is as much part of the gospel as justification (which continues as long as we live).

I never worry about being forgiven. God's character includes forgiveness. He IS forgiveness. I am far more concerned about the Holy Spirit getting me ready for heaven, about the work God must complete IN ME.

Your friend,

Dave M