Flaws

[Truth Files]

Reformation based dispensational exegesis carries a number of flaws that need refinement today and there are a number of those who teach it like Hal Lindsey, Jack Kinsella, Bill Salus, Todd Stranberg, Terry James, and the "rapture ready" crowd

I know Lindsey and Kinsella personally and they do have a fairly good grasp of understanding the prophetic scriptures, but here are the prevailing errors [not in any particular order of priority]:

1. There will be no tribulation temple of the Lord's re-built on the temple mount before or during the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

[they say there will be]

2. Gog is Satan in Ezekiel 38 .... not a Russian

[They say not Satan .... but a Russian]

3. The departure [falling away] of humanity at the time of the end has nothing to do with the "rapture" of the church

[They say that this is the removal of the church]

4. There will be no revived Roman Empire based in Europe at the time of the end

[They say there will be]

5. Those "taken" and "left" has no connection with the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize his church

[They say those taken are "raptured" and the rest will be left behind]

6. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have absolutely nothing to do with the Lord's church ..... all of this is a focus upon Israel and the nations during the coming 70th week decreed

[They mix Israel and the church in the Lord's discourse]

7. Those worthy to escape all of the judgments of the time is not a reference to the immortal pre-tribulation church, but to a believing mortal remnant of Israel

[They say that this statement refers to those of the church "raptured" before the tribulation period begins]

8. Satan's beast of Revelation from the abyss is not human, but a fallen angelic

[They say either a political/religious system, or a human of the past raised from the dead]

9. Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35] was not the future little horn described in Daniel 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27; 11:36-45; 12:7

[They confuse this issue and some call it a "double reference"]

10. There will be no "peace treaty" [covenant] made between the prince that shall come [satan's beast in the little horn] and Israel

[They say there will be and that it will be broken by the other prince at the mid point of the 70th week]

11. The time frame of the operation of the Lord's two prophets in Revelation 11 will be during the last 1260 days of the coming 70th week

[They say the first 1260 days because the beast will be ruling during the second 1260 days [42 months]]

12. All of Revelation 12 is a focus upon Israel, the Lord, and Satan .... not just part of it [those noted in 12:17 are believing Israelites still living in the nations at the time .... not gentile believers

[They mix the church into this passage of scripture]

13. The seals of the scroll in Revelation are not part of the linear time lapse of the Lord's coming judgments .... they are previews [portents] of the same

[They attempt to add the portents of the seals as additonal judgment events to those that begin in Revelation 8]

14. Satan's beast in the little horn will not sit in a temple of the Lord's on the mount during the coming 70th week .... he will sit in a temple of his "god"

[They say that the little horn will sit in a re-built temple of the Lord's on the mount during the coming 70th week decreed]

15. The little horn will rise from a confederated Middle East

[They say Europe]

16. There are no events upon the earth recorded in the prophetic visions between the Lord's first and second advents [the end of the 69th week .... and the beginning of the 70th]

[They attempt to insert events upon the earth into the breach in the visions including the events of 70 A.D.]

17. The great city part of MBG will be destroyed by satan's beast in the little horn and his 10 Middle Eastern confederated kings at the time of the end .... if the world is close to the coming 70th week, this "great city" [civilization] will be the USA

[They say that a European little horn ruling a confederated Europe will destroy the Vatican]

18. No one knows the time of the Lord's coming intervention

[Many of them have made false date settings and false specuations for this event and have failed]

[hch]

Reformation based dispensational exegesis carries a number of flaws that need refinement today and there are a number of those who teach it like Hal Lindsey, Jack Kinsella, Bill Salus, Todd Stranberg, Terry James, and the "rapture ready" crowd

Is this a study of errors hoping to stumble across truth?

Better to study truth and the errors will be self evident.

[hch]

Reformation based dispensational exegesis carries a number of flaws that need refinement today and there are a number of those who teach it like Hal Lindsey, Jack Kinsella, Bill Salus, Todd Stranberg, Terry James, and the "rapture ready" crowd

As I understand it, there is no such thing as "Reformation based dispensational exegesis"

The Reformers of the Reformation did not teach it. "Reformation based dispensational exegesis" was developed by the Jesuits to counter the teaching of the "Reformation" that the pope was the little horn that changes times and laws.

Has this Catholic teaching been embraced so much by her daughters, that they forsake the teachings of the Reformers and teach that which the Reformers rejected?

[Truth Files]

No ..... these are facts that present flaws in some of the current dispensational exegesis teaching

[hch]

1. There will be no tribulation temple of the Lord's re-built on the temple mount before or during the coming 70th week decreed for Israel

The current temple is in Heaven. To rebuild a temple in Jerusalem would be to reject the ministration of Jesus in Heaven. To reinstate sacrifices in an earthly temple would be to reject the all inclusive sacrifice of Jesus.

[hch]

2. Gog is Satan in Ezekiel 38 .... not a Russian

The last power to wage war against God's people that is identified in Revelation 13 is allot closer to home.

[hch]

3. The departure [falling away] of humanity at the time of the end has nothing to do with the "rapture" of the church

In countless Scriptural examples, the church went through the trials rather than being removed from them. "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."

[hch]

4. There will be no revived Roman Empire based in Europe at the time of the end

When the Roman Empire crumbled, papal Rome through her adherents plucked up three horns from the area that had been the Western Roman Empire. But now that America is plucking up three horns (Afghanistan, Iraq, & Iran) from the area that had been the Eastern Roman Empire, the Apostate Christian Churches focus on a European Roman power. This totally misses the endtime prophetic insights in Daniel and Revelation.

[hch]

5. Those "taken" and "left" has no connection with the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize his church

Christ says that it will be as it was in Noah's day. At that time, those taken were taken away by the flood and those left were left alive. Thus the common view turns things on their head; making the Scriptures say what they do not and missing the very things that the Bible really does say.

[hch]

6. Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have absolutely nothing to do with the Lord's church ..... all of this is a focus upon Israel and the nations during the coming 70th week decreed

Very unlikely analyse since Jesus proclaimed to Israel: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" (Mt 23:38).

Since Jesus' declaration regarding Israel was immediately prior to Matthew 24, what sense would it be for Him to focus Matthew 24 on the nation that he just pronounced desolate?

Another example of human reasoning explaining away truth that is self-evident in the Bible.

[hch]

7. Those worthy to escape all of the judgments of the time is not a reference to the immortal pre-tribulation church, but to a believing mortal remnant of Israel

There is no "immortal pre-tribulation church"

The 490-years of Daniel ended with Israel's rejection of Jesus and the stoning of Stephen. Individuals in Israel that are grafted back into the vine will receive the promises that apply to God's people. But the same is true of Apostate Protestantism that has become Babylon, God's people must come out of her in order to receive the blessings and avoid the curses. They must be grafted into the vine to receive the blessings that were once pronounced on Israel and then conveyed to the Remnant Church.

[hch]

8. Satan's beast of Revelation from the abyss is not human, but a fallen angelic

In Revelation 13, the first beast is the papacy. It receives seat, power and authority from Satan. In Rev 17, the beast is still the papacy. The 5 heads that are fallen are: popes Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, and John-Paul I. The one that is is John-Paul II. And the one that is to come for a short while is Pope Benedict XVI. And the 8th that is of the 7 is Satan impersonating John-Paul II. Then will the two great errors of the ages merge to deceive the world: 1) Sunday sacredness & 2) the immortality of the soul.

When Satan personating John-Paul II declares that God told him to reaffirm the change of Sabbath to Sunday in his decree 31 May 1998 and that his body is in its crypt in the Vatican but he is here in person: see him, touch him, hear him; the world that is not grounded in Scripture will wonder after this "angelic" being...

[Truth Files]

Henry,

I have to tell you that the theology you have been taught is also a varient form with reformation moorings based upon proprietary replacement ambitions

One even further off of the road than most .... so far off that it is not even on the chart

I would classify it along with those who are dangerously far off: RCC, Muslim, Mormon, JW, WWCG, and MSOG movements

Study your Bible without the added baggage of the SDA organizational teaching and discover the truth

Seriously

[Lysimachus]

Originally Posted By: Truth Files

5. Those "taken" and "left" has no connection with the Lord's coming "harpazo" action to immortalize his church

Christ says that it will be as it was in Noah's day. At that time, those taken were taken away by the flood and those left were left alive. Thus the common view turns things on their head; making the Scriptures say what they do not and missing the very things that the Bible really does say.

I have discovered that either view works in our favor, neither working in favor for dispensationalism.

While I'm not dogmatic on either position (those left are alive or dead), even if those "left" are the wicked, Luke 17:37 would be forced to conclude that those who are left, are "left dead". The antecedent to "Where, Lord?" is "left" in verse 36. In other words, "where will they be left?" But it is also true that the Disciples may be asking "where will they be taken?" So either view works for me. I've read Stephen Bohr's booklet "Taken or Left?", which takes your position. He has some interesting points, but I'm still not fully persuaded one way or the other. The "left dead" view seems to lend more favor to our desolated earth during the millennium position.

[Lysimachus]

Henry,

I have to tell you that the theology you have been taught is also a varient form with reformation moorings based upon proprietary replacement ambitions

One even further off of the road than most .... so far off that it is not even on the chart

I would classify it along with those who are dangerously far off: RCC, Muslim, Mormon, JW, WWCG, and MSOG movements

Study your Bible without the added baggage of the SDA organizational teaching and discover the truth

Seriously

These so called "replacement theology" ambitions you speak of, Truth Files, is nothing more than standard Orthodox Christianity, long before the RCC, Muslim, Mormon, JW, WWCG, and MSOG movements began. As I have already unequivocally established, the EARLIEST Church Fathers ALL held this view--that Israel was realized in the Church. It was not until the early 19th century, after the dispensational movements began to spring forward, that in order to "stigmatize" those who believed the prophecies concerning ancient Israel were realized in Christ Himself, in and through His Church, that they then began to create an imaginary phrase known as "replacement theology", hoping that it would lend Dispensational lines of thinking a favor and psychologically to make people believe that somehow "replacement theology" is "bad" and "evil. But the phrase is misleading, because it was diabolically invented and purposely created to have a "negative connotative sound" to it--to take "jabs" at those who believe the prophecies to Ancient Israel were "concerning Himself"--which means "His body"--the church.

The way Dispensationalists try to stigmatize those who believe this is by trying to make it sound that we have stated that God took another kingdom and replaced the kingdom of Israel. But that is not what the Bible teaches. Israel, from the very beginning, has always been Spiritual. But Literal Jews were GIVEN the caretaking responsibility for the Vineyard, the House of Israel. The House of Israel is, really the House of the Lord--the true Israel. And those who "prevail" and "overcome" the Devil in their life INHERIT this title. Therefore, such individuals are given the prerogatives and privilege of tending the Vineyard and having access and keeping the doors to the house.

The truth is, God did not take another kingdom and replace the kingdom of Israel. God took the kingdom (Israel) and GAVE it to the Church! Therefore, the SAME Israel has NEW vinedressers! NEW HUSBANDMEN! It is the Literal National Jewish Geopolitical Establishment that has been replaced, NOT Israel!

This is why the phrase "replacement theology" is so misleading and deceptive, because it is a coined term to STIGMATIZE those who have the TRUE understanding on Modern Israel, and make them out to look "anti-Semetic".

[Truth Files]

When a professing sect of christianity relegates national Israel to the past by manipulated historical allegory and or by ignorance .... and then says that their proprietary religious organization is now "Israel" .... this behavior is "replacement theology"

The RCC does it, the Muslims do it, the Mormons do it, the SDA does it, the JW's do it, the MSOG movements do it .... an a truck load of others do it [and all of these attempt to steal from each other .... "we are the church" they say .... all of the rest are frauds] .... and satan promotes all of this

This division, argumentation, and discord makes mush out of the Lord's pure prophetic word and christianity a mockery of confusion .... and the devil dances in delight

[Lysimachus]

When a professing sect of christianity relegates national Israel to the past by manipulated historical allegory and or by ignorance .... and then says that their proprietary religious organization is now "Israel" .... this behavior is "replacement theology"

The RCC does it, the Muslims do it, the Mormons do it, the SDA does it, the JW's do it, the MSOG movements do it .... an a truck load of others do it [and all of these attempt to steal from each other .... "we are the church" they say .... all of the rest are frauds] .... and satan promotes all of this

This division, argumentation, and discord makes mush out of the Lord's pure prophetic word and christianity a mockery of confusion .... and the devil dances in delight

What the Mormons, JW's, MSOG, WWCG or Muslims believe is irrelevant. Truth is always mixed with error. They may have some truth--such as that Israel is realized in the Church. But just because they may be wrong in everything else doesn't mean they can't be right on some thing. I would never expect an apostate system to be wrong in everything. It would be too obvious, and Satan is far more sly than that. You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, and say "well, because they are crazy in all these other beliefs, they must be wrong about that too". No, that is not how true students of the Word do things.

The Dispensational Literalistic and Pseudepigraphal view of Israel did not even begin to materialize until the early-to-mid 19th century. These views were more of a "branch-off" from traditional Church teaching on the understanding of Modern Israel. Then to make matters more complicated and confusing, there are individuals as yourself who find all sorts of holes and inconsistencies with traditional modern-day Dispensationalism, so instead of breaking away from this massive flawed system completely, you attempt to patch it up and modify it so that it sounds more "Biblical"--hoping to salvage it from a dead-on-course toward the iceberg. This is what I call a "Dispenstional Spinoff". A desperate attempt to save a massively flawed and deceptive theological construct of monumental proportions.

The RCC, JW's, Mormons, MSOG, WWCG, etc. do not believe that Israel is realized in the Church because this was a product of their own invention. No, these were "spinnoffs" themselves from traditional Christianity who simply happened to CARRY along with them that old traditional teaching of Modern Israel centuries before they came into existence. So to attribute what you term "replacement theology" as a product of these religious institutions is a miserable failure on your part in ascertaining proper conceptual categorization and true origin.

You've proven yourself time and time again to play the "unfair" card in your categorizations, in some cheating form or another.

It is trickery and downright dirty chicanery.

[Gerr]

“Seventy sets of seven time periods have been assigned for your people and your holy city. These time periods will serve to bring an end to rebellion, to stop sin, to forgive wrongs, to usher in everlasting righteousness, to put a seal on a prophet’s vision, and to anoint the Most Holy One

GOD'S WORD Translation. 1995 (Da 9:24). Grand Rapids: Baker Publishing Group.

“Seven times seventy years is the length of time God has set for freeing your people and your holy city from sin and evil.

American Bible Society. (1992). The Holy Bible : The Good news Translation (2nd ed.) (Da 9:24). New York: American Bible Society.

ESV | Jn 19:15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.”

ESV | Mk 15:38 And the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom.

ESV | Lk 13:35 Behold, your house is forsaken

[Truth Files]

"You've proven yourself time and time again to play the "unfair" card in your categorizations, in some cheating form or another.

It is trickery and downright dirty chicanery"

>Sounds like angry boy speak to me .... and it reflects an internal problem .... the mature christian believer never has to resort to the behavior that you display on a public Internet message board

I am going to post information on this very subject soon .... hang on

[Lysimachus]

"You've proven yourself time and time again to play the "unfair" card in your categorizations, in some cheating form or another.

It is trickery and downright dirty chicanery"

>Sounds like angry boy speak to me .... and it reflects an internal problem .... the mature christian believer never has to resort to the behavior that you display on a public Internet message board

I am going to post information on this very subject soon .... hang on

I guarantee you I am not angry. If anything, it is that righteous indignation that motivates me to lay the cards on the table as they are, as inconvenient as it may be to others. Truth is never comfortable. Truth always does not sound nice and sweet.

But truly, it is difficult for me to comprehend how you can contend with these facts I have presented. There is no doubt in my mind that your stigmatization against those who see no dichotomization in God's people (as two distinct separate groups with separate plans in saving them both) is misleading. Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not intentionally tried to mislead us. But I do feel I am safe to conclude that you are guilty for not doing your homework like you should have before prematurely passing on information that had misleading characteristics to it. This procedure does not in any way lend your theological position any credibility.

[Truth Files]

Hold on

[hch]

Henry,

I have to tell you that the theology you have been taught is also a varient form with reformation moorings based upon proprietary replacement ambitions

One even further off of the road than most .... so far off that it is not even on the chart

I would classify it along with those who are dangerously far off: RCC, Muslim, Mormon, JW, WWCG, and MSOG movements

Study your Bible without the added baggage of the SDA organizational teaching and discover the truth

Seriously

On the contrary.

I found the truth from studying my Bible and then I confirmed it in the writings of Ellen White!

If you would study you Bible and leave off the Apostate Protestant teachings, most likely we would be in "one accord"

(small car but big enough for two people)

[hch]

11. The time frame of the operation of the Lord's two prophets in Revelation 11 will be during the last 1260 days of the coming 70th week

Since the books of Daniel and Revelation are 2 witnesses that began to be understood from 1798 to 1844 and beyond; and the papal beast of Revelation 13 had its final fulfillment when Pope John-Paul II received his deadly wound that was healed and he was allotted 42 months from 9/11/01 to his death 4/2/05; Revelation 11 cannot be future. it has to be recent past.

[hch]

12. All of Revelation 12 is a focus upon Israel, the Lord, and Satan .... not just part of it [those noted in 12:17 are believing Israelites still living in the nations at the time .... not gentile believers

What man alive has the foresight to declare who is Jew and who is a Gentile?

When Madeline Albright (who was a Christian) was being confirmed as Secretary of State, during her security clearance it was discovered that both of her parents were Jews. But because of the events in WWII, they decided to raise her as a Christian. She did not know that she was Jewish until it was discovered in her background check.

Likewise, when the ten tribes went into captivity, the seed of Israel was dispersed through the nations. These Israelites did not cease to exist. They married and had children that are here to this day of which many are Christian.

If Revelation 12 was a focus on Israel, you would be hard pressed to know who really constituted Israel. You would reject those of Israel that do not know that they are Isralites, and accept those in Israel that can prove their lineage, but who reject their relationship with Jesus.

The conclusions that you seem to be drawing don't appear to be based on Scriptures or sound logic.

Certainly, I expect better of "truth files." Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. But to mix truth with error only makes the error the more dangerous.

"The Jewish people cherished the idea that they were the favorites of heaven, and that they were always to be exalted as the church of God. They were the children of Abraham, they declared, and so firm did the foundation of their prosperity seem to them that they defied earth and heaven to dispossess them of their rights. But by lives of unfaithfulness they were preparing for the condemnation of heaven and for separation from God." {COL 294.2}

[hch]

13. The seals of the scroll in Revelation are not part of the linear time lapse of the Lord's coming judgments .... they are previews [portents] of the same