WHEN DO TH E SEVEN LAST PLAGUES ACTUALLY FALL?

[miz3]

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:

“Great and marvelous are your deeds,

Lord God Almighty.

Just and true are your ways,

King of the ages.

4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,

and bring glory to your name?

For you alone are holy.

All nations will come

and worship before you,

for your righteous acts have been revealed.”

5 After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed."

Revelation chapter fifteen.

The first sentence tells us there are seven angels with the seven last plagues who will pour them out which completes God's Wrath!

In this same scene John also saw those who had "overcome the 'beast' and his 'image' and over the 'number of his name' (666)! These same victorious ones sang the "song of Moses". Then we are given the words of that song!

Immediately after the saints sing the song the seven angels who had the "seven last plagues" came out of the temple and were given "seven golden bowls" filled with God's Wrath by one of the "four living creatures". The Temple was filled with smoke and no one could enter the Temple until after the "seven last plagues" were completed!

What happens next? Revelation chapter sixteen then tells us that the "seven last plagues:" are poured out!

This passage in Revelation seems to contradict what I have been taught as an SDA! I have always been told the "seven last plagues" fall before the Second Coming!

Yet Revelation chapter fifteen has the "saints already in heaven" before the "seven last plagues" are poured out!

That means according to Revelation chapter fifteen the "the seven last plagues" actually fall AFTER THE SECOND COMING, NOT BEFORE!

[ClubV12]

"I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus’ work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed."--EW 36 (1851)

The plagues begin at the end of Jesus' work in the sanctuary, prior to His coming. The wicked are "enraged" at the thought that the Saints were the cause of the plagues. When Jesus returns, they are not "enraged" they are filled with terror and call for the rocks to hide them.

[miz3]

"I saw that the four angels would hold the four winds until Jesus’ work was done in the sanctuary, and then will come the seven last plagues. These plagues enraged the wicked against the righteous; they thought that we had brought the judgments of God upon them, and that if they could rid the earth of us, the plagues would then be stayed."--EW 36 (1851)

The plagues begin at the end of Jesus' work in the sanctuary, prior to His coming. The wicked are "enraged" at the thought that the Saints were the cause of the plagues. When Jesus returns, they are not "enraged" they are filled with terror and call for the rocks to hide them.

Then who is correct?

The Bible! or Ellen White?

Or, do you have a way to harmonize the two? It is clear from Revelation chapter fifteen that the seven last plagues come after the "saints" are in heaven, on the sea of glass, and sing the song of Moses!

[John317]

The book of Revelation doesen't give all the events in chronological order.

According to Matt. 24, Rev. 19 and first and second Thessalonians, what happens to the righteous and to the wicked at the second coming of Christ?

[Aussiemike]

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

In REV 16 we have the description of the 7 last plagues being poured out.

Revelation 16: 12-21. “Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the Kings from the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs [miracles'], which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, it is done! ” And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was an earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as not had occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.”

Jesus still has not returned inbetween the 6th and 7th plague. He tells us he is still to return as a thief. The second advent is after the plagues.

John sees the people in heaven who got victory over the beast. This shows a contrast between the fate of those who get the mark and those who do not. It is not a chronological order of events.

Look at the context of Revelation chapter fifteen! It is in chronological order!

[Aussiemike]

Look at the context of Revelation chapter fifteen! It is in chronological order!

Yeah right as if i haven't. If it is in chronological order as you wrongly claim how do you explain the fact that in Rev 16 Jesus hasn't returned after the 6th plague?

[Lysimachus]

Aussie, and John317 are correct.

Pre-tribulation Rapturists use this same argument to try and prove a pre-tribulation rapture.

This happens only when performs the following 3 violations to the book of Revelation:

1. They read the book in chronological order.

2. They read it literalistically, rather than literally identifying symbols where they belong.

3. They fail on every account to take in Revelation's chiastic literary structure.

If one reads Revelation 20 in perfect chronological order, you would be forced to conclude that there are 3 resurrections of the wicked, and 3 lakes of fires at different times. Then you'd also be forced to conclude that not all the wicked were burned up in the Lake of Fire in Revelation 22:15. If you read it in chronological order, you will go insane.

In Revelation 15:2, John is simply "fast-forwarded" to when God's people have the victory over the Mark of the Beast and are standing on the Sea of Glass. It doesn't mean that they are in heaven before the 7th plague.

Proof?

Revelation 19:1,2 - "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Question:

After what things?

Answer:

John sees God's people in heaven after the destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18.

Notice that the whore (Babylon) has already been "judged". Past tense!

When is Babylon destroyed? AT the 7th plague!

Revelation 16:17-20

"16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Remember, that Whore and Babylon are the same thing (See Revelation 17:18).

John sees people in heaven AFTER the whore has been judged, and AFTER her smoke rose up forever and ever. According to Revelation 16, however, Babylon is not finished being judged until after the 7th plague has been poured out, and God's people are not seen in heaven until after the Lord has consumed her into smoke.

Your conclusions miz3 can only develop when one does not carefully compare scripture with scripture, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

That is the Biblical way. That is the Adventist way.

[ClubV12]

I do believe the foundation layed by the founders, the pioneers is rock solid. When I come across a bible verse our Sister White quote that seems contradictory or out of harmony with the foundation, I pause. It's certain I don't understand how it fits with the whole. I may not see how it fits, I won't try to force it, I just need more study on the matter. If I can't resolve every litte detail, through personal study and counsel with others, I'm OK with that. It will come in time. There is much we don't yet understand, a sanctified imagination, probing questions, good counsel and study are all good. Gross speculation and/or interpretations opposing the foundational views are a big red warning flag.

It does give one a certain peace, while I wait for understanding, I have much to learn.

[miz3]

Aussie, and John317 are correct.

Pre-tribulation Rapturists use this same argument to try and prove a pre-tribulation rapture.

This happens only when performs the following 3 violations to the book of Revelation:

1. They read the book in chronological order.

2. They read it literalistically, rather than literally identifying symbols where they belong.

3. They fail on every account to take in Revelation's chiastic literary structure.

If one reads Revelation 20 in perfect chronological order, you would be forced to conclude that there are 3 resurrections of the wicked, and 3 lakes of fires at different times. Then you'd also be forced to conclude that not all the wicked were burned up in the Lake of Fire in Revelation 22:15. If you read it in chronological order, you will go insane.

In Revelation 15:2, John is simply "fast-forwarded" to when God's people have the victory over the Mark of the Beast and are standing on the Sea of Glass. It doesn't mean that they are in heaven before the 7th plague.

Proof?

Revelation 19:1,2 - "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Question:

After what things?

Answer:

John sees God's people in heaven after the destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18.

Notice that the whore (Babylon) has already been "judged". Past tense!

When is Babylon destroyed? AT the 7th plague!

Revelation 16:17-20

"16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Remember, that Whore and Babylon are the same thing (See Revelation 17:18).

John sees people in heaven AFTER the whore has been judged, and AFTER her smoke rose up forever and ever. According to Revelation 16, however, Babylon is not finished being judged until after the 7th plague has been poured out, and God's people are not seen in heaven until after the Lord has consumed her into smoke.

Your conclusions miz3 can only develop when one does not carefully compare scripture with scripture, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

That is the Biblical way. That is the Adventist way.

I am not reading "the Book" Revelation in chronological order. I am reading just chapter fifteen of Revelation in chronological order because it is!

The fact of the matter is that Revelation chapter fifteen makes NO inference whatever that the scene pictured is a "jumbled" scene. The Bible clearly pictures a sequential scene at least for chapter 15. It is clear that the saints are in heaven when the seven last plagues are prepared for pouring out!

The fact that this scene pictured in Revelation chapter fifteen does not fit "you narrative view" does not mean that you need to go around twisting, speculating, making complex, something that is clearly on its face very simple!

Who says that the "Adventist way" as you put it is the correct way to view things!?

What I see is that you have decided ahead of time what the sequence should be and then you try and fit Revelation into that "model" to suit yourself!

I also see:

1. Ellen White gave the model and SDA now have to fit that "model" into Revelation any way they can!

2. If other Protestants and other humans used the same "model" (as you asserted in our discussion of Daniel) long before Ellen White then one has to question whether she is "really a prophet" if all she does is copy what other humans have already figured out.

Either way SDA look bad. They are either following a false prophet or they are not a Bible and Bible only Church as they claim to be because they get their Doctrine of Prophecy straight from Ellen White.

[Lysimachus]

Miz3, you cannot read chapter 15 without reading chapters 16 and 19. I just placed the chronology before you, and you have ignored it.

You seem to fail to remember that John is often "forwarded in time" and then "goes back in time", as the angel sweeps John across different scenes--like a movie picture. You might be watching a soldier for example who is just coming back home to his wife, and suddenly the scene sweeps backwards in time to when he's fighting, and got wounded, then it fast forwards again back to the present.

John is just being shown the "contrast" between those who have overcome the beast and those who have not.

Keep in mind also that John might be speaking metaphorically concerning those standing on the sea of glass.

Notice that Paul himself puts the Church inside the New Jerusalem, even though they weren't really there:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." (Heb 12:22,23)

:)

[John317]

Again, what does the Bible teach occurs at the second coming of Christ?

What happens to both the righteous and the wicked?

[miz3]

Miz3, you cannot read chapter 15 without reading chapters 16 and 19. I just placed the chronology before you, and you have ignored it.

You seem to fail to remember that John is often "forwarded in time" and then "goes back in time", as the angel sweeps John across different scenes--like a movie picture. You might be watching a soldier for example who is just coming back home to his wife, and suddenly the scene sweeps backwards in time to when he's fighting, and got wounded, then it fast forwards again back to the present.

John is just being shown the "contrast" between those who have overcome the beast and those who have not.

Keep in mind also that John might be speaking metaphorically concerning those standing on the sea of glass.

Notice that Paul himself puts the Church inside the New Jerusalem, even though they weren't really there:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect." (Heb 12:22,23)

Who says that you must read chapter fifteen along with chapters sixteen and nineteen! I don't find that written anywhere in the Bible!

This seems to me that you are just playing hocus pocus games again with the Bible!

Let me remind you what I said before!

=================================================================================================================

I am not reading "the Book" Revelation in chronological order. I am reading just chapter fifteen of Revelation in chronological order because it is!

The fact of the matter is that Revelation chapter fifteen makes NO inference whatever that the scene pictured is a "jumbled" scene. The Bible clearly pictures a sequential scene at least for chapter 15. It is clear that the saints are in heaven when the seven last plagues are prepared for pouring out!

The fact that this scene pictured in Revelation chapter fifteen does not fit "your narrative view" does not mean that you need to go around twisting, speculating, making complex, something that is clearly on its face very simple!

Who says that the "Adventist way" as you put it is the correct way to view things!?

What I see is that you have decided ahead of time what the sequence should be and then you try and fit Revelation into that "model" to suit yourself!

I also see:

1. Ellen White gave the model and SDA now have to fit that "model" into Revelation any way they can!

2. If other Protestants and other humans used the same "model" (as you asserted in our discussion of Daniel) long before Ellen White then one has to question whether she is "really a prophet" if all she does is copy what other humans have already figured out.

Either way SDA look bad. They are either following a false prophet or they are not a Bible and Bible only Church as they claim to be because they get their Doctrine of Prophecy straight from Ellen White.

[miz3]

Quote:

"Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears.

18 You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20 because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.”[c] 21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”[d]

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[e] 27 The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29 for our “God is a consuming fire.”

Hebrews 9:14-29.

Here is Hebrews chapter nine which includes the text which you took out of context!

It is clear from the context, which I included for your edification, that Paul is not placing the "saints" in Mount Zion but is drawing a parallel between the Children of Israel and their "Mount Sanai" experience with God and the "saints" direct access to God in Heaven!

This text has nothing whatever to do with the text in Revelation chapter fifteen. There is no linkage whatever either in reality, metaphorically, or any other way. Didn't you know this already ahead of time? Just askin'?

Once again you are playing loose with the Bible in order to fit things into "your prearranged narrative"!

This is shameful conduct at minimum and my even boarder on deceitful!

Will you do almost anything including morally questionable tactics in order defend your precious SDA point of view? Just askin'!

As for me I believe we must always be honest in everything we are about even if it means we must admit that we have been wrong and that which we love and cherish has also been wrong!

[Lysimachus]

We already told you our understanding of that passage Miz3. I have no burden to repeat myself. Of course, you do seem to have that burden, and rarely do I have the desire to read repetition which has no exegesis whatsoever, but rather sounds like an emotional broken-record, a jabber-box that is forced to regurgitate that which he cannot digest.

[miz3]

Lysimachus,

You have failed to answer my questions!

1. Who says that you must read chapter fifteen along with chapters sixteen and nineteen! I don't find that written anywhere in the Bible!

2. Who says that the "Adventist way" as you put it is the correct way to view things!?

3. Does Ellen White give the model and SDA now have to fit that "model" into Revelation any way they can?

4. . If other Protestants and other humans used the same "model" (as you asserted in our discussion of Daniel) long before Ellen White then one has to question whether she is "really a prophet" if all she does is copy what other humans have already figured out. Is Ellen White then a mere copiest or is she a Prophet?

5. Are SDA getting their Doctrine from Ellen White in regard to Revelation thus making them NOT REALLY A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY CHURCH as they claim to be?

Please answer these Questions in regards to the Book of Revelation and Revelation chapter fifteen! Thank you!

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

1. Who says that you must read chapter fifteen along with chapters sixteen and nineteen! I don't find that written anywhere in the Bible!

Isaiah 28:9-13 tells me that's how it's done. Chapters 16 and 19 of Revelation are included simply based on deducible logic, and it requires cognitive reasoning capabilities. Warning: Possessing cognitive reasoning capabilities is a prerequisite. Revelation 15:2 is either a "flash forward" that is not written chronologically, or it is speaking of it homiletically, as Paul does in Hebrews 12. Revelation 19:1,2 puts them after the 7th plague, after Babylon has been destroyed. The Second Coming of Christ is mentioned in Revelation 6. Should we conclude that these people are in heaven AFTER Revelation 6??

Also, these chapters had no divisions in the original manuscripts. These chapter divisions were added by man.

Quote:

2. Who says that the "Adventist way" as you put it is the correct way to view things!?

I said it is the "Biblical Way" FIRST. Then I went on to explain that the "Biblical Way" is the "Adventist Way".

Quote:

3. Does Ellen White give the model and SDA now have to fit that "model" into Revelation any way they can?

I've never read Ellen White on this subject. Haven't even looked up any commentary by her on it. I can just see that you're wrong right from just reading the verses in the Bible alone. You are violating the rules of Revelation's literary, as well as chiastic, poetic, cinematic, and panoramic style. If you know what I mean.

Quote:

4. . If other Protestants and other humans used the same "model" (as you asserted in our discussion of Daniel) long before Ellen White then one has to question whether she is "really a prophet" if all she does is copy what other humans have already figured out. Is Ellen White then a mere copiest or is she a Prophet?

She only came to the conclusions of those who "got it right". Not everyone of them "got it right". But God didn't allow ALL men to come to error either. So what she concluded was right happens to line up with those Godly men who DID get it right. And this "right" didn't come together over night. It came together over many centuries, with deep humility, patience, and much tribulation and suffering. Ellen White didn't just "confirm" what many of these Godly men concluded. She also added many more details on top of those foundations to polish it up, and offered several nuts and bolts to help the whole structure come together as Biblically SOLID.

Quote:

5. Are SDA getting their Doctrine from Ellen White in regard to Revelation thus making them NOT REALLY A BIBLE AND BIBLE ONLY CHURCH as they claim to be?

Nope, Methodists will agree with me, several Baptists groups will agree with me (Reformed Baptists especially), Presbyterians, Calvinists, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, etc. etc.... none of them believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. All of them believe that the saints will be in Glory AFTER the 7th plague.

What you are teaching is actually right along the lines of Truth Files. You and him would make a nice team. The pre-tribulational dispensationalists would LOVE YOU!

No promises I will continue to respond to you after this. I didn't come to this forum to spend my life dealing with ex-Adventists. I came here to provide aid and support against the onslaught of the false prophet.

[BobRyan]

According to Rev 15 and 16. The 7 last plagues follow immediately after Christ's role as High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary - ends.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

What does the Bible say happens to the wicked and the righteous at the second coming of Christ?

Look carefully at 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 and 2 Thess. 1: 6 to 2: 12.

Are you saying that the Fall of Babylon occurs after the second coming of Christ?

Rev. 14 makes it absolutely clear that the righteous and the wicked are on the earth at the time the plagues are poured out. The Three Angels Messages are for the purpose of protecting people from the seven last plagues.

Rev. 16: 15 is proof that Christ has not come before the time of the pouring out of the sixth bowel. Christ says, "I am coming as a theif. Blessed is he who watches."

[Lysimachus]

Let's not forget 1 Thess 5:2,3 John317!

[Lysimachus]

Rev. 14 makes it absolutely clear that the righteous and the wicked are on the earth at the time the plagues are poured out. The Three Angels Messages are for the purpose of protecting people from the seven last plagues.

[John317]

Yes, you're absolutely right.

I have some books on the rapture by pre-tribs. Apparently miz3 is among them or at least has some similar beliefs along this line.

[miz3]

Quote:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words."

1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Just who is God bringing with Jesus at the Second Coming?

[BobRyan]

What does the Bible say happens to the wicked and the righteous at the second coming of Christ?

Look carefully at 1 Thess. 4: 13-18 and 2 Thess. 1: 6 to 2: 12.

Are you saying that the Fall of Babylon occurs after the second coming of Christ?

Rev. 14 makes it absolutely clear that the righteous and the wicked are on the earth at the time the plagues are poured out. The Three Angels Messages are for the purpose of protecting people from the seven last plagues.

Rev. 16: 15 is proof that Christ has not come before the time of the pouring out of the sixth bowel. Christ says, "I am coming as a theif. Blessed is he who watches."

In Matt 24 we are told that immediately AFTER the GReat tribulation the sun will be darkened and after that "he will gather his elect from the 4 corners of the earth".

Thus the saints are on earth AFTER the Great tribulation of Matt 24.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

He brings the sleeping saints.

hint: Jesus does not promise the saints something like "I will come again so that you may sleep".

At the 2nd coming Jesus brings with him the sleeping saints - so that they may wake up -- in the resurrection body.

in Christ,

Bob