WHEN DO TH E SEVEN LAST PLAGUES ACTUALLY FALL?

[John317]

Quote:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words."

1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Just who is God bringing with Jesus at the Second Coming?

Paul is saying that this is when the believers will see their loved ones-- at the time of the second coming. Notice he says they are asleep in Jesus. If asleep in Jesus, they are not conscious of being in Jesus' presence.

Verse 18 says, "And in this way we will be with the Lord forever." Paul is explaining how the believers go to be with the Lord. It is not by dying, and it is not by a rapture prior to the second coming. We all go to be with Christ "together" (v. 17).

[miz3]

Isaiah 28:9-13 tells me that's how it's done. Chapters 16 and 19 of Revelation are included simply based on deducible logic, and it requires cognitive reasoning capabilities. Warning: Possessing cognitive reasoning capabilities is a prerequisite. Revelation 15:2 is either a "flash forward" that is not written chronologically, or it is speaking of it homiletically, as Paul does in Hebrews 12. Revelation 19:1,2 puts them after the 7th plague, after Babylon has been destroyed. The Second Coming of Christ is mentioned in Revelation 6. Should we conclude that these people are in heaven AFTER Revelation 6??

Also, these chapters had no divisions in the original manuscripts. These chapter divisions were added by man.

Yes, I can see your method in Isaiah chapter 28. The paragraph before verse nine tells that it is indeed talking about false priests, and drunken prophets. You seem to be saying that you interpret things exactly like these drunken priests and prophets. That admission on your part explains a lot!

Secondly, logic and reasoning are not the criteria for truth. The Serpent in the Garden used "deductible logic" and "cognitive reason" but it was all a lie!

The anti-deluvians used logic and cognitive reasoning and look where that got them!

Not once have you referred to the Holy Spirit as your Source of information. Not once!

You rely only on human power and ability! This is the reason for your wrongness of Biblical Truth!

Third, I know these chapter delineations and verse delineations were put in by copiers and were not part of the original! That changes nothing.

The context is still the context. Revelation Chapter fifteen clearly stands on its own context! Your mixing and matching is done only to suit your SDA model.

[Words here deleted by the moderator.]

[miz3]

I've never read Ellen White on this subject. Haven't even looked up any commentary by her on it. I can just see that you're wrong right from just reading the verses in the Bible alone. You are violating the rules of Revelation's literary, as well as chiastic, poetic, cinematic, and panoramic style. If you know what I mean.

Are you trying to tell me that you have never ever read anything Ellen White wrote about Last Day Events (Eschatology)?

Are you saying that all your information has come from just reading the Bible and the Bible only with your "deductible logic" and "cognitive reasoning"?

That is laughable! Of course you have read Ellen White and she is your "model" for how to interpret Revelation!

[John317]

That is laughable! Of course you have read Ellen White and she is your "model" for how to interpret Revelation!

This is putting words in people's mouths that they have never said. We need to let others tell us what they believe and do; not tell them what they believe or do.

You may think you know, but on the Forum it's necessary to let people explain their own beliefs and practices, and not have others do it for them.

[miz3]

She only came to the conclusions of those who "got it right". Not everyone of them "got it right". But God didn't allow ALL men to come to error either. So what she concluded was right happens to line up with those Godly men who DID get it right. And this "right" didn't come together over night. It came together over many centuries, with deep humility, patience, and much tribulation and suffering. Ellen White didn't just "confirm" what many of these Godly men concluded. She also added many more details on top of those foundations to polish it up, and offered several nuts and bolts to help the whole structure come together as Biblically SOLID.

[Words here deleted by the moderator.]

So much for a Bible and Bible only Church. Its own adherents admit they get it from Ellen White including things not mentioned in the Bible as part of their "belief system"!

[miz3]

You tried!

That is preposterous! That is not what the text says! This is just your "spin" on the clear Word of God!

The text says that Jesus is bringing back those who have fallen asleep in Him! It does not say they are still asleep and He is coming to wake them up!

They are clearly alive and with Jesus Christ when He comes! That means they were with Jesus Christ before He came back to those of His saints who are still alive!

You have no right to twist the clear Word of God as stated in 1Thessalonians 4.

[John317]

Paul's whole point here is that people go to be with the Lord when He comes, not when they die. In 1 Cor. 15: 18 he makes it absolutely clear that after death, the dead are dead and not alive and having a wonderful time with the Lord. Paul makes it abundantly clear that the resurrection of the body is necessary in order for people to experience the presence of God.

See verse 14 where Paul's emphasis is upon the resurrection of the body. He says, "Just as Christ died and rose again, SO [in this same way] we believe God will bring with Jesus those who have died" and been resurrected. That's what Paul is saying.

Notice also that Paul doesn't tell the Thessalonians that the dead are already with Christ. In fact, Paul tells them that the living righteous won't precede the dead. Why not? Because both the dead and the living will go up together to meet Christ in the air. The dead are resurrected at the second coming. Verse 18 summarizes Paul's message by saying that it is in this way-- the way Paul has just described it-- that we all go to be with the Lord forever.

This is how we are to encourage one another-- by talking about the second coming and the resurrection of the dead; not by talking about how the dead are alive with Christ NOW; nor about how the dead will go to be with Christ in the so-called "rapture" prior to the second coming.

[miz3]

It says what it says, John317!

We all can read what it says, and it says what it means! No human explanations necessary!

[John317]

It says what it says, John317!

Yes, it does, I agree.

The same with Ecc. 9: 5 and 1 Cor. 15: 18.

Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

[John317]

Paul's whole point here is that people go to be with the Lord when He comes, not when they die. In 1 Cor. 15: 18 he makes it absolutely clear that after death, the dead are dead and not alive and having a wonderful time with the Lord. Paul makes it abundantly clear that the resurrection of the body is necessary in order for people to experience the presence of God.

See verse 14 where Paul's emphasis is upon the resurrection of the body. He says, "Just as Christ died and rose again, SO [in this same way] we believe God will bring with Jesus those who have died" and been resurrected. That's what Paul is saying.

Notice also that Paul doesn't tell the Thessalonians that the dead are already with Christ. In fact, Paul tells them that the living righteous won't precede the dead. Why not? Because both the dead and the living will go up together to meet Christ in the air. The dead are resurrected at the second coming. Verse 18 summarizes Paul's message by saying that it is in this way-- the way Paul has just described it-- that we all go to be with the Lord forever.

This is how we are to encourage one another-- by talking about the second coming and the resurrection of the dead; not by talking about how the dead are alive with Christ NOW; nor about how the dead will go to be with Christ in the so-called "rapture" prior to the second coming.

Originally Posted By: miz3

We all can read what it says, and it says what it means! No human explanations necessary!

Usually so, but evidently it is necessary to explain it to you.

[Lysimachus]

In Matt 24 we are told that immediately AFTER the GReat tribulation the sun will be darkened and after that "he will gather his elect from the 4 corners of the earth".

Thus the saints are on earth AFTER the Great tribulation of Matt 24.

in Christ,

Bob

Oh but you see, those "elect" are the 12 tribes of Israel that were left on the earth for the Second Coming. All the "Church saints" that were raptured 7 years earlier will be "coming with Jesus" to destroy Israel's enemies at the Second Coming, and setup the temporal millennium!

[Lysimachus]

Yes, I can see your method in Isaiah chapter 28. The paragraph before verse nine tells that it is indeed talking about false priests, and drunken prophets. You seem to be saying that you interpret things exactly like these drunken priests and prophets. That admission on your part explains a lot!

[Lysimachus]

Are you trying to tell me that you have never ever read anything Ellen White wrote about Last Day Events (Eschatology)?

I am hard-pressed to get points across to you without you always twisting them.

I meant that I've never read anything from Ellen White on her placement Revelation 15:2. In other words, no commentary on it.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul is clearly drawing a parallel here miz3, can't you see that? It would make no sense for Paul to say that bringing the sleeping saints from heaven down with Him at the Second Coming is ANY comparison to "Jesus dying and being raised again".

The whole point here is the resurrection. Just like Jesus died AND ROSE, so will he BRING (bring where? Bring up out of the graves to go to heaven HEAVEN! NOT COMING DOWN TO EARTH!) with Him! Where did Jesus go after HE ROSE? To HEAVEN! It's talking about bringing them out of the graves to go to heaven with Christ.

To interpret that text as you are would make the rest of the passage sound completely out of synchronization, and self-contradictory.

It seems that your agenda is to make the Bible appear to be a grotesque monstrosity of self-contradictions.

Once again, you are utilizing the same Pre-Trib rapture arguments, and you are only slowly beginning to reveal what side you're really on.

*awaiting for you to pick on my words and manipulate them again*

[Musicman1228]

Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.” Rev. 11:15.

At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet probation is closed for everyone on earth.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. Rev.11:19.

This shows what the people of the earth have been measured against; that is, the 10 Commandment/Covenant.

Then out of the Temple comes a voice telling the seven angels that hold the seven bowl of the wrath of God to pour those bowls on the earth.

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.” Rev. 16:1.

For whom is this wrath reserved? Certainly not for those with the Seal of the Living God. The Seven bowls are ONLY for those with the Mark of the Beast.

So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. Rev.16:2.

You will have nothing to worry about with respect to the 7 Bowls of Wrath if you have the Seal of the Living God on your forehead. You will be protected from these bowls and from retaliation by those upon whom the Bowls are poured, because after the 7th Trumpet there is no longer any killing of the Saints; there is no longer any need for the testimony of martyrs because everyone on earth has made their choice.

It is important to note that the Bowls of Wrath are poured out in exactly the same order as the order of the Seven Trumpets, except the Trumpets affect the population of the entire world because they are designed to get people to make a choice. The Seven Bowls are not about choice but about punishing the people who have persecuted those that are in the Kingdom of Heaven during the Great Tribulation (i.e. 7 Trumpets).

And I heard the angel in charge of the waters say, “Just are you, O Holy One, who is and who was, for you brought these judgments.   (6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink. It is what they deserve!”   (7) And I heard the altar saying, “Yes, Lord God the Almighty, true and just are your judgments!” Rev. 16:5-7.

At this point we will know exactly when the King will return in the clouds because we can count to 7 and be able to tell where we are in time. All of the bowls of Wrath are future events from where we are in time right now, just as the 7 Trumpets are all yet future.

[Lysimachus]

No Musicman, you cannot use that logic, that just because the 7 bowls are future, that must mean the 7 trumpets are future too.

There are also 7 churches, as well as 7 seals. We believe that the 7 trumpets are to be interpreted in a historicist fashion just like the 7 churches or 7 seals. Trumpets are what lead up to the Second Coming. It makes no sense to sound 7 trumpets all pushed up to the end of time. Trumpets are what gradually lead up to a climactic event. In succession. We have been living in the "time of the end" since 1798 and 1844, and it's only been about 200 years since these dates. That's only a fraction of the age of the earth. We're right at the end of the wire.

You must look at time in God's perspective to see that the 7 trumpets, although interpreted in a historicist fashion, are being sounded right in the last stages of this earth's history, when compared to just how many millenniums have transpired already.

[Musicman1228]

No Musicman, you cannot use that logic, that just because the 7 bowls are future, that must mean the 7 trumpets are future too.

There are also 7 churches, as well as 7 seals. We believe that the 7 trumpets are to be interpreted in a historicist fashion just like the 7 churches or 7 seals. Trumpets are what lead up to the Second Coming. It makes no sense to sound 7 trumpets all pushed up to the end of time. Trumpets are what gradually lead up to a climactic event. In succession. We have been living in the "time of the end" since 1798 and 1844, and it's only been about 200 years since these dates. That's only a fraction of the age of the earth. We're right at the end of the wire.

You must look at time in God's perspective to see that the 7 trumpets, although interpreted in a historicist fashion, are being sounded right in the last stages of this earth's history, when compared to just how many millenniums have transpired already.

Of course I can use logic to show a link between the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. The messages to the 7 Churches/Assemblies are meant ONLY for the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end because this is exactly what is stated in Rev. 1:1-3. The information in Revelation is only going to be understood by the Bondservants at the 'appointed time of the end'. This has been clearly stated by Daniel in Dan. 12:10.

And you are correct when you say that the Trumpets are warnings about the fact that God is coming back to the earth to judge the earth and those who dwell on it. People who are already dead do not need any warning, only those that will be alive during the Great Tribulation will need a warning; which is why God in His mercy provides the 7 Trumpets to wake up the world (not the Kingdom of Heaven that has already been awakened in Matt. 25:1-13). No one that is now dead, or will be dead before the start of the 7 Trumpets, need be worried about outcomes; their outcome has already been decided. Therefore, to say that the 7 Trumpets have already happened means that God would be unfair to those that are alive at the time of the end in not giving them any warning that He is coming.

It is only your opinion that we have been living in the 'time of the end' since 1798, which is a date that cannot be proven from Scripture, and is only proven by conjecture. (We can talk about that later if you wish.) It is MY opinion that we have been living in the time of the end since 1994 CE., which was the end of the 70 weeks of Sabbath years which began in 1437 BCE when God took Israel out of Egypt and made them His Kingdom of Heaven on earth. (Again, we can talk about that some other time.) There is not doubt that the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy ended in 1844, but that does not mean that this date indicates that the early pioneers of the SDA movement were living in the time of the end, it just means that they THOUGHT they were, but the Bridegroom DID NOT COME, which means that it was not the time of the end. It has been over 165 years since the 'Great Disappointment' and still no return of the King.

There IS a 'last generation' that will be alive during the 'appointed time of the end', but that generation was NOT living in 1844. That last generation is alive RIGHT NOW, and we are part of it. The events of the 'shaking' (Matt. 25:1-13) will happen TO US, that is, those of us that live to reach that point. The Casting down of the Censor will happen in our lifetimes, so will the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls of Wrath. The only question is, "Will you be awake and ready for these events or will you be surprised when they occur?" If you believe that they have already happened then if they have not you will be 'surprised'. And with surprise comes uncertainty, and with uncertainty comes confusion; and it is confusion that Satan most desires for the people of the Kingdom. From the texture of our discussions on the forum it looks like Satan is succeeding at this in a big way.

God is not a God of confusion but of clarity. I pray that we will all seek the clarity that will bring us to the truth, so we will not be confused at the time we most need our wits about us. That time is now here.

[miz3]

God expects us to use our brains. The Holy Spirit cannot work as our source of information if we, on our own part, do not exercise the brain power that God has given us. And this is my point. A "prerequisite". I have already explained in previous posts that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate source of strength here to understand the Word of God. So that was a given. You should have known what I meant instead of nitpicking on my words without really trying to grasp the points I'm trying to get across to you.

This is just your way of having to avoid my points. NITPICKING. You need to stop.

John 15:5 says "without me (God, Jesus Christ) you can do nothing!

That means you cannot use your brain by yourself! You are trying to use your brain independent of God!

[miz3]

Quote:

4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul is clearly drawing a parallel here miz3, can't you see that? It would make no sense for Paul to say that bringing the sleeping saints from heaven down with Him at the Second Coming is ANY comparison to "Jesus dying and being raised again".

The whole point here is the resurrection. Just like Jesus died AND ROSE, so will he BRING (bring where? Bring up out of the graves to go to heaven HEAVEN! NOT COMING DOWN TO EARTH!) with Him! Where did Jesus go after HE ROSE? To HEAVEN! It's talking about bringing them out of the graves to go to heaven with Christ.

To interpret that text as you are would make the rest of the passage sound completely out of synchronization, and self-contradictory.

It seems that your agenda is to make the Bible appear to be a grotesque monstrosity of self-contradictions.

Once again, you are utilizing the same Pre-Trib rapture arguments, and you are only slowly beginning to reveal what side you're really on.

*awaiting for you to pick on my words and manipulate them again*

Apparently without your big brain to explain the Bible no one would know the truth?

I guess the Bible is not able to explain itself. How on earth did the world turn when you were not here!

Like Moses God raised these ones before the Second Coming and is now returning to get those who are still alive and belong to Him!

Nothing hard about that. It is what the text actually says without your big brain twistings!

[miz3]

No Musicman, you cannot use that logic, that just because the 7 bowls are future, that must mean the 7 trumpets are future too.

There are also 7 churches, as well as 7 seals. We believe that the 7 trumpets are to be interpreted in a historicist fashion just like the 7 churches or 7 seals. Trumpets are what lead up to the Second Coming. It makes no sense to sound 7 trumpets all pushed up to the end of time. Trumpets are what gradually lead up to a climactic event. In succession. We have been living in the "time of the end" since 1798 and 1844, and it's only been about 200 years since these dates. That's only a fraction of the age of the earth. We're right at the end of the wire.

You must look at time in God's perspective to see that the 7 trumpets, although interpreted in a historicist fashion, are being sounded right in the last stages of this earth's history, when compared to just how many millenniums have transpired already.

I don't see why musicman1228 cannot use his logic? You use logic to solve the puzzle your way and he uses logic to solve the puzzle his way.

I would say one view based on logic is as good as another view also based on logic. It depends on how you view the symbols! It also depends on what "assumptions" you make as the ground of your logic.

Lysimachus uses historical logic and other humans use different logic. It is all the same, it is just human logic based on something else that is human assumption! And all this "logic" claims to speak for God!

The problem is that it is all human devising!

You see Lysimachus you are not better than any other human except in your own mind!

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: Lysimachus

No Musicman, you cannot use that logic, that just because the 7 bowls are future, that must mean the 7 trumpets are future too.

There are also 7 churches, as well as 7 seals. We believe that the 7 trumpets are to be interpreted in a historicist fashion just like the 7 churches or 7 seals. Trumpets are what lead up to the Second Coming. It makes no sense to sound 7 trumpets all pushed up to the end of time. Trumpets are what gradually lead up to a climactic event. In succession. We have been living in the "time of the end" since 1798 and 1844, and it's only been about 200 years since these dates. That's only a fraction of the age of the earth. We're right at the end of the wire.

You must look at time in God's perspective to see that the 7 trumpets, although interpreted in a historicist fashion, are being sounded right in the last stages of this earth's history, when compared to just how many millenniums have transpired already.

Of course I can use logic to show a link between the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. The messages to the 7 Churches/Assemblies are meant ONLY for the Kingdom of Heaven at the time of the end because this is exactly what is stated in Rev. 1:1-3. The information in Revelation is only going to be understood by the Bondservants at the 'appointed time of the end'. This has been clearly stated by Daniel in Dan. 12:10.

And you are correct when you say that the Trumpets are warnings about the fact that God is coming back to the earth to judge the earth and those who dwell on it. People who are already dead do not need any warning, only those that will be alive during the Great Tribulation will need a warning; which is why God in His mercy provides the 7 Trumpets to wake up the world (not the Kingdom of Heaven that has already been awakened in Matt. 25:1-13). No one that is now dead, or will be dead before the start of the 7 Trumpets, need be worried about outcomes; their outcome has already been decided. Therefore, to say that the 7 Trumpets have already happened means that God would be unfair to those that are alive at the time of the end in not giving them any warning that He is coming.

It is only your opinion that we have been living in the 'time of the end' since 1798, which is a date that cannot be proven from Scripture, and is only proven by conjecture. (We can talk about that later if you wish.) It is MY opinion that we have been living in the time of the end since 1994 CE., which was the end of the 70 weeks of Sabbath years which began in 1437 BCE when God took Israel out of Egypt and made them His Kingdom of Heaven on earth. (Again, we can talk about that some other time.) There is not doubt that the 2300 evenings and mornings prophecy ended in 1844, but that does not mean that this date indicates that the early pioneers of the SDA movement were living in the time of the end, it just means that they THOUGHT they were, but the Bridegroom DID NOT COME, which means that it was not the time of the end. It has been over 165 years since the 'Great Disappointment' and still no return of the King.

There IS a 'last generation' that will be alive during the 'appointed time of the end', but that generation was NOT living in 1844. That last generation is alive RIGHT NOW, and we are part of it. The events of the 'shaking' (Matt. 25:1-13) will happen TO US, that is, those of us that live to reach that point. The Casting down of the Censor will happen in our lifetimes, so will the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls of Wrath. The only question is, "Will you be awake and ready for these events or will you be surprised when they occur?" If you believe that they have already happened then if they have not you will be 'surprised'. And with surprise comes uncertainty, and with uncertainty comes confusion; and it is confusion that Satan most desires for the people of the Kingdom. From the texture of our discussions on the forum it looks like Satan is succeeding at this in a big way.

God is not a God of confusion but of clarity. I pray that we will all seek the clarity that will bring us to the truth, so we will not be confused at the time we most need our wits about us. That time is now here.

You see Lysimachus this what "logic" creates. His logic is as good as your logic! He also quotes Bible verses to back up his logic just as you do!

Again musicman1228 has a logic story just as you do, only different.

Who is Right?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

It says what it says, John317!

Yes, it does, I agree.

The same with Ecc. 9: 5 and 1 Cor. 15: 18.

Ecc. 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

1 Cor. 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

John317 you need to quote the whole thought and not just pick out a phrase out of context!

Here is the whole thought:

"For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6.

The text is not saying that those who die will know "absolutely nothing at all".

The context tells us that those who die will KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANYTHING THAT GOES ON, ON THIS EARTH!

That means the dead will not communicate with those still alive on the earth, they will not participate in any way shape or form with what goes on the earth, they will not KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT GOES ON THE EARTH, ETC.

The text clearly does not say that those who have died are incapable of thought! The context tells us different! The clear context is about what is happening "under the sun"! The dead have nothing more to do with anything that goes on "under the sun".

There is nothing here about those who have died in relation to anything else. The text does not say anything about whether those who died go to heaven or remain in the grave. NOTHING!

So according to this text you can ONLY know that those who die or have died have no connection to the "those of us still under the sun".

THAT IS IT!

[miz3]

Quote:

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

29 Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30 And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31 I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,

“Let us eat and drink,

for tomorrow we die.”[d]

33 Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame."

1Corinthians 15:12-34.

Here is the 1Corinthians chapter fifteen passage in its entirety.

1. No where does it say that the Resurrection of the Righteous takes place at the Second Coming!

2. No where does it say that the Resurrection of the Righteous takes place all at the same time.

3. It is saying that as surely as Christ was raised from the dead so we can have confidence that the Righteous will also be raised from the dead!

NO GROUP RESURRECTION, NO RESURRECTION AT THE SECOND COMING, NO SLEEPING FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS WAITING FOR THE SECOND COMING!

You cannot make your point with these texts.

[wayfinder]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep(in death), so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

But he can make his point with this text. Paul is saying that those who have fallen asleep (died) in Christ, will be resurrected when Christ returns for His people. The living at that time will wait for the resurrection of those who fell asleep in Christ and together with the living will ascend into the heavens.

[miz3]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep(in death), so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

But he can make his point with this text. Paul is saying that those who have fallen asleep (died) in Christ, will be resurrected when Christ returns for His people. The living at that time will wait for the resurrection of those who fell asleep in Christ and together with the living will ascend into the heavens.

Read what I wrote about this text earlier. I brought this text up.

This text does not say what you are asserting in your comments on 1Thess. chapter four!