I appreciate this statement by elder Ted Wilson at ASI this week.

[olger]

"God has promised that as we follow His counsel and His ways that His work will prosper and we will finish strong. However, the devil does everything he can to deter God’s people from following Biblical counsel. He brings in every possible aberration and confusing idea that will throw God’s people off-track from finishing strong. I have felt convicted in the past weeks to speak out in a stronger way about certain subjects that, in my opinion, are removing us from God’s mission for His remnant church … things that will take us out of the position to which God has called us. Let me briefly share some of them with you:

1) Guard against mystical beliefs and practices that are finding their way into the church through formats like spiritual formation and the emerging church. The basis of much of this is an emphasis on the experiential and emotional rather than a strong foundation on the Word of God. Read helpful information on this subject in the current Adventist Review ASI Special which our editor, Bill Knott, has organized and which was passed out here at the convention. Note Mark Finley’s two page article and watch for more material that we will be releasing in the near future.

2) Stay away from mystical forms of prayer such as contemplative prayer, prayer labyrinths, repetitive prayer using one word or a certain phrase or centering prayer that seem to have become popular but lead to the occult since in many cases all thoughts are eliminated thus allowing the evil one to invade rather simple and humble prayer of sharing your concerns with your Lord.

3) Resist worship styles and music that have more to do with self-centered entertainment than a humble worship of God. We have to recognize that we have many different cultures and styles of worship in our world church but all should bring glory to God and not to the participants------preachers, musicians and everyone. We need to focus on worshiping God and not elevating self. Music should lift us to the throne room of heaven. I don’t wish to offend anyone and this is my personal opinion, but if music sounds like it belongs to a hard rock concert or a nightclub, it should stay there. This week’s Sabbath School lesson on “Worship and Song and Praise” by principal contributor Rosalie H. Zinke, has some very helpful points. In Thursday’s section, it said, “What is important for worship music is that it point us to the noblest and the best, which is the Lord.” Study Revelation 4 and 5 and the Holy Spirit will lead each of us to the right forms of worship and music.

4) Avoid the practice of inviting major spiritual speakers who are not Seventh-day Adventists to speak to church meetings, men’s meeting, women’s meeting, retreats, pastoral meetings, youth meetings and large convocations. I’m not talking about inviting civic, community, or religious leaders to attend a meeting. We need to make friends with people and share our faith. What I am talking about is asking them to give a major spiritual presentation when they probably have no concept of the Great Controversy theme. We certainly can learn things from others who are not members and should encourage them in their walk towards God’s truth. However, we need to be very proactive in requesting humble, Bible-centered Seventh-day Adventist speakers to instruct our church members in fully understanding God’s great Biblical messages for this time."

submitted by

`oG

[Dr. Shane]

I wonder if we should be avoiding all forms of yoga or if there are forms that can be beneficial to us.

I reject the idea that music with a certain rhythm and beat to it cannot be used to glorify God and edify members of the church. I agree that all music which uplifts self and/or sinful practices has no place in a worship service.

[olger]

yogurt ok.

yoga not.

`oG

[John317]

Biblical prayer has nothing to do with the prayers of Eastern religions. They're actually opposites and have different objectives.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

2) Stay away from mystical forms of prayer such as contemplative prayer, prayer labyrinths, repetitive prayer using one word or a certain phrase or centering prayer that seem to have become popular but lead to the occult since in many cases all thoughts are eliminated thus allowing the evil one to invade rather simple and humble prayer of sharing your concerns with your Lord.

I understand there is a prayer labyrinth adjacent to Andrews University.. True???

[olger]

That's the story, Rudy.

[skyblue888]

God has promised that as we follow His counsel and His ways that His work will prosper and we will finish strong.

________________

Here are important questions for brother Wilson.

Did the church leaders follow God's counsel at the Minneapolis conference in 1888? We know that they did not. Did they follow the Lord's counsel on reorganization given at the 1901 General Conference? We know that at first they assented to it but two years later at the General Conference in 1903, the 1901 counsel as then given by the Lord to the church was annihilated. Six years later the Lord sent this testimony: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

It cannot be denied that the legacy of 1903 is still prevailing today.

At the 1903 General Conference the 1901 reformatory steps were reversed by the leaders in General Conference. God was put aside and again the devisings of men won the day and this has been the order of things ever since.

Hence the Lord's warning sent in 1903:

"Our position is the world is not what it should be." Testimonies, Vol.8,247.

God being put aside and the devisings of men prevailing in the church, fraud and guile would bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. Not being kept by the power of God the men in responsible positions would work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men. (T.M.366)

Thus we have been repeating history:

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear... At the time of the first advent of Christ to our world, the men who composed the Sanhedrin exercised their authority in controlling men according to their will. Thus the souls whom Christ had given His life to free from the bondage of Satan were brought under bondage to him in another form." T.M.361.

The 1901 appeal is sounding for the last time:

"What we need now is a reorganization. We need to begin at the foundation and to build upon a different principle... This meeting will determine the character of our work in the future. How important that every step be taken under the supervision of God. This work must be carried in a very different manner to what it has been in the past years." E.G. White, 1901 General Conference Bulletin, pp.25,83.

If this last appeal is rejected, the Lord will finish the work through men and women of His own choosing, men and women that will not be recognized by the religious authorities.

Here is what is going to happen if there is no change to the present order of things.

"When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. There will be those among us who will always want to control the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in the message to be given to the world. God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that He is taking the reins in His own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means that He will use to bring about and perfect His work of righteousness." T.M.300.

sky

[skyblue888]

In the eyes of the men who composed the Sanhedrin, the disciples of Jesus, for the most part, were obscure fishermen, unlearned. But these had been students at the school of Christ. They had been slow to learn but Pentecost changed all that. Generally speaking the Jewish people looked to their leaders for answers, for spiritual guidance. After all they were supposed to be the custodians of truths pregnant with eternal results. But these had not kept pace with the light. They had lost their spiritual bearings and they were resisting light. So Christ was forced to turn to another class, the poor in spirit, those who felt their need of a Saviour.

So it is today. There is nothing new under the sun. That which has been is that which shall be.

"The Lord has declared that the history of the past shall be rehearsed as we enter upon the closing work." 2 SM 390.

"As in earlier ages, the special truths for this time are found, not with the ecclesiastical authorities, but with men and women who are not too learned or too wise (in their own eyes) to believe the word of God." C.O.L.79.

At the present time, we do not know who these men and women are but we may be sure that when the Lord brings them out in the open, proclaiming their message in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit, the old cry will be repeated, "We know that God spake unto Moses; as for this fellow (Christ in the messenger He sends), we know not from whence he is." John 9:29. See C.O.L.79.

sky

[Dr. Shane]

I was skeptical at first but have really been pleased with Elder Wilson. He seems to be God's man for this time.

[skyblue888]

Shane, in his first speech as president, he made a brief mention about the 1901 Constitution. Remember reading that? He stated that the church today is patterned after the 1901 divine order.

That couldn't be any further from the truth. How could that be true when the 1903 Bulletin shows otherwise? The legacy we have today is the 1903 Constitution which is not after God's order. On the contrary at that Conference "the self-confident management of men resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

The Lord sent the warning that if this was allowed to continue, their faith would soon become extinct!

Some fifty years later concessions regarding the pillars of our faith were made so as to ensure that our denomination could be reckoned among the popular churches that constitute Babylon!

I think you know what I am talking about, don't u?

If he was God's man for this time he would call for a reorganization because that call in 1901 was never heeded.

sky

*The 1901 divine order did not make room for the position of president of the General Conference. The position was eliminated only to be assumed shortly after in 1902 by A.G. Daniells and the 1903 General Conference reversed the reformatory steps taken in 1901 and officially voted A.G. Daniells as president, thus putting God aside and adopting, once again, the devisings of men.

[John317]

I agree with you, Shane.

[skyblue888]

How can you agree with him when it is clear that Ted Wilson contradicts the facts of history as presented in the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins and the Testimonies?

sky

[John317]

I'm agreeing with him that Ted Wilson appears to be God's man for this time. I do believe that much.

[skyblue888]

Many of us have not a clue as to what led to the present structure of organization. By 1855 the church had fallen into the Laodicean condition. In order to preserve the theory of the truth, God allowed His professed people to become like the nations around them, to elect a man as "president" of the church just as He allowed the Israelites to have a man as their king but that was not His way for them anymore than it was His way that we should have a man as president of His church and have a constitution after men's ways of conducting temporal affairs.

But following Christ's ascension, was any of the apostles elected as "president" of the Early Church? Absolutely not. The Early Church was organized according to the divine order. Christ was the invisible Head of that church. The Holy Ghost was King.

When one studies the General Conference bulletins between 1888 and 1903, it becomes very clear that in 1901 again the leading men were given the opportunity to adopt Gospel order as recorded in the book of Acts. The presidency was eliminated and steps were taken to bring about a totally different order of things which would have been according to God's plan of oganization and in which Christ could become the Head of every man in the church. Steps were then taken in that direction but this plan was repudiated in 1903 in General Conference and this is why the present order of things which is after men's order, men's constitutions, is doomed to fail. Where in the book of Acts, the book of primitive faith and godliness, do we find a visible head of the church called the president? where do we find by-laws, rules and regulations, voting, resolutions, church manual, church creed, etc etc

"I have been shown that the Jewish nation were not brought suddenly into their condition of thought and practice. From generation to generation they were working on false theories, carrying out principles opposed to the truth, and combining with their religion thoughts and plans that were the product of human minds. Human inventions were made supreme....

Immediately following the above, Mrs. White makes an application to our own day by showing that we are repeating the history of ancient Israel:

"The holy principles that God has given are represented as the sacred fire, but common fire has been used in place of the sacred. Plans contrary to truth and righteousness are introduced in a subtle manner on the plea that this must be done, and that must be done, 'because it is for the advancement of the cause of God.' But it is the devising of men that leads to oppression, injustice, and wickedness... Those who are enjoined to represent the attributes of the Lord's character, step from the Bible platform, and in their human judgment devise rules and resolutions to force the will of others. The devisings for forcing men to follow the prescriptions of other men are instituting an order of things that overrides sympathy and tender compassion, that blinds the eyes to mercy, justice, and the love of God. Moral influence and personal responsibility are trodden underfoot." T.M.359-361.

In 1907 she warned: "The self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue, your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

This order of things is still with us today and we can expect the following prediction to be fulfilled to the very letter:

"When light goes forth to lighten the earth, instead of coming up to the help of the Lord, they (the leaders who have put Him aside and accepted the devisings of men) will want to bind about His work to meet their narrow ideas. Let me tell you that the Lord will work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning." T.M.300.

sky

[skyblue888]

On the subject of "organization," taken from the 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.150:

The Chair: P.T.Magan made a request to speak on the question as a whole. If there is no objection, his request will be granted.

P.T. Magan:

"I fully appreciate the gravity of this situation, and I have absolutely no intention of in any way filibustering or trying to use a little time in which to say nothing.

As a member of the minority committee, and as a man, I am conscientiously opposed to the proposed new constitution. I have always felt that the hardest place that any man could be put in in this life is to have to stand conscientiously opposed to what the majority of his brethren believe to be right. To me it has always appeared to be a much easier thing to stand in a position of opposition to the world, and even to have to face a court of justice in the world, for your faith, than to have to face your brethren for your faith. And therefore I shall say today, as briefly and modestly as I know how, what I have to say.

The minority report expresses in a word the feelings which actuated the minority in making the report, because we believe that the constitution poposed by the majority of the committee appears to us to be so subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conferences of 1897 and 1901. Those principles were given to us by the Spirit of God. In my judgment, and in the judgment of the minority of the committee, this constitution (1903) is absolutely subversive of those principles.

Further: The proposed new constitution reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and the principles which were given, and which were adopted as the principles of reorganization, at the General Confrences of 1897 and 1901, and which were incorporated in the constitution of 1901.

Now, I am not here for a moment to state that the constitution of 1901 is a perfect one. To my mind, in many respects, it is very imperfect. To my mind, in many respects it is very clumsily drawn. But I have learned this, that all reforms come gradually, and in that constitution, clumsy though you may call it, defective though you may mark it, there are principles of reformation and reorganization for the head of this work which are right; and those principles are swept aside in the proposed new constitution.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

P.T. Magan: It may be stated there is nothing in this new constitution which is not abundantly safeguarded by the provisions of it; but I want to say to you that any man who has ever read 'Neander's History of the Christian Church,' Mosheim's, or any of the other of the great church historians,--any man who has ever read those histories can come to no other conclusion but that the principles which are to be brought in through this proposed constitution, are the same principles, and in the way in which they are brought in, and introduced in precisely the same way, as they were hundreds of years ago when the Papacy was made.

Further: This whole house must recognize this, before we are through with this discussion, that the proposed constitution, whatever improvements may be claimed for it, whatever asvantages it may be stated that it contains, that, in principle, as far as the head of this work is concerned, it goes back precisely where we were before the reformatory steps of two years ago. I do not deny for a moment but that improvements have been made in the distribution of administrative power. I am heartily in favor of all that has been done in regard to Union Conferences, but I say that, as far as the head of the thing is concerned, as far as the general administration of things is concerned, though not couched in the same words, though not hedged about with the same identical language, they are precisely the same principles which governed us up to two years ago; and that the moment you vote this constitution, which I do not believe you are ready to do, yet, when you understand this, the moment you vote it you vote yourselves right back where we were two years ago and before it.

To be continued

[Tom Wetmore]

A whole lot of water under the bridge since then...

In fact I think that old bridge washed out long ago when the river changes its path in a different direction. Newer safer bridges now span those troubled waters.

You can put away your buggy whip...

[John317]

I think so too, but I believe sky's viewpoint is that God does not mean for us to elect presidents, etc. Sky can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I think that's his position.

[skyblue888]

P.T. Magan:

Another point: It is a fact which I do not believe any one in this house will deny, but that for many years every General Conference that we have come to has been more or less of a crisis over the question of the progress of the General Conference administration. Beginning with the General Conference at Oakland, fifteen or sixteen years ago, whenever it was, and passing through Minneapolis down through one or two Conferences at Battle Creek to the General Conference held at College View, and then to the last General Conference held in Battle Creek, every one we have come up to has involved, to a greater or less extent, a crisis over this question. It is true that in some of these Conferences it has not come to the surface as prominently as in others. It is equally true that in others of these General Conferences this question has come to the surface most prominently, and been the chief thing for discussion and the burden of thought at those Conferences.

Now I want to say, in all candor and sincerity, this afternoon, that this question will never, and can never be, settled until it is settled right. This whole new constitution may pass this body, I do not know, but that will not settle it. This thing will keep on coming up until the principles of the gospel, approximated and aimed at in the last constitution, (1901) are given their full and free place in this church. And any human device that may be adopted to forestall that thing will fail as utterly of forestalling it as did the attempt of the enemy to forestall Christianity by crucifying Jesus Christ.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

P.T. Magan: I do not know that I need to take much more time now, as I, of course, will have the right which every other brother has, as the different items are considered, to state my views on each item as it is considered. I simply wanted to make that point clear and plain in principle, and it will come out in detail as we go along in the consideration of the constitution,--this one point that the adoption of this means the rejection of the principles of organization given us by the Spirit of God two years ago, and the discussion of each provision of this, and of the major provisions of this, will abundantly reveal that that is so, when read in connection with the writings given at that time, and with the discussions of that period.

Now, it makes no difference whether the different things in this are brought in in a different form to what they were previously, it is the same old idea of the world-wide administration of a few men being able to form a quorum, to carry out what they think is the mind of the whole.

In closing, I will state that for years this thing has been up. For years there has been dissatisfaction upon the part of certain lines of the work, and a growing dissatisfaction at this, and we are now brought face to face with the crisis, either that all lines will have the fullest freedom and the fullest recognition, and peace and harmony will prevail, or they will not have it, and this kind of thing will go on.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

A whole lot of water under the bridge since then...

In fact I think that old bridge washed out long ago when the river changes its path in a different direction. Newer safer bridges now span those troubled waters.

You can put away your buggy whip...

The direction it took was expressed in these inspired words:

"The self-confident management of man has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men. If you allow this to continue your faith will soon become extinct." T.M.481.

This testimony was sent in 1907.

sky

[skyblue888]

I think so too, but I believe sky's viewpoint is that God does not mean for us to elect presidents, etc. Sky can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but I think that's his position.

It is my viewpoint only because it is the viewpoint expressed by the Lord, especially at the General Conferences of 1897,1901,1903.

sky

[John317]

I'm not persuaded that God does not want the SDA church to have presidents. It seems to me that the issues had to do with their "kingly power," how they ruled and managed their offices.

[skyblue888]

Following P.T. Magan, A.T. Jones was recognized by the Chair:

A.T. Jones: I will call attention to the talk that was referred to a few moments ago, that there has been presented to this Conference, so far as I have discovered, no reason why the present constitution (1901) is not workable, and that is a very important thing. When we are asked to sweep that away without any reference at all, just as though there were no constitution, and this without any word of reference whatever to it, any reasons given as to why it shall be swept away and this put in its place, that is a serious defect, and I have some sort of explanation before we go very far in the discussion of the constitution when it comes.

I believe with the minority report that this proposed constitution is subversive of the principles of organization given to us at the General Conference of 1897 and that of 1901. I believe that it reverses the reformatory steps that were taken, and the principles which were given and adopted as the principles of reorganization in 1897 and 1901, and embodied in the present constitution, and this is stated.

I believe this is being done before that constitution or the organization according to it has ever had any adequate trial, before it has been tested as a General Conference Constitution.

It might be well to call attention to the principles of organization that were given to us in 1897 and 1901. One word that came to us in 1897, which the General Conference accepted, and upon which has become a constitutional principle, was spoken in these words: 'It is not wise to choose one man as president of the General Conference;' and the new constitution (1903) does propose that very thing. Now, that came to us in 1897, and it was accepted by the Conference. The committee, of which I happened to be a member with others, acted upon it, and you know that we brought in a report of that committee, and the Conference adopted it, of having three presidents instead of one." 1903 General Conference Bulletin, p.151.

To be continued

[skyblue888]

I'm not persuaded that God does not want the SDA church to have presidents. It seems to me that the issues had to do with their "kingly power," how they ruled and managed their offices.

My opinion or your opinion is not what we want. Any man who studies the principles of the 1901 Constitution as given by the Lord will see that at that Conference no president was elected. The position was eliminated. The fact that in 1897 some suggested that 3 presidents be chosen instead of one was another human device but it was better than having one man as president as this always leads to kingly power.

A.G. Daniells assumed the position in 1902 and in 1903 he was elected but in order to be elected the principles of the 1901 Constitution as given by the Lord had to be annihilated and they were.

sky