Buying groceries on sabbath

[cardw]

Behaving well and being "good" people are not the high calling of Christians, it is significantly more profound than that. Lot's of "good" people on earth, only Jesus is good enough. Without Him, good or bad, you still have nothing.

Yeah, the religion of "raining on your parade" is all you have. The only thing you have presented that is profound is ignorance.

[ClubV12]

This is a good time to recall the two crowns vision of Sister White...

She was shown a group of Saints reaching for the heavenly crown being taunted by unbelievers who hurled black balls (insults and such) at them. Those that took their eyes off the heavenly crown (Jesus) to look and see where the black balls were coming from had their garments stained by them. But those who kept their eyes fastened on Jesus were left spotless.

The "two" crowns? Another group was reaching for the heavenly crown AND for an earthly crown. This group never acquired the heavenly crown.

[Igakusei]

Right. So don't you dare question your beliefs. Doubt is evil and dangerous and a tool of Satan, and it shouldn't bother you that thousands of other competing religions do this too.

[cardw]

This is a good time to recall the two crowns vision of Sister White...

She was shown a group of Saints reaching for the heavenly crown being taunted by unbelievers who hurled black balls (insults and such) at them. Those that took their eyes off the heavenly crown (Jesus) to look and see where the black balls were coming from had their garments stained by them. But those who kept their eyes fastened on Jesus were left spotless.

The "two" crowns? Another group was reaching for the heavenly crown AND for an earthly crown. This group never acquired the heavenly crown.

You know when you quote things like this you are hurling insults. And then you are surprised that other people don't take this well. Oh what an amazing prophecy!!!

Have you ever thought that maybe the crown you are reaching for isn't really that heavenly?

[ClubV12]

Oh you certainly "question" your beliefs!!!! Study them point by point to be assured of what you believe and have a reason for your faith, independently.

Along the way you establish certain anchor points, no longer open to debate, and thats a good thing! God exists, done, we can talk about it, but nothings going to change, God exists, done. He created the heavens and the earth, done, thats an anchor point. The Sabbath, done, another anchor. Pretty soon you have a solid foundation, rather than, like most, a house of beliefs built on ever shifting sand. Subject to the latest scientific findings and the musings of man, ever searching for a more solid foundation, wandering and wondering in circles.

There is peace to having a few "absolutes" in your life, there is freedom to explore the many wonders of God and not waste time shoring up a sand house that washes away.

[Igakusei]

Oh you certainly "question" your beliefs!!!! Study them point by point to be assured of what you believe and have a reason for your faith, independently.

Should I question my beliefs to be assured of what I believe or should I question my beliefs to discover whether or not they have any merit?

Because I did the latter, and found them to be rather silly.

[cardw]

Oh you certainly "question" your beliefs!!!! Study them point by point to be assured of what you believe and have a reason for your faith, independently.

Along the way you establish certain anchor points, no longer open to debate, and thats a good thing! God exists, done, we can talk about it, but nothings going to change, God exists, done. He created the heavens and the earth, done, thats an anchor point. The Sabbath, done, another anchor. Pretty soon you have a solid foundation, rather than, like most, a house of beliefs built on ever shifting sand. Subject to the latest scientific findings and the musings of man, ever searching for a more solid foundation, wandering and wondering in circles.

There is peace to having a few "absolutes" in your life, there is freedom to explore the many wonders of God and not waste time shoring up a sand house that washes away.

When you establish these "anchor" points you have basically stated that you have god like super mind powers that have covered every known fact about these anchor points so you no longer have to question. So when new information comes up you simply ignore it and call it the musings of man.

To me this is evidence that you have an inability to live in the unknown and admit your limitations as a human being to know everything. This is an example of a profound self inflicted arrogance based on willful ignorance masking as so called virtue.

This is the great danger of all religion. It is the arrogant assumption that we can conclude things about something we can't even see or measure and kill or condemn other people for not agreeing.

And you wonder why thinking people despise religion? At least we have been humbled by the universe and freely admit that we don't know and continue to search and improve our knowledge within the free admission of our limitations.

You have frozen your ignorance in the arrogant assumption that you have the ability to know above every other mind.

[John317]

There is in the human heart a natural affinity for error and evil. Error takes root in the soil of the heart more readily, and grows more vigorously than the precious seeds of truth. Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." The Jews rejected the divine Son of God; but they were ready to accept many an impostor who came in his own name, making empty boasts of his power and authority. And so it is in our day. Men turn away their ears from hearing the truth and are turned unto fables. {RH, May 29, 1888 par. 4}

[Igakusei]

There is in the human heart a natural affinity for error and evil. Error takes root in the soil of the heart more readily, and grows more vigorously than the precious seeds of truth. Jesus said, "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." The Jews rejected the divine Son of God; but they were ready to accept many an impostor who came in his own name, making empty boasts of his power and authority. And so it is in our day. Men turn away their ears from hearing the truth and are turned unto fables. {RH, May 29, 1888 par. 4}

Sounds like creationism.

[phkrause]

Should I question my beliefs to be assured of what I believe or should I question my beliefs to discover whether or not they have any merit?

Because I did the latter, and found them to be rather silly.

Just because you found that silly doesn't mean others find it silly to follow the Bible.

[Guest]

Yes, he was. He didn't know the name, of course, but he kept the Sabbath and he looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. That's the same that we modern SDAs do. He had many of the same beliefs that we have. For instance, he also believe in God's heavenly sanctuary and that we should obey all of the Ten Commandments. He believed, too, that God forgives and washes us clean of our sins.

He also knew the truth concerning the state of the dead. Same as us.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Should I question my beliefs to be assured of what I believe or should I question my beliefs to discover whether or not they have any merit?

Because I did the latter, and found them to be rather silly.

Just because you found that silly doesn't mean others find it silly to follow the Bible.

Amen pk.

[cardw]

There is in the human heart a natural affinity for error and evil. {RH, May 29, 1888 par. 4}

Really. So since the majority of the people in this world are Christians and next largest group is Islam you may have a point here.

[John317]

...I think we just entered the twilight zone. I think we must be in an alternate universe.

No, you came out of the twilight zone and entered the real world. The living God rules in the real world that He created for a purpose. In the twilight zone, there is no God and everything you see around you just happened by chance, kind of like the dictionary or the works of Shakespeare coming together by complete coincidence.

[John317]

Yeah, but it can be hard to fault some people if they've never left the SDA bubble and don't know anything else.

I doubt there's anyone taking part in this discussion that fits your description.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...I think we just entered the twilight zone. I think we must be in an alternate universe.

No, you came out of the twilight zone and entered the real world. The living God rules in the real world that He created for a purpose. In the twilight zone, there is no God and everything you see around you just happened by chance, kind of like the dictionary or the works of Shakespeare coming together by complete coincidence.

Oh hey look, it's Dr. Strawman.

[ClubV12]

People call themselves all kinds of names, Christian, Muslim, Adventists, Methodists, Catholics, Atheists... there just names. A true follower of Christ looks only to Jesus for his standard, while supporting the larger group, the family of God, the church. But following the Lord is a very individual thing, a very personal thing, "membership" in any group will not save you. A deep knowledge of the word won't save you, keeping all the laws won't save you. Only a true connection with the Lord on a very personal, trusting, loving level will suffice.

The sad fact is, of the many who profess to have this, only a fraction actually understand it and have taken ahold of it. Among those who WILL take hold of it, who WILL understand it, are a great multitude of people who are NOT Seventh-day Adventists. Indeed, there may be many who are atheists or agnostics! But in the very final days of earths history, ALL those who are not certain now where they stand, will make a decision, for or against the Lord. They WILL comprise the last group of Gods people on earth and WILL observe all the commandments of God in that last great conflict. They WILL all be, Sabbath keepers and Adventists. At the same time, many who now call themselves Seventh-day Adventists will turn against the church and leave the faith, joining the ranks of the unbelievers.

I hold out hope for the people who HAVE had great light shown on their path, but have become discouraged or disillusioned along the way. Perhaps, you will yet make that decision to stand for the Lord.

[John317]

There is in the human heart a natural affinity for error and evil. {RH, May 29, 1888 par. 4}

Originally Posted By: cardw

Really. So since the majority of the people in this world are Christians and next largest group is Islam you may have a point here.

As someone who appears to have some knowledge of history, do you actually find evidence in the past that the human heart has a natural affinity for truth and goodness?

How about non-Christians and non-Muslims like the Incas and the Aztecs? You ever study their religion? They had many thousands of terrible human sacrifices every year, mostly women and children.

How about the head-hunters of Brazil? Or the people who ate people in Africa? Or how about in the USSR and east Germany, North Korea, or communist Romania, places that attempt to stamp out religion, especially Christianity? Do you find a natural affinity for truth and goodness in those places?

[John317]

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

There is in the human heart a natural affinity for error and evil. {RH, May 29, 1888 par. 4}

Originally Posted By: cardw

Really. So since the majority of the people in this world are Christians and next largest group is Islam you may have a point here.

As someone who appears to have some knowledge of history, do you actually find evidence in the past that the human heart has a natural affinity for truth and goodness?

How about non-Christians and non-Muslims like the Incas and the Aztecs? You ever study their religion? They had many thousands of terrible human sacrifices every year, mostly women and children.

How about the head-hunters of Brazil? Or the people who ate people in Africa? Or how about in the USSR and east Germany, North Korea, or communist Romania, places that attempt to stamp out religion, especially Christianity? Do you find a natural affinity for truth and goodness in those places?

Well I call burning witches and heretics human sacrifice and the Christian church has had it share.

As far as humanity is concerned the evidence shows that we are actually reducing the amount of violence. In the middle ages you had about a 40 percent chance of dying a violent death and guess who was in control. Today that has been reduced to 3 percent. And it is interesting to note that we have the highest rate of unbelief in the known history of this planet and we have a large portion of the world ruled by secular governments.

And if we look at Norway, the most atheistic country in the world, we find the highest standard of living, the highest standard of education, a highly generous nation, and a lower crime rate. And when we note the latest incursion of violence in that country we find a highly religious man willing to kill children to make his point.

So from this point of view it would appear that where ever religion, including Christianity, inserts itself suffering increases.

And all you seem to offer to refute this is quotes and no evidence. That seems more like magical thinking along the order of casting spells to me.

[cardw]

A true follower of Christ looks only to Jesus for his standard..

[Igakusei]

cardw, you're like a breath of fresh air.

I'd like to add that a true connection with the Lord is nothing more than a true connection with your own Ego.

I was always frustrated as a child with my inability to discern between God's thoughts and my own imagination. Now I know why.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Yeah, but it can be hard to fault some people if they've never left the SDA bubble and don't know anything else.

I doubt there's anyone taking part in this discussion that fits your description.

Granted. It applies to most of my friends, though.

[John317]

I left Loma Linda when I was 18 and hitch-hiked to New York City and back. Almost immediately I was drafted into the army during the Vietnam war. For the next 40 years, I was out "in the world." REALLY out in the world.

Now I'm back with God and in the SDA church and loving every minute of it. I only wish I hadn't left. I wasted a lot of years.

I have an uncle who was a bomber pilot in WWII and Korea. He was never an SDA, although he knew something about Bible. (His dad was an SDA minister, writer and evangelist.) Just recently, my uncle wrote me that he is studying the Bible, going to an SDA church, and keeping the Sabbath. He's 92.

Believe me, he knows the world and was never in what you call "the SDA bubble."

[Igakusei]

I left Loma Linda when I was 18 and hitch-hiked to New York City and back. Almost immediately I was drafted into the army during the Vietnam war. For the next 40 years, I was out "in the world." REALLY out in the world.

Now I'm back with God and in the SDA church and loving every minute of it. I only wish I hadn't left. I wasted a lot of years.

I have an uncle who was a bomber pilot in WWII and Korea. He was never an SDA, although he knew something about Bible. (His dad was an SDA minister, writer and evangelist.) Just recently, my uncle wrote me that he is studying the Bible, going to an SDA church, and keeping the Sabbath. He's 92.

Believe me, he knows the world and was never in what you call "the SDA bubble."

From my perspective, when I first allowed myself to listen to the arguments on every side and honestly ask myself the hard questions, it was like getting the first deep breath of fresh air I'd ever tasted after spending decades breathing campfire smoke.

Looking back and observing all the doublethink Christians engage in to explain away things like evolution and Yahweh-the-bully, it just blows my mind.