Jacobs 45 day Trouble

[ClubV12]

A friend mentioned to me the other day that Jacobs Time of Trouble, not the little time of trouble, would last 45 days.

He bases that opinion on Daniel 12:7-12. I've played around with the numbers but I don't see it. Is this idea, 45 days of Jacobs trouble and old idea that is new to me or what?

As to the little time of trouble, I gather a lot of Adentists put that number around a year or so. I don't have a problem with that, could be more, could be less. I think it will be at least "one growing season" because those that can grow their own food will be like Kings and Queens.

[Lysimachus]

This would be under the predilection, of course, that the 1260, 1290, and 1335 of Daniel 12 have a future application. Adventists have generally understood the 45 days between the 1290 and 1335 to occur between 1798 and 1843.

However, the concept that God's people will go through Jacob's trouble (agonizing and pleading with God, and begging God to not let us go until He blesses us, and making sure every sin and evil besetment is put out of our lives) JUST before Jesus comes, is not new at all. It is very Biblical, and the Spirit of Prophecy confirms that we must go through this experience.

[skyblue888]

This would be under the predilection, of course, that the 1260, 1290, and 1335 of Daniel 12 have a future application. Adventists have generally understood the 45 days between the 1290 and 1335 to occur between 1798 and 1843.

However, the concept that God's people will go through Jacob's trouble (agonizing and pleading with God, and begging God to not let us go until He blesses us, and making sure every sin and evil besetment is put out of our lives) JUST before Jesus comes, is not new at all. It is very Biblical, and the Spirit of Prophecy confirms that we must go through this experience.

I totally agree with your first paragraph and we know that after 1844 there will never be a message to God's people that will be based on time, prophetic or literal. (1 S.M.188)

In your second paragraph you stated that during the time of Jacob's trouble the 144,000 will be agonizing with God, and that is true, but it will not be about making sure that every sin is put out of their lives but whether every sin has been confessed and sent beforehand to judgment and overcome because it will be too late by then to put sin out of their lives.

Right?

sky

[Lysimachus]

In your second paragraph you stated that during the time of Jacob's trouble the 144,000 will be agonizing with God, and that is true, but it will not be about making sure that every sin is put out of their lives but whether every sin has been confessed and sent beforehand to judgment and overcome because it will be too late by then to put sin out of their lives.

Right?

sky

I would say that what you just stated gives a more accurate description of this experience. You are right, it will be too late to confess sins. During Jacob's Trouble, we will be agonizing and wondering if there was any sin left in our lives that did not get confessed before probation closed. But the 144,000 will not be able to remember any sin. They are now pure and spotless, and Christ can now come to claim them as His own. :)

[Windsor]

First of all, nothing Biblically happened in 1843 so we can throw that idea out the window. Secondly, Ellen White seems to indicate that the 1335 days are indeed in the future.

[John317]

First of all, nothing Biblically happened in 1843 so we can throw that idea out the window. Secondly, Ellen White seems to indicate that the 1335 days are indeed in the future.

The proclamation of the Second Advent was taking place in 1843, and that was certainly important. It was the year, of course, just before the beginning the Investigative Judgment.

Can you please give a reference to where Ellen White indicates that the 1335 day are in the future?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

In your second paragraph you stated that during the time of Jacob's trouble the 144,000 will be agonizing with God, and that is true, but it will not be about making sure that every sin is put out of their lives but whether every sin has been confessed and sent beforehand to judgment and overcome because it will be too late by then to put sin out of their lives.

Right?

sky

I would say that what you just stated gives a more accurate description of this experience. You are right, it will be too late to confess sins. During Jacob's Trouble, we will be agonizing and wondering if there was any sin left in our lives that did not get confessed before probation closed. But the 144,000 will not be able to remember any sin. They are now pure and spotless, and Christ can now come to claim them as His own.

Right on.

sky :)

[Lysimachus]

First of all, nothing Biblically happened in 1843 so we can throw that idea out the window. Secondly, Ellen White seems to indicate that the 1335 days are indeed in the future.

1843 is when the Midnight Cry began to sound--"the hour of his judgment is come". In that year, this message swept the globe like a title wave. Even in Europe, little Children everywhere began to stand up and preach "the hour of his judgment is come"--of whom many confessed after growing up that it was a Divine power that took hold of their tongue. These things are no coincidence. 1843 was a major year.

Also, Ellen White would have had to be out of her mind to not even intimate that the unanimous position of the pioneers that the 1335 ended in 1843 was wrong. Whether there is a future application to the 1335, that is still debatable. Nonetheless, discussing a future application does not and cannot negate the original historical application to this time frame.

For your information, dual applications are possible. As to whether there is a dual application to this prophecy, I believe at this time it is impossible to say for sure. But we do know there will be no more test based on time, whether such a future time will occur or not.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

First of all, nothing Biblically happened in 1843 so we can throw that idea out the window. Secondly, Ellen White seems to indicate that the 1335 days are indeed in the future.

The proclamation of the Second Advent was taking place in 1843, and that was certainly important. It was the year, of course, just before the beginning the Investigative Judgment.

Can you please give a reference to where Ellen White indicates that the 1335 day are in the future?

I would like to see the reference myself. I am sure it cannot be found since she said that after 1844 there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time, that the third angel's messsage must not be hung on time for time will never be a test again. That the third angel's message need not time to strengthen it and that it will go with mighty power and do its work and will be cut short in righteousness. See 1 S.M.188.

sky

[John317]

So far as I can see, the following is the only statement by Ellen White dealing with the 1335 days of Daniel 12: 12.

Quote:

We told him [brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}

Notice Ellen White says they told Brother H that the 1335 were ended. Some have misunderstood her statement to mean that she is saying Brother H was in error to say that the 1335 were ended.

[John317]

...1843 is when the Midnight Cry began to sound--"the hour of his judgment is come". In that year, this message swept the globe like a title wave. Even in Europe, little Children everywhere began to stand up and preach "the hour of his judgment is come"--of whom many confessed after growing up that it was a Divine power that took hold of their tongue. These things are no coincidence. 1843 was a major year.

Very well put, Lysimachus. There's no question that 1843 was a major year. It alerted the world about the coming "hour of God's judgment."

Your point about the children preaching is really important. It helps to show that the message was of God. Those children preached just like adults. They had to preach because the laws in some of those countries prohited the adults from doing it.

[Lysimachus]

Very well put, Lysimachus. There's no question that 1843 was a major year. It alerted the world about the coming "hour of God's judgment."

Your point about the children preaching is really important. It helps to show that the message was of God. Those children preached just like adults. They had to preach because the laws in some of those countries prohited the adults from doing it.

Why thanks Isaiah56. And welcome to the board! I'm fairly new myself, but I've simply posted a lot in the last couple months. Your posts thus far reveal yourself to be a studied man. We need more champions like yourself. :)

[ClubV12]

There is no question the entire 2,300 year prophecy ended in 1844. Considering any part of it as ALSO applying to our modern generation is not an attempt to "set a date" for anything or calculate Christs coming or any such other foolishness. The 45 day length of the final time of trouble (Jacobs time) is calculated from the 1335-1290=45. Lets not get to side tracked with all the various and endless theories that suggest the 2,300 has yet to be fulfilled. That is wrong, done, many threads deal with it, some don't believe it, leave them be. Moving on and back to topic...

Agreed:

"During Jacob's Trouble, we will be agonizing and wondering if there was any sin left in our lives that did not get confessed before probation closed. But the 144,000 will not be able to remember any sin."

It has been suggested this time frame is 45 days in length, I'm still looking into the reasoning for the 45 day length. If it looks like something is there, I'll lay it out in this thread for consideration.

Interesting that the 144,000 number is raised once again. I see the 144,000 as the leaders, teachers, preachers to the "great multitude" that came into the "church" during the little time of trouble. ALONG WITH the 144K many of this great multitude also goes through Jacobs time. If so, there are considerably more than 144K souls alive when Christ actually returns.

[Lysimachus]

Quote:

Lets not get to side tracked with all the various and endless theories that suggest the 2,300 has yet to be fulfilled.

I'm confused ClubV12. Who here is suggesting such a thing? Certainly not I. I agree there is no future application to the 2300.

[Windsor]

So far as I can see, the following is the only statement by Ellen White dealing with the 1335 days of Daniel 12: 12.

Quote:

We told him [brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}

Notice Ellen White says they told Brother H that the 1335 were ended. Some have misunderstood her statement to mean that she is saying Brother H was in error to say that the 1335 were ended.

It depends upon how you read that. I read it as the 1335 days being in the past was an example of one of his errors. If one reads it as you say, I sure think somewhere in her writings she would elucidate what exactly the beginning and end dates.

Secondly, William Miller began preaching long before 1843 that the end of the 2300 days was imminent. That a false date was set earlier in the year for the fall of that year doesn't really seem to be a blessing to any of the listeners. Recall that the Bible text says "Blessed is he who waits and comes to the 1335 days." I don't see any blessing in a false year or being taught about a false year.

I would like to see the documentation where a whole host of early pioneers found that the year 1843 was so significant in spite of it being a completely false year.

[Lysimachus]

It depends upon how you read that. I read it as the 1335 days being in the past was an example of one of his errors. If one reads it as you say, I sure think somewhere in her writings she would elucidate what exactly the beginning and end dates.

It would seem awfully strange for Ellen White to say that. Then why is she excluding this man as the one with this error, when ALL the pioneers, including Uriah Smith, James White, and J.N. Andrews held that the 1335 were past? Why would she even mention it and not implicate this error as one adhered to by all the leaders of the Church? Why throw that in as "one of the errors" when that would be an "error" held by the Church at large? It just does not make sense for her to be stating the 1335 being in the past is one of the errors, rather, in correcting this man's errors, she is mentioning that the 1335 are past and he is not. This is how it would make most sense to me anyway.

[ClubV12]

Lysimachus, I'm not sure where Windsor is coming from in regards to the 2,300 year prophecy.

Windsor, do you accept the Adventist view on the 2,300 year prophecy as taught by the church? It ended in 1844, there is no dispute on that fact in this thread.

THIS thread is attempting to explore any aspects of that prophecy which may apply to FUTURE events, the "dual fulfillment" idea.

We will never get there if we have to keep dealing with fundamental issues concerning the original fulfillment.

[ClubV12]

The key chapter is Daniel 12.

The Holy people are shattered, or scattered, depending on your version, verse 7.

Who are the Holy people, in a future sense? The people who are purified, made white and tried. Could this be ALSO referring to the 144,000 at the time of the end?

Daniel 12:11 The "daily". Could that be the Sunday law taking away the Sabbath? Again, in a FUTURE or MODERN TIMES (today) sense.

[Windsor]

Lysimachus, I'm not sure where Windsor is coming from in regards to the 2,300 year prophecy.

Windsor, do you accept the Adventist view on the 2,300 year prophecy as taught by the church? It ended in 1844, there is no dispute on that fact in this thread.

THIS thread is attempting to explore any aspects of that prophecy which may apply to FUTURE events, the "dual fulfillment" idea.

We will never get there if we have to keep dealing with fundamental issues concerning the original fulfillment.

Absolutely I accept that the 2300 days ended in 1844. I'd probably believe the 1336 days were in the past because that would fit nicely with 1844. The 1335 days point to 1843 which I don't see as being particularly significant.

[Lysimachus]

Absolutely I accept that the 2300 days ended in 1844. I'd probably believe the 1336 days were in the past because that would fit nicely with 1844. The 1335 days point to 1843 which I don't see as being particularly significant.

You might want to consider purchasing Heidi Heik's new book "AD 1798 1843 Source Book". He exegetically reveals the vast Biblical and historical significance of the 1843 date. I recommend getting all 3 books if you can.

[John317]

Quote:

We told him [brother H] of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended, and numerous [other] errors of his.--Letter 28, 1850, pp. 1-3 (To "The Church in Brother Hastings' House," November 7, 1850.) {5MR 203.2}

Notice Ellen White says they told Brother H that the 1335 were ended. Some have misunderstood her statement to mean that she is saying Brother H was in error to say that the 1335 were ended.

Originally Posted By: Windsor

It depends upon how you read that. I read it as the 1335 days being in the past was an example of one of his errors. If one reads it as you say, I sure think somewhere in her writings she would elucidate what exactly the beginning and end dates.

That would make no sense, though, since all the other pioneers believed the 1335 days were ended, and Ellen White never implied that they were wrong. Therefore she was saying this Brother H was in error because he was saying the 1335 days were yet future. There's nothing in all her writings that indicates she believed the 1335 days were still to be fulfilled.

She is saying, "We told him... that the 1335 days were ended..."

In light of what the Pioneers believed, she wouldn't have said, "WE told him the 1335 days were NOT ended." There's no record of the Pioneers holding such a belief.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

Absolutely I accept that the 2300 days ended in 1844. I'd probably believe the 1336 days were in the past because that would fit nicely with 1844. The 1335 days point to 1843 which I don't see as being particularly significant.

You might want to consider purchasing Heidi Heik's new book "AD 1798 1843 Source Book". He exegetically reveals the vast Biblical and historical significance of the 1843 date. I recommend getting all 3 books if you can.

It is interesting that the 1335 days takes us to 1843 the original year they mentioned for the end of the 2300 days

[ClubV12]

So,,, now that we got that cleared up, and the 2,300 year prophecy in the past is solid.

What parts might reapply to the future? As my long time SDA friend suggested, 45 days is the length of Jacobs Trouble. Anybody ever heard of that? He comes to that conclusion from Daniel 12 applying it in a future sense. He, like most all SDA's, doesn't have a problem with William Millers charts and such as all that applies in the past.

Sorry Windsor to be abrupt, but we have SO many people with SO many views on the 2,300 years, had to be sure we were on the same page. I know exactly how we got from 1843 to 1844, but it's not relevant to this discussion.

[12tribes]

So,,, now that we got that cleared up, and the 2,300 year prophecy in the past is solid.

What parts might reapply to the future? As my long time SDA friend suggested, 45 days is the length of Jacobs Trouble. Anybody ever heard of that? He comes to that conclusion from Daniel 12 applying it in a future sense. He, like most all SDA's, doesn't have a problem with William Millers charts and such as all that applies in the past.

Sorry Windsor to be abrupt, but we have SO many people with SO many views on the 2,300 years, had to be sure we were on the same page. I know exactly how we got from 1843 to 1844, but it's not relevant to this discussion.

[ClubV12]

12Tribes says,

"Time prophecies are not reapplied in the future."

I tend to agree with that statement, but how do we know this for sure? There are a number of well grounded folks with considerably more bible study and years in the faith than I that would disagree with that statement. Or, "tend" to disagree. leaving the door open for the possibility.

Perhaps THAT is the question! ARE some aspects of prophecy applicable in a dual application, any prophecy? Many seem to think so... IF so, is the 2,300 year prophecy the ONLY one we consider as possibly applicable to our modern times?

Concerning the 45 day Jacobs time of trouble concept. Is such an application of this prophecy "proof" positive of an error or misapplication of prophecy? It sounds like NOBODY has even heard of this, and that is a big red warning flag. Surely somebody else must share the view of a 45 day time of trouble? IF so, who? Where can I find out more about it?