Jacobs 45 day Trouble

[skyblue888]

Club, the Lord has already settled the matter. Prophecies may have a dual application but not in regard to time setting, not after 1844 anyway for after that time we are told that there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. (1 S.M.188,189)

The time of Jacob's trouble is from the close of probation until the fifth plague when the saints shall be delivered. It is not revealed how long it will take for these plagues to fall but we know it is going to be a short time but there is no need to speculate about the exact duration. It is not revealed.

sky

[ClubV12]

Hmmmm, I've seen before we don't exactly see eye to eye on the fifth plague, but thats a different issue...

Would it be safe to say, Sky, in your opinion, that someone who sets an exact time (45 days) for Jacobs trouble is mistaken, or even worse than mistaken?

Bear in mind no one setting an exact date for when it begins, just how long it will last.

[skyblue888]

Yes but those who suggest the 45 day lapse based that on the time prophecies of Daniel 12 and this we cannot do because the Lord clearly told us that after 1844 there are no more time prophecies.

I don't have a personal opinion on these things.

The book The Great Controversy makes it clear that at the time of the fifth plague the people of God will be delivered. It is not an opinion of mine.

sky

[ClubV12]

I read the same book (GC)! Came to a different conclusion...

Now back to "setting time" after 1844, of course I agree with that as I'm sure most SDA's would. My friend says "time setting" is establishing a specific date, using prophecy. But setting a time on how long something will last isn't "time setting" as Sister White talks about it. I have no position on this one way or the other right now, I'm just learing to understand and deal with the issues my friend brings up.

[skyblue888]

Club, one thing I can say is that these people, most if not all, take the National Sunday Law as their point of reference and from there they make their calculations. Accordingly the loud cry would last three and a half literal years. Therefore not only could they know when the loud cry would end but they would also know when probation would end, three and a half years after the Sunday Law had been passed.

There are 30 days between the 1260 days and the 1290 days and there are 45 days between the 1290 days and the 1335 days.

The 1260, 1290, and 1335 all having the same point of reference, the setting up of the image of the beast by the enactment of the Sunday Law.

What happens during the 30 days following the close of probation to fulfil the 1290 days?

The close of probation is the starting point for the time of Jacob's trouble and also for the great time of truble for the wicked.

How did they come up with 45 days being the time of Jacob's trouble after the 30 days following the close of probation?

sky

[ClubV12]

Good questions Sky, questions I will study and be prepared to present to my friend in a humble way. A man I have much respect for, but am concerned he may be in some error. As he is a very eductated and well respected person in the church his whole life, I feel a little intimidated to even say anything!

Perhaps it is not my place to say anything on the matter...

He does indeed begin the count at the Sunday law. The USA National Sunday law, not the world wide Sunday law.

[skyblue888]

I read the same book (GC)! Came to a different conclusion...

Club

_____________________

I don't know what your conclusion is but there is no need to come to a different conclusion especially when it is made perfectly clear what takes place at that time.

In the chapter "God's People Delivered," Mrs. White describes the events taking place at the time of the fifth plague as evil men are about to slay God's people:

"With shouts of triumph and imprecation, throngs of evil men are about to rush upon their prey, when, lo, a dense blackness, deeper than the darkness of the night, falls upon the earth. (This is the fifth plague which is universal) Then a rainbow shining with the glory from the throne of God, spans the heavens and seems to encircle each praying company. Their mocking cries die away. The objects of their murderous rage are forgotten. With fearful foreboding they gaze upon the symbol of God's covenant and long to be shielded from its overpowering brightness. By the people of God a voice, clear and melodious, is heard, saying, 'Look up,' and lifting their eyes to the heavens, they behold the bow of promise."

Then a few lines down we read, "It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people. The sun appears, shining in its strength. Signs and wonders follow in quick succession. The wicked look with terror and amazement upon the scene, while the righteous behold with solemn joy the tokens of their deliverance." The Great Controversy, p.636.

As all can see for themselves, this "midnight" is the midnight darkness of the fifth plague which is universal. It is at this time that the saints are delivered and the wicked are filled with fury.

On page 656 Mrs White describes their rage:

"The multitudes are filled with fury. 'We are lost!' they cry, ' and you are the cause of our ruin;' and they turn upon the false shepherds. The very ones that once admired them most will pronounce the most dreadful curses upon them. The very hands that once crowned them with laurels will be raised for their destruction. The swords which were to slay God's people are now emplowed to destroy their enemies. Everywhere there is bloodshed."

This is the sixth plague, the drying up of the waters whose symbolic name is Euphrates. The wicked no longer support Babylon the Great and they turn upon her with the fury of demons. There are none to help her. (Dan.11:45) This is followed by the seventh last plague, the great earthquake and the hail, the resurrection and the second coming of Christ.

sky

[ClubV12]

The details of "deliverance", the sequence of events, the definitions of terms and timing could be debated. But it's not worth getting into to deeply.

So, has ANYBODY ever heard of the idea that the final time of trouble will last 45 days? ANYBODY???

[12tribes]

12Tribes says,

"Time prophecies are not reapplied in the future."

I tend to agree with that statement, but how do we know this for sure? There are a number of well grounded folks with considerably more bible study and years in the faith than I that would disagree with that statement. Or, "tend" to disagree. leaving the door open for the possibility.

Perhaps THAT is the question! ARE some aspects of prophecy applicable in a dual application, any prophecy? Many seem to think so... IF so, is the 2,300 year prophecy the ONLY one we consider as possibly applicable to our modern times?

Concerning the 45 day Jacobs time of trouble concept. Is such an application of this prophecy "proof" positive of an error or misapplication of prophecy? It sounds like NOBODY has even heard of this, and that is a big red warning flag. Surely somebody else must share the view of a 45 day time of trouble? IF so, who? Where can I find out more about it?

There is no time prophecies after 1844. Time is not mentioned in the 2nd beast in Revelation 13 only the 1st beast, it is the system that is copied not the time. The 1260 days and 42 months mentioned in Revelation 12 & 13 which are the same time periods in prophetic time are the same length in time but, in literal time are not the same length.

The time of trouble starts when probation closes

Daniel 12:1

(1) And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The plagues begin to fall when probation falls

Revelation 15:7-8

(7) And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

(8) And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

The plagues fall in 1 day

Revelation 18:8

(8) Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Where do they get 45 days from? From there own interpretation

[ClubV12]

I think we do have to recognize there are two or more "times of trouble". Jacobs time of trouble begins after probation closes, but there is a lot of "trouble" we will have to deal with before the plagues begin.

The Sunday will be agitated and life will become increasingly harder for Sabbath keepers over a period of time. Leading up to the close of probation for mankind.

During this "early phase" many will be layed to rest, many martyred, many put in jail, the suffering will be very real. All though we will be in groups of somekind, each of us will be tested separately, individually, no earthly support. Some will die as a result.

I don't know that it will be immediately clear, if ever, when probation closes and the plagues can begin. Of course AFTER probation closes there will no more matyrs, but all we will know is that yesterday some Saints were killed. Today it may be us. We will have to trust in God, even though our life is secure at that time.

By the time of the 5th plague, when death has not been possible through the first four, what is it we are "delivered" from? Mental anguish, not necessarily physical anguish.