Kevorkian procedure

[Gerr]

Would a person who decides to go through the Kevorkian procedure because of intractable pain lose their salvation? Is that a sign of a lack of faith?

[ClubV12]

My mother, in her old age, was taking dialysis. At some point, she just got tired of all the fuss and trouble. Wheel chair, into the special van, someone else to drive her, wait for the procedure, all that and much more.

She just stopped all the various treatments, and passed away at home shortly there after.

Same thing?

[Jeannieb43]

No. IMO, the "Kevorkian procedure" is euthanasia. But your mother's actions merely illustrated her decision to retain control over her own body, and to let the disease continue unchecked by treatment which was probably more painful than the illness itself.

Now, as to whether or not either of these actions results in a person losing out on heaven -- I'm not in a position to know. I believe only God knows the heart. I feel sure there will be persons in heaven who may have died prematurely on this earth.

[skyblue888]

Right.

Would I take six or 12 different drugs to keep me alive or rest in the merits of Christ for God's will to be done?

[CoAspen]

Pain and Faith are two different things, obviously, so what does choseing to die have to do with salvation? Under the circumstances you describe, I don't believe so. I find it difficult to believe God is so cruel as to demand the patient live on in pain and misery.

(2-cnts)

[Tom Wetmore]

And I believe God is far more understanding of some whose humanly incurable emotional pain also causes them to take that leap of faith into the abyss.

God is judge. I am not. We should be thankful.

[skyblue888]

let us not get carried away

suicide on the ground of incontrolable emotional pain is another story

[ClubV12]

Sister White commented on a man having visions. The poor fellow, whom she had great mercy for, was dieing. He claimed to have visions and specificed a date the Lord would come. His exhortations were marvelous, sincere and based on bible text (misinterpreted), some were swayed by his teaching. Sister White really dreaded having to deal with this while the guy was on his death bead. But finally she had to to, for the sake of others. The visions, she said, were a result of the morphine he was receiving for his pain. His setting a date for the Lords return was obvious error.

Remember David seeing the old men and how folks can become in their old age? Bitter, hurtful, spiteful. He saw that and begged the Lord not to remove His presence from him in his old age. A very touching plea for help, protect me from myself.

[John317]

Would a person who decides to go through the Kevorkian procedure because of intractable pain lose their salvation? Is that a sign of a lack of faith?

We have to leave that with God, of course, but I don't believe we should jump to the conclusion that all who commit suicide will lose their salvation. I would think that a lot depends on the circumstances and on the state of the person's mind.

People aren't saved or lost on account of one good deed or one bad deed, but it is based on the trend of a person's life and whether they have true faith in Christ.

Let's suppose that a person has lived most of their life being loyal to God and loving Jesus, and then when they are old, they contract a terribly painful disease. They end up hanging themselves. The bottom line is that we need to realize that God will do what is right by that person, and we have to leave it with Him; but I certainly wouldn't suggest to a family member--or to anyone else-- that this poor old man lost his salvation.

If we were going by human reasoning alone, I think most of us would conclude that Samson was a pretty bad guy who committed suicide and probably wouldn't be saved. But we'd be completely wrong.

[ClubV12]

Samson, "death bed conversion", pretty rare, but possible...

[Gail]

"It's a [censored] shoot," as my husband says. IOW, you never know how it's all gonna turn out. A doctor could be playing Saviour by extending a life, or he could also be playing God by extending the death process.

But are we not all stewards of the life God has given us? The only thing preventing a self-inflicted euthanasia is the means to do it (strength or mobility or whatever).

Why should we conjecture about something that's in God's jurisdiction (the issue of salvation)? Once the person is deceased the decision is complete anyway.

[Gail]

Maybe mercy runs deeper than the extension of life. WDYT?

[Tallmark]

Take care of your body now and you won't have to go through this mess. Eat plant strong! It's funny to me how many SDAs call themselves vegetarians and "believe" EGW, yet consume dairy like there's no tomorrow. I say a documentary recently that talked about the dangers of consuming animal products (meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc.). http://forksoverknives.com/ Someone once told me that the health message was taken from our church and given to the world. I believe that. Who cares about health any more until it's gone? Not many.

[Windsor]

You are way off topic there. Even those who live the healthiest of lives, can by a stroke of bad luck end up with a painful terminal disease.

[Dr. Waite]

Would a person who decides to go through the Kevorkian procedure because of intractable pain lose their salvation? Is that a sign of a lack of faith?

King Saul (the one who visited the witch) was mortally wounded in battle and told his sword bearer to run him through and through. See 1 Chronicles 10:4

Was Saul placed in the faith chapter hall of fame?

Judas (Christ's disciple) after he betrayed the Lord went out an hung himself (mortally wounded with mental illness). Is He in the faith chapter hall of fame?

If a person is wounded in the battle of life with the Devil and is terminally ill, would it be acceptable to the LORD that he asks his armour bearer to run him through and through (ask for the Kevorkian procedure)?

[Gerr]

Did he lose his soul because he fell on his sword? I think you are forgetting the fact that King Saul was ALREADY separated from God and already a lost man BEFORE his last battle. And how about Samson? He's in the Hall of Faith.

[gretta]

One of my favorite quotes is from Job, where he declares: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust Him" (13:15).

If I were in a painful, terminal situation, it is my hope that I would cling to God tighter than ever and be able to fully submit myself to his will. I hope that I would reflect God's love and the presence of the Comforter to those around me as I experience peace and joy at the prospect of my journey here coming to an end. I hope that as my body is convulsed with pain, my mind would be drawn to Jesus and I would thank him for his sufferings.

I expect to ask for a lot of painkillers.

I pray that I would not take my life into my own hands.

I believe that Jesus washes away all my sins, and I know that when I fall short, he uses his righteousness to make up the difference. Not commiting suicide in such a situation would not make me any more righteous. Whatever my situation or actions I must have faith in Him.

[Dr. Waite]

Did he lose his soul because he fell on his sword? I think you are forgetting the fact that King Saul was ALREADY separated from God and already a lost man BEFORE his last battle. And how about Samson? He's in the Hall of Faith.

I believe that suicide is what people choose to do after they have given themselves over to the hand of Satan. Intentions to commit suicide with a plan is a mental illness.

Jesus Christ the master physician can heal any illness including mental illness.

[Stan]

Too often, I have seen those we profess to love, go through agony and a personal hell to keep them alive an few days or few weeks, and for what purpose? So we can be selfless as we do not want to lose them?

I have wondered if we treated our animals that way would they put us in jail for abuse?

[Windsor]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Did he lose his soul because he fell on his sword? I think you are forgetting the fact that King Saul was ALREADY separated from God and already a lost man BEFORE his last battle. And how about Samson? He's in the Hall of Faith.

I believe that suicide is what people choose to do after they have given themselves over to the hand of Satan. Intentions to commit suicide with a plan is a mental illness.

Jesus Christ the master physician can heal any illness including mental illness.

He can heal any illness but millions and millions of people go down to the grave praying for healing of other types of illness, healing that never comes. You certainly wouldn't say that the reason they weren't healed is because they gave themselves over to Satan. God frequently chooses not to heal mental illness as well.

[aldona]

Take care of your body now and you won't have to go through this mess. Eat plant strong! It's funny to me how many SDAs call themselves vegetarians and "believe" EGW, yet consume dairy like there's no tomorrow. I say a documentary recently that talked about the dangers of consuming animal products (meat, fish, dairy, eggs, etc.). http://forksoverknives.com/ Someone once told me that the health message was taken from our church and given to the world. I believe that. Who cares about health any more until it's gone? Not many.

The Adventist lifestyle will certainly lengthen your life and improve its quality, but unless Jesus comes within our lifetimes we all have to die of something eventually.

I had a patient a few years ago - not Adventist, but she was a Christian with a very deep and real faith, and she would have made a great Adventist. She was a lifelong vegetarian, never smoked or drank alcohol, never used any narcotic drugs, always insisted on the best organic food for herself (and her 9 children who were all born by home birth), lived in the country surrounded by the beauties of nature, was active and exercise regularly. And yet she died a painful death from cancer of the pancreas at the age of only 41.

There are many things on this fallen planet that can cause disease and suffering - toxic chemicals in the air and water, radiation, genetics (our DNA becomes more imperfect and damaged with each generation that separates us from Adam and Eve), not to mention accidents and violence.

Sometimes it is not our own sin, but that of others, which shortens people's life span (those who smoke in the presence of their innocent children, drive while drunk, commit violence or thoughtlessly dump poisons into the water supply are hardly obeying the command to "love their neighbor as themselves".)

When our fellow believers suffer, we should take care not to add to their pain by "blaming the victim" and implying that they must have had some lapse in their diet & lifestyle for this to come upon them. (I seem to recall a Bible account featuring Jesus, some pharisees and a blind man.)

AJ

[Gail]

Quote:

He can heal any illness but millions and millions of people go down to the grave praying for healing of other types of illness, healing that never comes. You certainly wouldn't say that the reason they weren't healed is because they gave themselves over to Satan. God frequently chooses not to heal mental illness as well.

First of all, I'd like to repeat my "mantra" that Nothing fazes God. Death in his eyes is not the devastation that it is to us. Jesus holds the keys to death and hell. We tend to make this life all there is.

I wonder, though, if God chooses so often not to heal for our benefit, those who claim His name. He might be providing us opportunity to be His hands of mercy and more involved with the things of eternity. It's one of the biggest lessons for us to learn, to selflessly give of ourselves to provide uplifting words and encouragement to those who are courageously battling.

I remember reading Mrs. White's words about making the elderly's path to the grave a happy one (Ministry of Healing?) I can't remember the exact passage but the principle has rooted itself in my brain. I look at this as angels' work, of being a ministering spirit, but also as our own work.

[Gail]

Quote:

When our fellow believers suffer, we should take care not to add to their pain by "blaming the victim" and implying that they must have had some lapse in their diet & lifestyle for this to come upon them. (I seem to recall a Bible account featuring Jesus, some pharisees and a blind man.)

Amen, Aldona! What is the sense of bringing the possible reasons for the malady after the person's already come down with it? I, too, don't see that as the time to make them pack their bags for a guilt trip. They need to deal with what they have presently, and stress and worry cannot make the process any easier.

By all means, take advantage of the period when prevention will work. If it doesn't (and sometimes it doesn't, as Aldona as pointed out) then we have a job to do, and that is meeting the sufferer where they are.

[CoAspen]

I must say Gail, your picture choice fits you well.

It is shown by the words you use.

Comforting......

[Gerr]

First of all, I'd like to repeat my "mantra" that Nothing fazes God. Death in his eyes is not the devastation that it is to us. Jesus holds the keys to death and hell. We tend to make this life all there is.

If death is no big thing to Him, why then does He not strike a sufferer dead when they pray for death instead of leaving them in their suffering?

Quote:

I wonder, though, if God chooses so often not to heal for our benefit, those who claim His name. He might be providing us opportunity to be His hands of mercy and more involved with the things of eternity. It's one of the biggest lessons for us to learn, to selflessly give of ourselves to provide uplifting words and encouragement to those who are courageously battling.

How effective is your witness that God answers prayer when He doesn't answer yours?