What Bible predictions have come true?

[Windsor]

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Quote:John317

>>The last Edomite died sometime about 70 AD.<<

Quote:jasd

...and we know that how?

>>From reseaching.

What is the last mention in history of the Edomites? Do you know of any after the Jewish Wars?

The wikipedia:<<

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Antipater the Idumaean, the progenitor of the Herodian Dynasty that ruled Judea after the Roman conquest, was of Edomite origin. Under Herod the Great Idumaea was ruled for him by a series of governors, among whom were his brother Joseph ben Antipater and his brother-in-law Costobarus. Immediately before the siege of Jerusalem by Titus, 20,000 Idumaeans, under the leadership of John, Simeon, Phinehas, and Jacob, appeared before Jerusalem to fight on behalf of the Zealots who were besieged in the Temple.[34] See Zealot Temple Siege for more information. After the Jewish Wars the Idumaean people are no longer mentioned in history, though the geographical region of "Idumea" is still referred to at the time of St. Jerome.

“...in the days of John Hyrcanus (end of the second century B.C.E.) … the [non-Israelite] Edomites became a section of the Jewish people. "EDOM," Encyclopaedia Judaica (Jerusalem, Israel: Encyclopaedia Judaica Company, 1971) Vol. 6, p. 378

They [the non-Israelite Edomites] were then incorporated with the Jewish nation…. "EDOM, IDUMEA," The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York & London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1904) Vol. V, p. 41

…from then on they [the non-Israelite Edomites] constituted a part of the Jewish people, Herod [King of Judea] being one of their descendants. "EDOM (Idumea)," The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1977) p. 589

…they [the Edomites] were hereafter no other than [non-Israelite] Jews. Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews (Grand Rapids, MI: Dregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, Chapter IX, Verse 1, p. 279”

“Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew" or to call a contemporary Jew an "Israelite" or a "Hebrew." "IDENTITY CRISIS," The Jewish Almanac, compiled and edited by Richard Siegel and Carl Rheins (New York, NY: Bantam Books, 1980) p. 3

(bolded and underlined added)

Edom had, even before the Common Era, incorporated/assimilated with/into the Jews – so, where one finds today’s Jews – one finds Edom.

The breach between the sons of Isaac, Esau (father of the Edomites) and Jacob (Israel) was restored at last. Both should always have been one people and one religion.

[jasd]

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Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate.

>>God predestined Salvation be offered to every person who ever lived...<<

Indeed; however, you are seemingly saying that that ‘predestination’ is a one-time deal.

>>...This is why Scripture says Christ took it to those who had long ago "died".<<

Yes, in that Gd had destroyed them for lacking a ‘pure’ bloodline – both the Natoral and the Moral “law” mattered naught re their selves vis-à-vis ‘salvation’.

>>...In your own way if you accept the Book of Romans you are obviously not a Jew.<<

I accept more than Romans or the Protestant Bible – and there are ‘Jews’ and there are Jews. My family comprises, in part, Jews.

>>Perhaps some "sacred name group"?<<

Is Absolutionist a “sacred name”?

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Coupla things: Writ implies/indicates that that not only was Salvation provided – but that it also – will be provided for – “all” humanity.

Color that ‘Universalism’.

>>That's what I thought - you are a universalist...<<

Not so definite, there. I said I tend that direction...

>>...At some point, at the very end there are only two classes of people.<<

At the very, very end – there is only one “class” of people who matter.

>>...The sheep & the goats / the goats don't have anything good to look forward to either.<<

That is at a judgment – and, Writ signifies Jesus Christ as a goat.

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Evidently, not in these past nor in this present age(s); however, what of the age(s) to come? After all, how can man choose/accept when he is either – oblivious or unknowledgeable of ‘salvation’?—and when his time during this sojourn is, admittedly, but “a breath; his days are like a fleeting shadow”?

>>According to Sacred Scripture God already has a contingency for that jasd...

...In the end it boils down to IF the individual followed Natoral or Moral law.<<

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Sheesh!—I’m scrued.... and so are you, and you, and you, ... for we have all sinned willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth.

Having “sinned willfully” since receiving the knowledge of truth – I am definitely scrued – except that Gd is required to forgive me as I forgive (Matt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you) – and/or there is one or more provisional plans to be inacted.

I say, “Hear! Hear!” – give life a chance!

>>...If they did then the Merits of Christ will be applied to them - if not they stand convicted.<<

Regardless, the status of the sinner – his/her belief in Jesus Christ covers him/her – where, even the prostitute (“convicted” in her sins – yet ‘covered’) will go in before even many of the holy saints...

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Gd either loves or does not love the individual man – if unconditionally so – then He must provide him the decent interval to make a choice – based upon Gd’s due diligence and man’s full cognizance.

>>You've heard the saying if you love something let it "free"...

...Well, that's exactly what God did when He created humanity.

...God could have easily created a full functional biological robot but He didn't.

...He wanted humanity to love Him freely because they wanted to.

We, flawed humans, love our children, but that love constrains us from giving our children freedom. I say, that given our very, very, brief time on earth - a breath, a fleeting shadow...

we, upon our death, are still but children - wicked children, but children nonetheless.

[jasd]

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It is not happening presently.

>>That, is why Jesus said "few will find it" & the road to hell is wide and smooth....

...While the path of God is difficult.

...That's why, in the end of days it's a REMNANT spoken of that's saved.<<

The salvation of a REMNANT, ipso facto, creates a great nullity?—wherein all else is cast aside – forever?

I see the end of the book of Revelation presaging an interTestamental period; as was the end of the book of Malachi.

>>A remnant is a small fraction off the MAIN garment - that's the reality of the situation....<<

So, you are suggesting that Gd discards the REST of the garment?—however unreal that may seem?

>>...That reality existed 3000 years prior to the Incarnation of God The Son.<<

What happened 3000 years before the “Incarnation of Gd the Son”?

>>...And it will certainly exist 3000 years from now IF the world lasts that long.<<

The mind of man is not that of Gd’s.

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Indeed, not in their limited time and under their circumstances; however, does it all end there?

>>After death comes pain or pleasure - you are judged and for the person who died....

...That is THEIR Second Coming of Christ because they will stand before Him right then and there.<<

But you proffer the idea that Jesus Christ went, by/in the Spirit – to the spirits of those who lived before the flood – and preached to them... To what purpose? They died in their sins, did they not?

>>One thing is for sure - your eternal fate is determined at your point of death...

...You are either saved or you are not.<<

Indeed, however, is there no further remedy for those “not saved”?

Writ tells us that Jesus Christ made full Atonement at the cross:

Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, ...

Yet, there remains the three antiTypes of the Autumnal Feasts yet to find their Typical fulfillment – primary among them is the Day of Atonement.

What’s with THAT!

Jesus Christ did His part at the Pasch. So, from whence the Atoning upon the Typical Day of Atonement?

Remember the above proffered text:

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Well, consider the following text relative to Hebrews 10:26...

1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Don’t lose the significance of “spiritual” Rock. That rock signified Christ and was struck by Moses THREE TIMES! Gd had instructed Moses to strike the rock once upon the first occasion to bring forth water. He was only to speak to the rock the second time, but instead – he struck it TWICE!

The typology required the rock to signify Jesus Christ’s being struck upon the Pasch at the crucifixion for the Atonement of man. Jesus Christ was indeed struck ONCE upon the cross. One needs ask, should the typology obtain – who then must be struck yet twice more?—and will there be Atonement in those strikings?

Gd is not a simple man.

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To suggest that Gd’s hand is so short that He cannot save – is appalling.

>>It's not that God can't it's that Scripture says God WON'T force someone to accept Him as God...

...Honestly, God does not operate like that.<<

But Gd does force man. Over and over in text we read that Gd will, and does.

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Not a Jew, everything but... Picked that up from the Jews and from OT Writ, which is consonantal.

>>Fair enough, back in my CCR days I had some run-in's with Jews for Judaism and they wrote like that...

...Do you believe Jesus is God in the identical way the Father & Holy Spirit is God?<<

No, definitely not. The entirety of the Redemption story goes to that fact.

[jasd]

RE universalism:

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Tending there...

>>That notion comes from Gnostic teachings which the Apostles and those that followed them ( ECF's ) warned Christains to avoid - it is heresy.<<

One cannot rely upon everything the ECFs subscribed-to. Some of their beliefs seemed to have derived from inhaling the essence of very powerful herbs...

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Justin Martyr, C 160, E), 1.239

You may have fallen in with some [Gnostics] who are called Christians. However, they do not admit this [intermediate state], [ed.jasd]

Yet, should we believe that Jesus Christ was not given to whole cloth prevarications...

Matt 5:25 ... and thou be cast into prison.

Matt 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Some see the doctrine of ‘purgatory’ herein. (and what was the ‘intermediate state’ you proffered re those spirits who dwelt before the flood?)

>>As well as a host of Scriptures which demonstrate the concept to be false.<<

Scriptures are often exposited incorrectly – for example: are those who’ve rejected Jesus Christ’s covering – consumed in the lake of fire or cast into outer darkness?

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Heresy is in the eye of the beholder – which may describe some, if not all, of your beliefs, I might add.

>>Look, I'll give it to you that it's a nice thought - but it's a false dangerous thought...

...Sort of like the idea that once someone enters hell they become as if they never existed in the first place.

[jasd]

Okay, so not everyone can/will countenance or embrace a limited outline of a numinous Narrative Theory re Universalism. Too reticent and buried by dogmatology which teaches an insufficiency of love, grace, and mercy of an agape Gd?

Then, how about a solid Biblical text by St Paul?

1 Tim 4:10 ... the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[John317]

The point is that the prophecy of Obadiah came true hundreds of years after the prophecy was given.

[BobRyan]

>>Salvation was indeed provided for & absolutely predestined for "all" humanity...<<

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, ...

Coupla things: Writ implies/indicates that that not only was Salvation provided – but that it also – will be provided for – “all” humanity.

Color that ‘Universalism’.

>>...That is not however saying all will accept it.<<

Luke 12:40-55 talks about those who "knew their master's will and did deeds worthy of flogging" vs those who did not know it - and yet did deeds worthy of stripes.

One receives many stripes in the torments of the lake of fire - the other few.

The wicked are 'tormented in fire and brimstone' in Rev 14:10 and there is no escaping it.

"fear him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

No "happy nirvana" is ever promised to the wicked by God.

So in Matt 7 Christ said that WIDE is the road leading to destruction and MANY there are that are on it.

In 2Peter 3 we are told that those who doubt that God will do this - forget the destruction of the world by water - in which only 8 people were saved.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

... how about a solid Biblical text by St Paul?

1 Tim 4:10 ... the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Paul clearly taught that not all will be saved.

God is the Savior of all people in the sense that all people are alive because of Christ. Christ's death gave everyone a second probation. It doesn't mean everyone will eventually be saved.

The entire Bible consistently teaches that many people will be ultimately lost and destroyed. Universalism is nothing but wishful thinking and is false doctrine.

Here's Paul:

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Romans 2:1-16

Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. [2] We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things. [3] Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? [4] Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? [5] But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality.

[12] For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

[jasd]

>>The point is that the prophecy of Obadiah came true hundreds of years after the prophecy was given.<<

Sorry, I can't find the point of reference.

[jasd]

>>One receives many stripes in the torments of the lake of fire - the other few.<<

However, does the “lake of fire” consume?

>>"fear him who is able to destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.<<

Two things: 1) “is able”?—or will? 2) where is mention of the spirit?

>>No "happy nirvana" is ever promised to the wicked by God.<<

Indeed, no “happy” – or otherwise – “nirvana” to any except as believed by the Buddhist.

>>In 2Peter 3 we are told that those who doubt that God will do this - forget the destruction of the world by water - in which only 8 people were saved.<<

That is true according to Writ; however,

1 Pet 3:18 ... being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

what was or is to be the outcome of Jesus Christ’s preaching to other than the eight – whilst He was “quickened by the Spirit”?

[John317]

The point is that the prophecy of Obadiah came true hundreds of years after the prophecy was given.

Originally Posted By: jasd

Sorry, I can't find the point of reference.

Here it is:

Obadiah 1:18

The house of Jacob shall be a fire,

and the house of Joseph a flame,

and the house of Esau stubble;

they shall burn them and consume them,

and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau,

for the Lord has spoken.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

... how about a solid Biblical text by St Paul?

1 Tim 4:10 ... the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

>>Paul clearly taught that not all will be saved.<<

But he did teach exactly that in the simplest and most readily understood manner - as he did re 1 Timothy 4:10.

[jasd]

>>God is the Savior of all people in the sense that all people are alive because of Christ.<< [ed.jasd]

Umm, with all respect: “in the sense” leads to tortured expounding.

>>Christ's death gave everyone a second probation. It doesn't mean everyone will eventually be saved.<<

“And death reigned unto Moses...” What happened thereafter?

>>The entire Bible consistently teaches that many people will be ultimately lost and destroyed. Universalism is nothing but wishful thinking and is false doctrine.<<

1 Tim 4:10 ... the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

[John317]

1 Tim. 4: 10 doesn't say everyone is going to be saved.

Jesus is the Savior of all people because Jesus shed His blood for all people.

Yet almost every book in the Bible shows that not everyone will be saved.

Here are just a few verses that teach this:

Isaiah 1:28

But rebels and sinners shall be broken together,

and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

Isaiah 66:24

"And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Malachi 3:18-4:3

Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. [2] But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. [3] And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 18:6-9

but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

[7] "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! [8] And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. [9] And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

2 Thes. 1:8-10

in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

2 Thes. 2:8-10

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. [9] The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, [10] and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Rev. 19:11-21

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. [12] His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. [13] He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [14] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. [15] From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. [16] On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

[17] Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God, [18] to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great." [19] And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army. [20] And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. [21] And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

[Windsor]

Your writing style is awkward and difficult to understand. Utilizing colloquial American English might make things as plain as Timothy.

[jasd]

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Quote:John3:17

The point is that the prophecy of Obadiah came true hundreds of years after the prophecy was given.

Quote:jasd

Sorry, I can't find the point of reference.

>>Here it is:

Obadiah 1:18

The house of Jacob shall be a fire,

and the house of Joseph a flame,

and the house of Esau stubble;

they shall burn them and consume them,

and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau,

for the Lord has spoken.<<

I can only repeat re the above: “...and we know that – how?”

So, some say this and some say that... I responded to your quote:

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Quote:John317

From reseaching.

What is the last mention in history of the Edomites? Do you know of any after the Jewish Wars?

with referenced sources from within the Jewish community – who, more than anyone else, re the matter, should be knowledgeable, yes?

There exists nothing in historical fact re the proffered text of Obadiah 1:18 which might lead one to assume that that prophecy has been fulfilled. The assertion otherwise is unsustainable.

[John317]

Last time I checked all means all and specially has its own definite connotation, as well.

It does mean "all." It means every last person who ever lived. Jesus is the Savior of all. He died for all.

But just because he died for all mankind doesn't mean all are going to be saved.

How are people saved? By accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

Will all people be saved?

Jesus answers:

Matthew 25:45-46

Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' [46] And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

[John317]

There exists nothing in historical fact re the proffered text of Obadiah 1:18 which might lead one to assume that that prophecy has been fulfilled. The assertion otherwise is unsustainable.

Facts:

The prophecy states:

Here it is:

Obadiah 1:18

The house of Jacob shall be a fire,

and the house of Joseph a flame,

and the house of Esau stubble;

they shall burn them and consume them,

and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau,

for the Lord has spoken.

1) There were Edomites living at the time the prophecy was written.

2) There were Edomites living at the time of Christ.

3) There are no more Edomites alive anywhere on earth. Thus, no survivor for the house of Esau exists.

Ergo: prophecy fulfilled.

[John317]

JASD has been told this before, but he's replied that he doesn't care how many people read his posts or understand them.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

But he did teach exactly that in the simplest and most readily understood manner - as he did re 1 Timothy 4:10.

>>Your writing style is awkward and difficult to understand. Utilizing colloquial American English might make things as plain as Timothy.<<

You have a problem with my above quote? Forsooth! I thought I was more colloquial than formal. However, to humor you –

I am a rude and rustic Br’er Fellow from a fallow thicket – so bear with me, if you please.

Let me ask you – what makes you think that there was intended a Biblically-based ‘healing of the breach’ between Jews and Edomites?

[jasd]

>>house of Esau<<

Oh, okay, ...with the qualifier. I'd, mistakenly, or not, remembered only that you'd claimed that there were no more Edomites (per se).

Otherwise, there are plenty of Edomites who dwell in the 'tents' of the Jews.

[jasd]

>>JASD has been told this before, but he's replied that he doesn't care how many people read his posts or understand them.<<

Indeed, jasd has no patience with the reader who will not invest the least amount of energy to get the gist of the matter – preferring, rather, to gripe.

[John317]

I have no trouble reading your posts, and in fact, some of your writing is rather interesting to me. But I know others do have trouble. Usually writers make an attempt to help readers understand their writing.

I think one thing that bothers members is that you don't use the "quote" "quick quote" buttons. It takes awhile for people to get the hang of how you separate people's quotes from your comments.

[jasd]

>>It does mean "all."<<

Indeed, all means all, unequivocally; moreover, you’ve neglected to address the nexus – “specially" (especially, most of all, above all), which puts the kibosh to your dialogic.

[jasd]

>>I have no trouble reading your posts,<<

That’s because you’re pretty well-rounded (and am not speaking to adiposity).

>>But I know others do have trouble. Usually writers make an attempt to help readers understand their writing.<<

We idiosyncratics do have our affectations and our fetishes.

>>I think one thing that bothers members is that you don't use the "quote" "quick quote" buttons. It takes awhile for people to get the hang of how you separate people's quotes from your comments.<<

Disabuse should I err, but doesn’t my using ‘arrows’ simply reflect their original or traditional use?—howbeit, somewhat modified...

(my eyes fail me – so it’s time to shutdown...)