The Death of Reasonable Doubt...

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If you've been reading the news this week you might have read a headline that went like this..."Execution date set for Troy Davis."

Who is Troy Davis, you say? I've not met Troy but have met his family and I attended a large event for him in Atlanta at the state capitol last fall.

Troy has been on death row for over 20 years and now, once again, an execution date has set for this execution.

PLEASE watch the trailer for Death of a Reasonable Doubt, by Terry Benedict and if you feel so inclined please share the link with your friends and then go to the Amnesty International site to sign the petition to the Georgia Parole Board...Troy's last chance for life.

This case is significant for all of us.

Please watch the trailer and see for your self. Here's the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byrb1YSXxA4 and this the link to Amnesty's website to hear more about Troy's story and to sign a petition for Troy.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/actioncenter/actions/uaa11011.pdf

[Stan]

I would encourage everyone to Facebook like this.

[John317]

Please watch the trailer and see for your self. Here's the link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Byrb1YSXxA4 and this the link to Amnesty's website to hear more about Troy's story and to sign a petition for Troy.

I watched the video at this link but saw no evidence he is innocent. It seems clearly to be mostly a propaganda piece.

I'm not opposed to the death penalty per se. I favor it in the cases of first degree murder and also in cases of torture/rape/murder of children.

I need to see all the evidence from both sides of the story, told as objectively as possibly.

[John317]

Are the following statements by Wikipedia true:

Quote:

Davis was given an opportunity to present new evidence at a hearing in federal court in Savannah in June 2010, but he put on only a paucity of testimony. He did not take the stand in his defense and did not call Sylvester Coles as a witness. He also did not call some of the other witnesses who had given affidavits on his behalf, even though some of them were present in the courthouse. Savannah journalist Patrick Rodgers characterized the hearing as a defeat for Davis, commenting, "Although the defense team had been arguing for a hearing like this since they took over the case, if the atmosphere ... was any implication, they seemed to be wishing they could have a second chance."

[lazarus]

Did you actually watch the video?

No DNA

No Weapon

Key witness implicated as actual shooter

7 of 9 witnesses recanted

It's a trailer not a lawyers brief! Propaganda? Really?

[John317]

Yes, I watched the entire video.

Many people are justifiably convicted of murder without DNA evidence.

Courts and juires do not require a murder weapon in order to convict of murder.

Has it ever been shown that the witness was guilty of the murder? Some thought he might have been the shoorter.

Courts cannot reverse a case simply because witnesses later change their testimony. This would cause total chaos in the court system. Would you favor finding people guilty if witnesses later change in favor of the prosecution? Furthermore, these witnesses did not recant legally.

As you show, there were other witnesses who did not change their mind and were not accused of being guilty of being involved in the crime, and these continued to say that Davis was the shooter.

[lazarus]

John, it's quite interesting and revealing that you would pick that particular paragraph from a lengthy article.

Do you think he is guilty?

How bout this:

On July 16, 2007, the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles granted a ninety-day stay of execution in order to allow the evaluation of evidence presented, including the doubts about Davis' guilt.[67][68] The stay was superseded by the August 2007 decision of the Georgia Supreme Court to grant Davis’ application for discretionary appeal from the denial of his Extraordinary Motion for a New Trial.

On August 17, 2009, the Supreme Court ordered the Savannah federal district court to "receive testimony and make findings of fact as to whether evidence that could not have been obtained at the time of trial clearly establishes [Davis'] innocence."[5][96] Justice John Paul Stevens, joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer wrote that "[t]he substantial risk of putting an innocent man to death clearly provides an adequate justification for holding an evidentiary hearing."

[John317]

John, it's quite interesting and revealing that you would pick that particular paragraph from a lengthy article.

What do you find particularly interesting and revealing about it?

I picked that paragraph because if I was convicted and going to die for a crime I didn't commit, I would have done more than Davis and his lawyers at that hearing, especially since the witnesses were available to be questioned. He did not even take the stand in his own defense at his hearing.

Any attorney would be interested in the result of the hearing that was called for. That hearing was in 2010. What did Davis and his attorneys do? What evdidence did they produce? And did Davis take the stand and testify in his own defense at this extremely important hearing?

[John317]

Do you think he is guilty?

I don't know if he is guilty or not.

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

How bout this:

On July 16, 2007, the Georgia State Board of Pardons and Paroles granted a ninety-day stay of execution in order to allow the evaluation of evidence presented, including the doubts about Davis' guilt.[67][68] The stay was superseded by the August 2007 decision of the Georgia Supreme Court to grant Davis application for discretionary appeal from the denial of his Extraordinary Motion for a New Trial.

On August 17, 2009, the Supreme Court ordered the Savannah federal district court to "receive testimony and make findings of fact as to whether evidence that could not have been obtained at the time of trial clearly establishes [Davis'] innocence."[5][96] Justice John Paul Stevens, joined by Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer wrote that "[t]he substantial risk of putting an innocent man to death clearly provides an adequate justification for holding an evidentiary hearing."

OK. He was given time and opportunity to present evidence for his case of innocence. Why didn't he do it?

At the hearing in June of 2010, Davis didn't put on much evidence in his defense at all. That was the time to do it.

Again, is the following true?

Quote:

Davis was given an opportunity to present new evidence at a hearing in federal court in Savannah in June 2010, but he put on only a paucity of testimony. He did not take the stand in his defense and did not call Sylvester Coles as a witness. He also did not call some of the other witnesses who had given affidavits on his behalf, even though some of them were present in the courthouse.

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More info for anyone who wants to know more about Troy, his case and the international interest in his situation. Guilty or not (I happen to believe his is NOT guilty) it's clear that the death penalty does not work. In addition, we have evidence of many innocent victims being executed and we still keep on supporting the death penalty. Help me understand as how we Christians can support the death penalty with that in mind. Are we willing to take a chance on executing a person who might be innocent just because we think it will deter others from committing murder?

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Sorry, forgot to put the web link in the last post...http://www.amnestyusa.org/actioncenter/actions/uaa11011.pdf

[John317]

What proof is there that the US has executed innocent people?

Are you talking about proof or possibilities?

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Sorry, forgot to put the web link in the last post...http://troyanthonydavis.org/

Not doing to well on putting in the correct links...this is the Troy Davis site with more info...

[John317]

... Help me understand as how we Christians can support the death penalty with that in mind. Are we willing to take a chance on executing a person who might be innocent just because we think it will deter others from committing murder?

Simple. I believe the state has a right to decide how to deal with crime, and that includes the execution of some criminals. The Bible certainly supports this.

Jesus taught that individual believers should forgive their enemies and people who do them harm, and of course we should. However, that doesn't mean people should not be punished or executed for their crimes.

Jesus' teaching to believers doesn't apply to governments. Jesus was not teaching that governments should forgive criminals and let them go free. That would be foolish of any government.

The NT teaching on governments is found in Romans 13: 1-7. It gives the governments and societies the right to pass laws which protect the people from crime.

[tracer]

Some extra reading for you John, but then again, you might not agree. I have a friend, Jeris Bragan, who served 25 years for murder that another person committed. So I'm pretty familiar with situations where people have been wrongly convicted.

Vhttp://www.reprieve.org.uk/articles/2010_02_07_DP_Campaign_Innocence/

[John317]

When I was a Trotskiest in the Young Socialist Alliance in the early 1970s, I was firmly opposed to the death penalty. However, it never occurred to me to oppose the death penalty in Cuba, China, Vietnam, or in Eastern-block countries. Also, if the Revolution had occurred in the USA, I would not have been opposed to the execution of enemies of the socialist state. For Marxists, the opposition to execution is not a moral issue; it is political and tactical.

Would you favor the execution of Davis if you knew he was guilty of the murder of that policeman?

[John317]

If you ever go to prison, you'll find that most people in there don't claim to be innocent. On the contrary they brag about their crimes.

Can you imagine what the other guys would think of you if you go around and tell a bunch of hardened criminals that you are completely innocent and never commit crime? They pick you for a snitch.

It's ok to tell the court and the press that you're not guilty but you really don't want to do that in prison when you have all those others listening to you.

I am not saying there aren't any innocent found guilty. There are. But when you come to the point of being executed, there are so many appeals and so many years now, that it is completely different from being sentenced to a certain number of years.

Some years back there was a famous case of a man who was on death row for about 20 years in New Jersey. He wrote a novel about a case similar to his and claimed he was innocent. After that a lot of people-- including William F. Buckley, Jr.-- signed a petition for him to be freed, which he was. But a few years later, he raped and killed a woman in San Diego. When he was arrested, he confessed and admitted that he had committed the original crime as well. He'd raped and murdered a little girl and left her in the trash. Now that woman in San Diego is dead and the family without their mother or wife simply because the man who should have been executed for killing the little girl was such a great liar.

[John317]

OK, thanks.

[John317]

I am totally opposed to the conviction and punishment of innocent people, but I do favor the conviction and punishment of the guilty. I don't favor life-sentences for all murderers. I don't believe that it is immoral for the state to execute people who have taken the lives of other people. On the contrary, I believe it is immoral for governments to treat the taking of human life so lightly as to allow murderers to go free. The Bible condemns this.

Genesis 9:6

"Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed,

for God made man in his own image."

These are the very words of God. Jesus' words did not annul this. His words are directed to individual believers, not to governments. See again Romans 13: 1-7.

The governments are "God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil." See v. 4.

[John317]

Some extra reading for you John, but then again, you might not agree.

That's OK, tracer. I read lots of things I don't agree with. Sometimes I do change my mind. I'm always open to valid evidence and reasoning.

Here's my experience about these things:

In the late 60s and early 70s, I spent time in two jails, and time in a military stockade. More recently, I also worked 21+ years with juvenile delinquents.

About a year ago, a member of my own family was sentenced to jail time. I often visited this person in the county jail and know what she/he went through there. It isn't pretty, of course, but then jail or prison is never meant to be pretty.

Was this person guilty? Yes. But this person lied to me initially and told me they were innocent. Actually, I now see that it was good that this person was sent to jail. This person told me he/she feels the same.

During those 21+ years, I never met a single boy in that institution who even claimed they were innocent. I dealt closely with literally thousands.

As a matter of fact, quite a few claimed they committed many crimes they were never charged with. Some even told me they had committed murder and were never caught. Some of these boys had a father on death row and they never claimed their dad hadn't done anything wrong to deserve death.

This is not to say no one is innocent in those institutions in the USA, but it is rare. It is more common in Mexico, I know that for a fact. Of course they don't have the death penalty in Mexico. Is that a good thing? NO.

The Mexican government doesn't value human life.

It's well known in Mexico that because of the dire poverty, it is not uncommon for people to be imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit, because they plead guilty in order for their families to receive money while they do prison-time for some wealthy person. The Mexican government is not unaware of this.

[John317]

Some extra reading for you John, but then again, you might not agree.

I watched the video at the following link:

www.reprieve.org.uk/articles/2010_02_07_DP_Campaign_Innocence

While it is possible and even likely that some innocent people have been executed in the United States, the video itself presents people's opinions and conclusions, but shows no proof in a single case that this has happened.

I remember when Caryl Chessman was executed in 1960. I was in the fourth grade, and even then I was interested in the case. I believed he was innocent. Later I read some of his fascinating books. He was a highly intelligent, talented man. He maintained his innocence up to the moment he died. Today, though, having studied Chessman's case further, I'm convinced that he was guilty.

On Caryl Chessman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caryl_Chessman

[LifeHiscost]

It seems by the information I followed up on, that there is a justifiable doubt as to any reliable evidence, of Mr. Davis' guilt.

I wonder if anyone is aware that in the not too distant past, a third of the prisoners in a particular state in America, either already having been executed or were then presently serving time on death row, were found by DNA evidence to be innocent of the charges made against them.

My understanding is that the warden of the prison, in which was found this gross miscarriage of justice, let all the remaining prisoners still on death row, free.

Gives one second thoughts.

God blesses!

[John317]

I wonder if anyone is aware that in the not too distant past, a third of the prisoners in a particular state in America, either already having been executed or were then presently serving time on death row, were found by DNA evidence to be innocent of the charges made against them.

Can you give the link or source for the position that DNA evidence has proven that innocent people in the USA were executed for crimes they didn't commit?

It is true that DNA evidence has led to people being released from Death Row. But where is the DNA evidence that people already executed were innocent?

[LifeHiscost]

I have a friend, Jeris Bragan, who served 25 years for murder that another person committed. So I'm pretty familiar with situations where people have been wrongly convicted.

I read the book, and although I do think no one should have their lives forfeited without hard evidence, I do believe many innocent people die as a result of criminals being released to continue preying upon the public. Releasing "close proximity" criminals doesn't seem to answer the problem, but one would have to admit, protecting the public from predators can be a cache 22 situation.

God blesses!

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I wonder if anyone is aware that in the not too distant past, a third of the prisoners in a particular state in America, either already having been executed or were then presently serving time on death row, were found by DNA evidence to be innocent of the charges made against them.

Can you give the link or source for the position that DNA evidence has proven that innocent people in the USA were executed for crimes they didn't commit?

It is true that DNA evidence has led to people being released from Death Row. But where is the DNA evidence that people already executed were innocent?

It should not be lost upon us that in the Bible many innocent people were convicted and put to death and yet God did not demand the end to the death penalty. I'm with you on judging individuals on a case by case basis.